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> Welcome to the slippery slope..., Porsche 6-cylinder conversion
JmuRiz
post Jul 15 2017, 07:37 AM
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Looks lucky thus far. My previously rebuilt 2.7 core engine was rebuilt by someone that didn't know what they were doing.
Now I know why they didn't feel it was making the power they expected.

It'll be fixed right this time, but you should be able to reuse lots of those parts when they're cleaned up. You could always build up your case to Henry's 2.45 combo if you have budget
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Optimusglen
post Jul 15 2017, 07:49 PM
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Case split, nothing scary!

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bretth
post Jul 15 2017, 10:55 PM
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QUOTE(Optimusglen @ Jul 15 2017, 09:49 PM) *

Case split, nothing scary!


Nothing scary but minimum $2k just to make it bolt back together again. I wonder if anyone has ever been lucky enough to put a mag case back together without needing machining. Keep up the good work.
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Optimusglen
post Jul 16 2017, 05:33 AM
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QUOTE(bretth @ Jul 15 2017, 11:55 PM) *

QUOTE(Optimusglen @ Jul 15 2017, 09:49 PM) *

Case split, nothing scary!


Nothing scary but minimum $2k just make it bolt back together again. I wonder if anyone has ever been lucky enough to put a mag case back together without needing machining. Keep up the good work.


I had read that all mag cases need machining.
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mb911
post Jul 16 2017, 08:17 AM
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QUOTE(bretth @ Jul 15 2017, 08:55 PM) *

QUOTE(Optimusglen @ Jul 15 2017, 09:49 PM) *

Case split, nothing scary!


Nothing scary but minimum $2k just make it bolt back together again. I wonder if anyone has ever been lucky enough to put a mag case back together without needing machining. Keep up the good work.



I did on my last 2.7 just put bearings and and bolted back together. Ran great. Still does last I heard. Though it was out of a 60k 74 911 with no thermal reactors.
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GeorgeRud
post Jul 16 2017, 08:59 AM
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I took the easy way and had Henry rebuild my 2.7, and would follow his advice on anything with these engines. I had a Timesert pull out, so had them replaced with the Casesavers.

Be sure that the internal intermediate shaft stud is at least timecerted as well. Henry also modifies the idler arms with a longer bearing surface (like the later Carrera design) to help avoid binding of the arms. Definitely use the stop collars if you retain the original style tensioners as well.

A properly assembled 2.7 is a wonderful motor in a 914!
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mb911
post Jul 16 2017, 10:40 AM
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QUOTE(GeorgeRud @ Jul 16 2017, 06:59 AM) *

I took the easy way and had Henry rebuild my 2.7, and would follow his advice on anything with these engines. I had a Timesert pull out, so had them replaced with the Casesavers.

Be sure that the internal intermediate shaft stud is at least timecerted as well. Henry also modifies the idler arms with a longer bearing surface (like the later Carrera design) to help avoid binding of the arms. Definitely use the stop collars if you retain the original style tensioners as well.

A properly assembled 2.7 is a wonderful motor in a 914!


Henry has done all of my machine work and provided all of my parts including oil pump mod, bearings, rods, arp rod bolts, ported my heads, p&cs .. He is realistic about builds.
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Optimusglen
post Jul 18 2017, 01:14 PM
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Initial inspection and measurement taking tonight. Made up a few sheets to keep track of measurements to compare them to spec. Also so I can note installed stud height, hole condition, presence of inserts, etc.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1500405274.1.jpg)
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mepstein
post Jul 18 2017, 01:32 PM
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QUOTE(bretth @ Jul 16 2017, 12:55 AM) *

QUOTE(Optimusglen @ Jul 15 2017, 09:49 PM) *

Case split, nothing scary!


Nothing scary but minimum $2k just make it bolt back together again. I wonder if anyone has ever been lucky enough to put a mag case back together without needing machining. Keep up the good work.

yes. the early cases often don't need machining. and there are ways to tighten a case so that you can bring it back to true and have the crank spin smooth. you have to tighten the case bolts a certain way. That kind of stuff isn't in the rebuild books. Its the experienced engine builders that know the tricks. A lot of the guys on Pellican just parrot what many people say about every build needing $2K of machine work. Ollie's doesn't mind.
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bretth
post Jul 18 2017, 01:44 PM
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QUOTE(mepstein @ Jul 18 2017, 03:32 PM) *

QUOTE(bretth @ Jul 16 2017, 12:55 AM) *

QUOTE(Optimusglen @ Jul 15 2017, 09:49 PM) *

Case split, nothing scary!


Nothing scary but minimum $2k just make it bolt back together again. I wonder if anyone has ever been lucky enough to put a mag case back together without needing machining. Keep up the good work.

yes. the early cases often don't need machining. and there are ways to tighten a case so that you can bring it back to true and have the crank spin smooth. you have to tighten the case bolts a certain way. That kind of stuff isn't in the rebuild books. Its the experienced engine builders that know the tricks. A lot of the guys on Pellican just parrot what many people say about every build needing $2K of machine work. Ollie's doesn't mind.


This is very interesting. I have a 2.0 and a 2.2 long block and I was debating on selling off both to get a later aluminum case 911 motor. But my 2.0 motor may only have 25k miles on it and may not need much machining other than a reseal. I have read that putting a type 1 VW motor in an oven while torqued together can also help minimize some of the machining needed for alignment issues.
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Optimusglen
post Jul 18 2017, 08:38 PM
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Good news! Crank journals are all perfectly in spec, almost all right down the middle.

Need to machine up an adapter to check crank runout. If that checks out then I'll find some place to inspect for cracks. Is magnaflux still the standard?

Crank to intermediate shaft gear, as well as the distributor gear. Few nicks in the soft gear, but nothing bad IMO, I'll clean it up a bit and reuse it.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1500480454.1.jpg)

All of the big end rod bearings have significantly more wear than the crank main bearings.

Rod #1
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1500480454.2.jpg)

Rod #2
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1500480454.3.jpg)

Rod #3 (probably the worst of them)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1500480454.4.jpg)

Rod #4
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1500480455.5.jpg)

Rod #5
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1500480455.6.jpg)

Rod #6
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1500480455.7.jpg)

Finally, I didn't clean this part up at all but wanted to snap a pic of the cylinder markings.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1500480455.8.jpg)
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mb911
post Jul 19 2017, 02:52 PM
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Good news is that rebuilt rods are fairly inexpensive..

Ps I would not hesitate to het those cast cylinders nikisiled I did (actually Henry did) because he said by comparison I am running a much more mild engine then allot of people did. Also said stock headstuds are fine with cast cylinders.
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Optimusglen
post Aug 22 2017, 09:09 AM
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Ok, been a long time without an update.

Picked up a new set of Micrometers, and a dial bore gauge. Micrometers measure down to .0001" and bore gauge is metric, measures down to 0.01mm.

Remeasured the crank, all measurements are verified. it's well within spec on all accounts. I will be getting it polished and magnafluxed at a local place on the recommendation of Aaron.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1503414556.1.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1503414557.2.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1503414557.3.jpg)

I machined up this bracket to hold the dial gauge, works pretty well.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1503414557.4.jpg)

Went to a local car show, man I'm glad that it's running and driving. having the 4-cyl in there is good for morale. Took some photos on the hour long drive home.

1st stop - Afton
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1503414558.5.jpg)

2nd stop - St.Paul
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1503414558.6.jpg)

Then I got on the road and headed for Minneapolis. While I was driving I noted that the hwy surface was terrible. At one point I looked in my mirror to see some object bouncing down the road behind me. It was headed right for a Prius, who swerved but still took it right in the kisser. Unsure if it was from the 914 or not I was pulling over to see what the damage was to their car but they just drove away... ok then. I pulled off to check out my car, nothing seemed off, must have just been some road debris that I hit.

3rd stop - Minneapolis
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1503414558.7.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1503414559.8.jpg)

And that's when I noticed it. The mystery object tumbling down the highway that smacked the Prius? It was my exhaust tip. It was rusted right at the exit of the muffler and the bumpy roads must have shaken it loose. Looked back at my photos from the day.

Cornfield: it was there, in it's usual location and angle.
St. Paul: it was starting to give, tilted down.
Minneapolis: gonzo.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

Started tearing down and seeing what I'm dealing with on the carbs.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1503414559.9.jpg)

From my research these Zenith 40 TINs are pretty great carbs, just not a lot of room to hop them up for more power. i.e. getting different venturies and jets might be a chore for non-stock configurations.

So I have two sets, I can mix and match parts to get one good set and return the leftovers to Aaron.

One set had a detonation through the intake which started a small fire, the venturies melt easily and a few were beyond repair. This set of carbs is complete, but in poor shape. It's also the set that came with the engine.

The second set is in much better shape, but it's not complete. I'll be rebuilding the second set, and pulling needed parts off the first set.


This brings be to something I'd been thinking about since I got the engine.


There's a constant battle between two sides of who I am. One side is saying more power, bigger pistons, forged everything, high compression, go big or go home. While I'm in there might as well do PMO carbs, and dual plug it.

The other side of me is saying to rebuild the stock engine, keep the pistons and cylinders since they're in good shape. New rings and a cleanup hone maybe, then button it all back together with new bearings and gaskets after any case work is done. I'm unsure what to do.

Going big, I'd have a really peppy motor with a ton of money into it. It'd be fast, plenty fast for the street. Realistically to build it bigger it'll be 2-3 years since I don't have a lot of cash to throw at it all at once.

On the other side, I could have a 2.2 six in there and running next spring. Sure it'd only have 125hp, but that's still a huge jump over the 4-cyl. To add weight to this option, I've always been more of a fan of driving a slow car fast. Being able to wring out a car on backroads is a blast, with lower power cars you can do that without risking tickets/arrests/lives.

I'm not really concerned with adding value to the car, at this point I think the sum of it's parts are worth more, and I don't see that changing with either build option. Plus, my wife has expressed that I'm not allowed to sell the car. Which is ok, I want to keep it around.

Started cleaning up the pistons and cylinders.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1503414559.10.jpg)

Tore down one of the heads, didn't grab any measurements but there's definitely more play in the valve stems/guides than I'd like. I assumed I would be doing valve guides and everything that goes with it but inside I secretly hoped that they'd all be tight and perfect.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1503414560.11.jpg)

Family news:

Things are pretty crazy right now. My wife's sister is moving to Maine. She had been our childcare and it was working wonderfully. She lives just a few miles from us and is right on the way to work for each of us. We did pay her, but it was much less than what a typical childcare center would charge, and we had the benefit of Wren being with someone we know and trust 100%.

She gave us 2 weeks notice. It's hard to blame her though, they need to get moved and settled before school starts for their two kids. It's just a crappy situation.

Even worse, my wife went in for an ultrasound to check on the stents. They clotted back up. This is clotting through the blood thinners, and she's been at the high end of her INR range for weeks. Just bad bad news. She'll be getting a CT scan tomorrow to see if there's anything going on that the doctors hadn't seen before. Then meeting with the hematologist later in the week to see if there are other medications or options that could stop the clotting. Praying that we don't need to do Lovenox (shots) every 12 hours for the rest of her life. She's 29 years old.

In the short term, we'll be going back in to the hospital for 2-3 days for more procedures. Many of which are the same ones she's had before, i.e. ultrasound catheter in her leg over night, sucking out clot, balooning up veins, etc. They'll check the stents and see if they need to be replaced or if they can be salvaged, and hopefully there will be some good news somewhere in there.

Baby is healthy, for the most part. She has a bit of a cold currently. We're constantly in awe of how lucky we got with her, she is a great little squirt. Awesome sleeper, super chill, and rarely has meltdowns.

Thank you all for your positive thoughts and prayers, we appreciate you.


So, back to the car/engine...

Been talking with people that have much more experience than I on these motors. Based on everything so far, I'll be bolting the case back together with the new bearings and the crank, torquing to spec and seeing how it turns. I'll only be sending it out if there is binding of some sort. I'll check bearing clearance with plasti-gauge for a little piece of mind as well. If all looks and feels good it'll get reassembled with new bearings/seals/gaskets and run as-is. I'm sure I'll get some flac from some, but that's ok. With current budgetary limitations (yay childcare!) I wouldn't have this thing built for years to come, in which time I would surely loose interest.
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iamchappy
post Aug 22 2017, 03:07 PM
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I'd love to stop in while your slapping it together, might learn something..
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Optimusglen
post Aug 22 2017, 03:27 PM
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QUOTE(iamchappy @ Aug 22 2017, 04:07 PM) *

I'd love to stop in while your slapping it together, might learn something..


haha, don't you have the 930 turbo 914-6 with flares? I feel like I should be the one learning from you.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1503437227.1.jpg)
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iamchappy
post Aug 22 2017, 06:36 PM
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It all happens so fast!
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I'm pretty good but not great at body work, and painting, and fabricating and figuring things out and making it work. But I have never assembled a porsche engine case up, 4 or 6.So always excited to learn. Matt Johnson built my engine with Henry Schmidt of super tech consulting him on the engines unique build using offset rod bushings and such.
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porschetub
post Aug 23 2017, 01:36 AM
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Running stockish 2.2 T headers and upgraded ignition,
30mm vents .
125 mains,
52 idles,
air correctors are stock,
going really well as per last tune,not hard to set up if you do bench tuning before,set up pump jets and general setting first.
You can get more power from these carbs ,lots of parts for them now too.

Edit more to add;
My research indicated these were more of a emissions carb hence the small stock venturies and matching small main and idle jets,a quick calculation got me to use 30mm venturies which are pretty much spot on for 2.2 litre capacity.
Main wear points are the spindles themselves,the bushes seem to hold up well enough,the ends of the pump rods wear in the pivots as do the throttle cam roller pins.
Be very careful with the small steel air bleed screws,if seized they can break very easily,PO of my carbs had broken one off so I had to drill it out...rather scary.
The accelerator pump spray jets can be blocked ,I found 2 were that way on my left carb,found that out when I bench tested with full fuel bowls.
Buy the PMO made float level tool as it is handy for checking bowl fuel levels and needle and seat operation.
You can pretty much buy all the parts but looks like you have a few spares ,good luck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif) .
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Optimusglen
post Sep 11 2017, 09:01 AM
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I've been collecting parts, i.e. all the bearings, new rod bolts, gaskets/o-rings/etc. No real work has been done on the engine otherwise.

Also been 3D modelling the engine, but I have a different thread for that.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=315481&hl=
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1504535564.1.jpg)

I had the car out for the annual Eurowerks fall drive (Saturday) and car show (Sunday)
I put about 200 miles on the car in all and it was great.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1505142104.1.jpg)
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Optimusglen
post Nov 6 2017, 08:33 AM
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Update time, been holding off on moving too far forward until I get a chance to 3D model the case, but I did get something done.

Swung down to a friends shop and stuck it in a big parts washer he has.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1509978806.1.jpg)

The inside is pretty clean so I stuck the two case halves in lightly bolted together.

Pic is a bit blurry, thanks potato phone, but it's mostly cleaned up now.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1509978806.2.jpg)

I'm going to go over in by hand and clean a bit more, but now it's ready for more inspection and for me to model it.
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Optimusglen
post Feb 27 2018, 08:26 AM
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Been awhile since I've posted any project news for this, it's been cold here in MN and my garage heater isn't set up. On top of that I've had the 3D model project and the baby keeping me busy.

I've been collecting parts and planning though. New valves and springs, heads are ready to go to the machine shop to get rebuilt which will probably be next month at some point.

Also scored a set of MSDS headers. Went with the 1.625" O.D. headers. Wanted to be able to increase the displacement in the future if I want to, and these shouldn't be too big for the 2.2.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-19709-1519741601.1.jpg)

I've got the engine case half 3D models and the carb 3D models pretty much done, so that means it's getting to the point of assembly. Or at lest further checking... my next step is to assemble the crank in the case, torque, and check for binding.
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