Did the 911 Keep the 914 from being all it could be?, Was the 914 De-tuned from its full potential? Options

[Tom_T]

I am interested in the design and production aspect of the 914. What I am trying to learn about was if the 914's may have been De-tuned from what the original design specs were?" So that would have come from the beginning of the program.

Tricky question and I have no clue what the "original design specs" were, but I'm inclined to think no, it wasn't de-tuned from the original design. Given that the original concept for the car was a bridge between an upper end VW sports car and and entry level Porsche, if anything, they overshot in the chassis design by making essentially a streetable racing chassis that cornered like nothing else, and was arguably superior to the 911. The de-tuning was from choice of drive train and other bolt on components which I believe were driven more by what was needed to adhere to the original concept rather than deviating from it.

Of course, the 914 could easily be developed as a 911 slayer but I think Porsche was smart to keep that in check. It doesn't make sense for a company to compete against themselves and even worse if the competition is knocking down something as iconic as the 911. How many stories have we heard about people back in the day who wanted a 911 but couldn't afford one so left the dealer with a new 914 instead? It seems to have worked for them.

I don't have time to check it now, but IIRC the 1.7L 914 T4 was a few more HP, than was the 1.7 as used in the 411 VW.

Maybe another eager beaver can check the VW specs for a `70 411.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/santa_smiley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
///////

[Tom_T]

Yeah George, I included that water cooled & smog issue as well briefly near the end of my write-up - see the bold below, but good additional facts!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/santa_smiley.gif)
Tom
///////

I just skimmed this Tom, very good analysis. I may have overlooked it, but one reason that Porsche discontinued the 914 (and were planning on discontinuing the 911, was that it was much easier to control the emissions on a water cooled car that virtually ran at 180 degrees all of the time, and that the water cooled build was much cheaper than the air cooled. ALSO it was much cheaper, easier, and more conventional to build a front engined rear wheel wheeled drive car, and would be easier to get through the crash standards. All in all, would save Porsche a bunch of money making these front engined water cooled cars.
The 911 replacement was to be the 928, but it was not well received and sales were terrible. If it was not for continuing the 911 at all costs, Porsche would have tanked. The 924 DID replace the 914 however, truly a very sorry car, but it tided porsche over until they could improve it into the 944 and finally the 968

I have heard several stories about Porsche not wanting to do anything to mess with the 911 program. Like the one about the 914S.
It's my understanding that in 1973 when they came out with the 2 ltr motor, they launched in the US and a 914 S. It had its own brochure, all of the options and was shut down by Porsche because they did not want to compete with the 911S.
I am not trying to open this can of worms with anyone about is the 914 S real or not. What I want to know is, as protective as Porsche was about the 911 program, How did this affect the 914. Were the 914 De-tuned from what the original design specs were?

Matty - as others have pointed out, it was a more complex demise, than just not competing with the 911s.

As with the 2003> VW-Porsche JV vehicle collaboration Cayennes saving Porsche's financial butz - nearly in bankruptcy from 1996-2004 -

Likewise, our 914s' 118,000+/- in sales over 6 model years 70-76 (69 counting full 70 MY) saved Porsche's financial butz, because they could no longer sell large numbers of 911s, 912s were too expensive to build & sell at an entry level - read high sales volume - price due to their production costs & prices increases from their inception in `64. In fact the ongoing sales of 64-65 356's masked this economic reality with their parallel sales during those 2 MYs.

So why get rid of the butz-saving 914s? There was a combination of reasons:

1. Overpriced Body Shells from VW/Karmann Plant:

The VW reneging on the original "handshake deal" on the price to sell the 914 bodies to Porsche to produce the detuned 110 HP 914-6's put their sales pricing too close to the the nicer fitted out & higher 125 HP 911-T in 70-71 MYs - so most buyers never looked beyond that & shifting foibles, & would pay the extra +/- $500 for a 911-T - so it never really got rolling.

Also note that the 916 was never implemented because it's price was almost that of the comparably equipped 911E/911S of the time, & it would've certainly cut into some 911 sales with a comparable HP motor, while the 911 sales were also declining due to the currency escalation problem discussed below. The 916 project was discontinued after the first 11 prototypes, which were actually very well received in the market & automotive press, but the pricing of $14,000+/- was a question mark - given the oil crisis driven global recession of the mid-1970's - also made worse in the USA by the end of space race & Vietnam War driven production after 72-74>.


2. Continued High Body/Vehicle Pricing for 73-76 914s:

This higher than expected pricing continued for all 914-4s from 74> MYs - after Porsche took over the VW-Porsche JV - so it thereafter also increased the production cost basis of all 914s thereafter - as seen in the ever increasing prices - making the 914-2.0s also too close for comfort relative to better fitted-out & more powerful 911-Ts (& other base 911 models) - despite the by then recognized better handling 914s.

(Note that - IIRC - Porsche didn't begin factory racing with the 911s, until the 914-6 was waning.)


3. Currency Escalation Driving up Import Prices:

Added to the above, the W. German Deutche Mark (DM) was rapidly escalating against the US Dollar after then President Nixon took the dollar off the Gold standard, & it was allowed to float in the world monetary markets, in order to help keep USA products more competitive - but that likewise made other imports including cars more expensive after the dollar was no longer set by the US (Fed & Treasury Depts.).

This can clearly be seen in the rapid price escalation of the 73 Porsches of all types 914 & 911, & carrying on into 76 MY & beyond - further complicating Porsche's competitiveness in the USA, where 60% of their cars were then sold - which also affected their cars from 77> MYs, leading to their later financial viability crisis which the Cayenne solved.

I recently described in a reply to another similar post (maybe one of yours) as to how this price escalation to DM vs. dollar currency escalation was the actual demise of the "914S" nomenclature in the USA only (Note that both Japan kept "914S" & the UK kept 914 SC" thru to 76 MY), which I recently also added to my "914S".

It was NOT the much alleged concerns of PCA 911 owners, nor of Porsche concerns over competing with their top of the line 911S - think about those - who would EVER think a 80-95 HP 4-banger 914S was competition for a 911S with upwards of 180-210 HP - really, REALLY!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) - but ignore logic & facts to continue believing in those urban myths if you must.

Quite simply - Porsche could no longer keep selling a fully loaded 73 "914S" at it's original Aug 72 - March 73 price of $5299 (WCPOE), so they increased it to $7299 Mrch - June 73, & introduced a more basic "914 Sport" with only Performance Group options as their new "price leader 2.0" at $5299" for March - June 73.

Thereafter for 74> MYs Porsche further reduced their pricing risk by decoupling ALL options & option groups from ALL 914s, & made everything for extra cost - & they increased the cost of the options/groups - while the 2.0's base price stayed the same as what the prior 73 MY fully loaded "914S" had been increased to of $7299 - but now without ANY options!

Both the 75 & 76 MYs saw increases to base prices & options - & were all now higher than what the pre-73 DM escalation 911 prices had been!

There were 2 exceptions to offering options for a somewhat of a deal price - but both were low production number - thereby limited their losses - the 74 MY 914 1000 LE/CanAms (EDIT: 1000 500 each color scheme) which actually only "included" a few options, & the close-out 76 MY 914-2.0s - which was done to get rid of them ASAP before what was to come next - & even then they were adding to the base price for the supposedly included options.

EDIT: ... & I wasn't counting the similar Euro/RoW 100,000th 914 Special editions, but that's another number of them above & beyond the LEs here. I'm not going to look it up, but someone else can chime in with the number if they so choose.


In reality at he end of the 914's run - you had no choice in 76 MY 2.0 options it was however they were built & shipped, & you paid the price - most of the ones that I looked at before buying my used 3 year old 73 "914S" were all priced at $8500+/- & over, with the anemic CA-Smog choked 78-80 HP!!

If you were of car buying or dreaming age then - you know what I mean about how ALL of the cool imported sports cars went way out of reach for most of us!

If you look at the production/sales numbers for the 914s at the info section here, you can see how this currency driven price escalation bled off 914 sales to just a few - after peaking in 73 MY - as it also did with 911 & 912E & 930 sales. Monthly sales rates on all Porsche models would show that drop off starting in March 73, as it did with ALL import car makers' vehicles.


4. Another Failed VW/Audi-Porsche JV Enters the Fray:

As they say on the TV commercials - "Butt Wait!" -

VW, Audi & Porsche were all concerned over being able to meet with aircooled engines, the soon to be & ever increasing smog control limits of California (60-70% of the USA Sales, which still ran 60-75% of worldwide Porsche sales = 36 - 52.5% of worldwide sales to California) - plus the other 49 states under EPA were soon to adopt the California emissions standards too nationwide.

Ergo, Porsche began designing their watercooled V8 for the 928, & VW/Audi started designing 4 & 5 cyl. inline watercooled engines for their Golf, Fox, 3000, etc. models - & they commissioned Porsche to design a VW/Audi sports coupe using their new I-4 watercooled motor.

VW/Audi went so far as to schedule complete retooling of the Karmann plant to build theri new sports car/coupe - but then backed out & cancelled the product. You will recall that ALL 76 MY 914-2.0s were built prior to Dec. 75, so that the Karmann plant could be retooled for that new car, & Porsche back-filled by installing the 2.0 Air-boxer in 911 shells - creating the short lived 912E produced at their Stuttgart plant's 911 line for +/- Jan - July 76 for 76 MY only.

Porsche had also taken over the cancelled VW/Audi sports car/coupe, & began producing it as their own 924 in 77 MY on.

So the 914 had no production line after Dec. 75, & there was no possible way to continue it's production, because all of the tooling had been worn out & never replaced - even if they wanted to move it to another plant from Karmann.


There are other factors which came into play for the 914's demise, but some urban myth about Porsche not liking the 914 to save the 911 wasn't one of them.

In fact, Porsche itself thought that the 911 line would be replaced by an all watercooled line of 924, 928 & other spin-off models by the early 1990's, & the last aircooled 911s were produced in 1993 MY due to the problems with aircooled engines not meeting the by then 50 State smog regulations.

However, Porsche did react to customer lash-back at their original watercooled planned replacements, & then went on in the mid to late 1980s to start design of the waterboxer six later used in the 996 & 986 lines of 911s & Boxsters/Caymans - with the 996 & 986 lines initially sharing full body/mechanical front end designs from the windscreen forward in order to save on costs - which were introduced as their diminishing sales 928s were phased out in 95-96 MYs.

As with most business issues - & car manufacturing is & always was a business - it was never some "911 jealousy" - but a complex set of world economic & automotive regulatory issues.

Happy Holidays! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/santa_smiley.gif)
Tom
///////

[Tom_T]

FWIW: Tesla loses money on every car they make.

Yeah, our son contributed to their losses last year Sept. 2017, then it got pummeled by that big hailstorm in Colorado Springs this past Aug. 2018 damaging all glass & body panels - so I don't know if that added to Tesla's losses.

But Elon just opened his LA tunnel, so he's used to throwing money at things! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/santa_smiley.gif)
Tom
///////

[Matty900]

I have heard several stories about Porsche not wanting to do anything to mess with the 911 program. Like the one about the 914S.
It's my understanding that in 1973 when they came out with the 2 ltr motor, they launched in the US and a 914 S. It had its own brochure, all of the options and was shut down by Porsche because they did not want to compete with the 911S.
I am not trying to open this can of worms with anyone about is the 914 S real or not. What I want to know is, as protective as Porsche was about the 911 program, How did this affect the 914. Were the 914 De-tuned from what the original design specs were?

matty900
I am truly happy you posted this thread, it has been very interesting to see the information pour out. Cool stuff and we can all learn as a result. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/white914.jpg)

I am trying to learn more about the design aspect so I can see what is the best way a 914 can be set up. If it was indeed detuned, what can you do to get the most out of the car? My car is a 1.7 and I am very happy with where it is now but there is always more that can be done right? I am trying to keep it in line with my experiment of what is the 1.7 really capable of without doing a larger motor. I am just trying to get as much joy out of the car as I can. Learning and tinkering with it are just part of that process. Happy to share the 914 sickness with all of you guys. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[sithot]

Tom_T Link: The Legend of the "914 S" & "914 SC", Myth or Fact?

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=107851

[mepstein]

I have heard several stories about Porsche not wanting to do anything to mess with the 911 program. Like the one about the 914S.
It's my understanding that in 1973 when they came out with the 2 ltr motor, they launched in the US and a 914 S. It had its own brochure, all of the options and was shut down by Porsche because they did not want to compete with the 911S.
I am not trying to open this can of worms with anyone about is the 914 S real or not. What I want to know is, as protective as Porsche was about the 911 program, How did this affect the 914. Were the 914 De-tuned from what the original design specs were?

matty900
I am truly happy you posted this thread, it has been very interesting to see the information pour out. Cool stuff and we can all learn as a result. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/white914.jpg)

I am trying to learn more about the design aspect so I can see what is the best way a 914 can be set up. If it was indeed detuned, what can you do to get the most out of the car? My car is a 1.7 and I am very happy with where it is now but there is always more that can be done right? I am trying to keep it in line with my experiment of what is the 1.7 really capable of without doing a larger motor. I am just trying to get as much joy out of the car as I can. Learning and tinkering with it are just part of that process. Happy to share the 914 sickness with all of you guys. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Six conversion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[JmuRiz]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

one of us one of us one of us....

[bbrock]

I am trying to learn more about the design aspect so I can see what is the best way a 914 can be set up. If it was indeed detuned, what can you do to get the most out of the car? My car is a 1.7 and I am very happy with where it is now but there is always more that can be done right? I am trying to keep it in line with my experiment of what is the 1.7 really capable of without doing a larger motor. I am just trying to get as much joy out of the car as I can. Learning and tinkering with it are just part of that process. Happy to share the 914 sickness with all of you guys. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Can't remember if you already have sway bars, if not, they make a big difference in fun factor. I loved the two 1.7s I owned. Fun cars and great fuel economy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Tom_T]

I am trying to learn more about the design aspect so I can see what is the best way a 914 can be set up. If it was indeed detuned, what can you do to get the most out of the car? My car is a 1.7 and I am very happy with where it is now but there is always more that can be done right? I am trying to keep it in line with my experiment of what is the 1.7 really capable of without doing a larger motor. I am just trying to get as much joy out of the car as I can. Learning and tinkering with it are just part of that process. Happy to share the 914 sickness with all of you guys. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Matty,

An easy HP/TQ upgrade for the 1.7s & 1.8s is to put on a 2.0 HE Exhaust (recco a used SSI so it won't rust in PNW) with the 2L Banana Muffler & proper hanger.

They bolt right on to a stock 1.7, parts/set-ups can be found for a reasonable price here etc., & you'll gain maybe +/-5% HP just by letting the engine breathe better with the larger 2.0 sized diameter tubes. So you might get around 85 HP out of it without touching the engine for a big build or swap.

But if your 1.7 is at all nice, then box up & store your original 1.7 exhaust/muffler/etc. set-up, in case you want to sell the 914/4 in the future to a collector or CW type who cares about those details.

If you ever need to rebuild the motor, then would be the time to consider either using the higher CR Euro/RoW P&Cs or to bore/stroke it to a 1919cc or whatever the mix is - cuz you'll be paying for all of those parts to do a stock rebuild anyway - so why not upbuild it then for a marginally smaller price (labor is about the same either way).

My buddy Jerry has a reason to keep his OO `71 /4 with +/-61k miles as stock as possible (& it has some dealer installed "options" from new already) - but not everybody is in his boat to maximize value of a collector car that he's babied for 47+ years. Heck - he rolls it in & out of his garage to hand wash it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)


.... & that is the original Bahia Red Paint! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drooley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/santa_smiley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
///////

[Breaker]

[/quote]
I am trying to learn more about the design aspect so I can see what is the best way a 914 can be set up. If it was indeed detuned, what can you do to get the most out of the car? My car is a 1.7 and I am very happy with where it is now but there is always more that can be done right? I am trying to keep it in line with my experiment of what is the 1.7 really capable of without doing a larger motor. I am just trying to get as much joy out of the car as I can. Learning and tinkering with it are just part of that process. Happy to share the 914 sickness with all of you guys. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
[/quote]

Look up a guy "raygreenwood" on The Samba, he seems to know just about every trick in the unwritten book to get the most out of the 1.7.

[thelogo]

I think the 914 being held back
By the factory is total b.s (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif)

914 was held back by the people who own 911s
Pure wine and cheese thing .
If people would have gone from the 911 to 14
In the 70s and demanded and payed $$$porsche
For the bigger powered engines then porsche $$
Would have taken the money .

People stayed loyal to their ass endeers 911s and history is history
Its not on porsche or vw , they only follow the wallets .


Having driven a f.i 1.7 for 8 years with zero issues
I would be very hesitant to mess with the formula by trying to add power (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)

Now that I've driven a 914 with 150 horses
I now know the car can handle wayyyy more power
Then the stock 1.7

And if we are talking race tracks that is one thing but
No matter what engine .

For the 914 to compete with or be better then a 911
In a commuter or grocery getter role or little kids in the back seat pick up from school
Or longer distance comfort role .
(Current 911 is basically a gt car w.msrp 89k )

No amount of engine power will change any of that .

So 914 is the best on paper with a high hp engine.


911 is still daz peoples car (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)