I have heard several stories about Porsche not wanting to do anything to mess with the 911 program. Like the one about the 914S.
It's my understanding that in 1973 when they came out with the 2 ltr motor, they launched in the US and a 914 S. It had its own brochure, all of the options and was shut down by Porsche because they did not want to compete with the 911S.
I am not trying to open this can of worms with anyone about is the 914 S real or not. What I want to know is, as protective as Porsche was about the 911 program, How did this affect the 914. Were the 914 De-tuned from what the original design specs were?
Full Version: Did the 911 Keep the 914 from being all it could be?
Well, considering that the 914/6 shipped with the most anemic 911 engine in their lineup, i'd say it's pretty clear they did not want the 914 to compete with the 911.
And so followed the demise of the 916! 
The 914 (from what I understand) helped save Porsche from a difficult financial time but when the gentleman's agreement for pricing the chassis ran out, the price was too much to keep sales going. The 914-6 was never a good seller during the early 70's and the 914-6 was too close in performance and price to a 911. Porsche also planned to make the 924 the next intro Porsche, feeling the watercooled engine was the future. At one time, the 928 was slated to take over for the 911 but never caught on enough to justify dropping the 911.
One of the first 914-6 was a really hot car with a hot rod engine and lots of performance mods. Porsche knew how to make them go but the 911 has always been the flagship.
I think the 914 had it's time but wasn't an 80's car.
One of the first 914-6 was a really hot car with a hot rod engine and lots of performance mods. Porsche knew how to make them go but the 911 has always been the flagship.
I think the 914 had it's time but wasn't an 80's car.
VW Chair Heinz Nordoff, who was responsible for his side of the deal with Ferry Porsche dies, Kurt Lotz takes over. Beginning of the end.
The irony is the fellow put in charge of the project for Porsche, Ferdinand Piech, would eventually become chairman/CEO of VW.
The 914S was real but only in '73. The use of "S" disappears in '74 brochures.
The irony is the fellow put in charge of the project for Porsche, Ferdinand Piech, would eventually become chairman/CEO of VW.
The 914S was real but only in '73. The use of "S" disappears in '74 brochures.
I guessing but it's reasonable to think the breaking of the gentleman's agreement also ended Porsche's interest in any future improvement/development of the 914.
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Dec 15 2018, 07:55 AM) 
I guessing but it's reasonable to think the breaking of the gentleman's agreement also ended Porsche's interest in any future improvement/development of the 914.
I'm sure it didn't help.
the 914-6 was purposely detuned installing 110 main jets instead of 125s like the 911t of the same year.
Mostly since the 914 had the guise of being a VW and the four cylinder marketed as such in Europe, The 914-6 and 916 fell under the same spell and the cars were not in any way accepted by the masses as a Porsche. Porsche did not detune the 916 however, it was faster, lighter, wider, had a longer wheel base than the 911, and was actually the superior sports car. However Porsche would have, because of their agreement with VW, to sell the car for more than their flagship 911s, and that killed the car. NO ONE would have paid more for a 916 than a 911S, so the car would have been a miserable failure.
Mostly since the 914 had the guise of being a VW and the four cylinder marketed as such in Europe, The 914-6 and 916 fell under the same spell and the cars were not in any way accepted by the masses as a Porsche. Porsche did not detune the 916 however, it was faster, lighter, wider, had a longer wheel base than the 911, and was actually the superior sports car. However Porsche would have, because of their agreement with VW, to sell the car for more than their flagship 911s, and that killed the car. NO ONE would have paid more for a 916 than a 911S, so the car would have been a miserable failure.
Even without the NARP stigma, I think Porsche was in a precarious situation with this car. As George illustrates, the platform was so good that there wasn't a lot of development that could be done before the car was threatening the iconic flagship model. The 914's niche as the affordable Porsche made sense and developing it out of that niche would have been a questionable business decision. I think it was inevitable that the 914 performance would always be below the 911. That said, I think the development of the 2.0/4 was substantial development in that it produced near 6 cylinder performance in a lighter and cheaper power plant. Not a bad achievement at all.
I think the gentlemen's agreement impacted the long-term viability of the model more than it impacted the development for performance. I think another factor was that Porsche had another agreement with Audi that went south and opened the opportunity for Porsche to transition their introductory model to a more modern style and technology without the NARP baggage. It made sense on a lot of levels.
I think the gentlemen's agreement impacted the long-term viability of the model more than it impacted the development for performance. I think another factor was that Porsche had another agreement with Audi that went south and opened the opportunity for Porsche to transition their introductory model to a more modern style and technology without the NARP baggage. It made sense on a lot of levels.
Yes the 916 would have been a 911 slayer. At one point a British 916 owner sent his car back to the factory for a 2.8 RS engine and full RS suspension.
I am just glad have one now....woooohoooo!!!!
gg
gg
Back about 1969 the 911T was also restricted so that the performance difference between it and the 911E & 911S were significant. One trick was a restrictive gasket in the exhaust. Once replaced, there was an immediate performance boost.
Talking with Harry Bytzek, his 914/6 GT was competitive with the 2L 906 engine until the 2.8 engine came out. This indicates that the handling of the 914/6 was superior to that of the 911. Small wonder then that the mid-engine design was used for many of the race cars.
Talking with Harry Bytzek, his 914/6 GT was competitive with the 2L 906 engine until the 2.8 engine came out. This indicates that the handling of the 914/6 was superior to that of the 911. Small wonder then that the mid-engine design was used for many of the race cars.
This behavior didn't end with the end of the 914. Note that the mid-engine Boxster/Cayman platform always have lesser engines than similar model 911 models have. It's ironic that Porsche keeps building the mid-engine cars as the entry level (so to speak) cars, while they are obviously the superior layout.
QUOTE(Matty900 @ Dec 14 2018, 08:18 PM)
I have heard several stories about Porsche not wanting to do anything to mess with the 911 program. Like the one about the 914S.
It's my understanding that in 1973 when they came out with the 2 ltr motor, they launched in the US and a 914 S. It had its own brochure, all of the options and was shut down by Porsche because they did not want to compete with the 911S.
I am not trying to open this can of worms with anyone about is the 914 S real or not. What I want to know is, as protective as Porsche was about the 911 program, How did this affect the 914. Were the 914 De-tuned from what the original design specs were?
Matty - as others have pointed out, it was a more complex demise, than just not competing with the 911s.
As with the 2003> VW-Porsche JV vehicle collaboration Cayennes saving Porsche's financial butz - nearly in bankruptcy from 1996-2004 -
Likewise, our 914s' 118,000+/- in sales over 6 model years 70-76 (69 counting full 70 MY) saved Porsche's financial butz, because they could no longer sell large numbers of 911s, 912s were too expensive to build & sell at an entry level - read high sales volume - price due to their production costs & prices increases from their inception in `64. In fact the ongoing sales of 64-65 356's masked this economic reality with their parallel sales during those 2 MYs.
So why get rid of the butz-saving 914s? There was a combination of reasons:
1. Overpriced Body Shells from VW/Karmann Plant:
The VW reneging on the original "handshake deal" on the price to sell the 914 bodies to Porsche to produce the detuned 110 HP 914-6's put their sales pricing too close to the the nicer fitted out & higher 125 HP 911-T in 70-71 MYs - so most buyers never looked beyond that & shifting foibles, & would pay the extra +/- $500 for a 911-T - so it never really got rolling.
Also note that the 916 was never implemented because it's price was almost that of the comparably equipped 911E/911S of the time, & it would've certainly cut into some 911 sales with a comparable HP motor, while the 911 sales were also declining due to the currency escalation problem discussed below. The 916 project was discontinued after the first 11 prototypes, which were actually very well received in the market & automotive press, but the pricing of $14,000+/- was a question mark - given the oil crisis driven global recession of the mid-1970's - also made worse in the USA by the end of space race & Vietnam War driven production after 72-74>.
2. Continued High Body/Vehicle Pricing for 73-76 914s:
This higher than expected pricing continued for all 914-4s from 74> MYs - after Porsche took over the VW-Porsche JV - so it thereafter also increased the production cost basis of all 914s thereafter - as seen in the ever increasing prices - making the 914-2.0s also too close for comfort relative to better fitted-out & more powerful 911-Ts (& other base 911 models) - despite the by then recognized better handling 914s.
(Note that - IIRC - Porsche didn't begin factory racing with the 911s, until the 914-6 was waning.)
3. Currency Escalation Driving up Import Prices:
Added to the above, the W. German Deutche Mark (DM) was rapidly escalating against the US Dollar after then President Nixon took the dollar off the Gold standard, & it was allowed to float in the world monetary markets, in order to help keep USA products more competitive - but that likewise made other imports including cars more expensive after the dollar was no longer set by the US (Fed & Treasury Depts.).
This can clearly be seen in the rapid price escalation of the 73 Porsches of all types 914 & 911, & carrying on into 76 MY & beyond - further complicating Porsche's competitiveness in the USA, where 60% of their cars were then sold - which also affected their cars from 77> MYs, leading to their later financial viability crisis which the Cayenne solved.
I recently described in a reply to another similar post (maybe one of yours) as to how this price escalation to DM vs. dollar currency escalation was the actual demise of the "914S" nomenclature in the USA only (Note that both Japan kept "914S" & the UK kept 914 SC" thru to 76 MY), which I recently also added to my "914S".
It was NOT the much alleged concerns of PCA 911 owners, nor of Porsche concerns over competing with their top of the line 911S - think about those - who would EVER think a 80-95 HP 4-banger 914S was competition for a 911S with upwards of 180-210 HP - really, REALLY!?
- but ignore logic & facts to continue believing in those urban myths if you must. Quite simply - Porsche could no longer keep selling a fully loaded 73 "914S" at it's original Aug 72 - March 73 price of $5299 (WCPOE), so they increased it to $7299 Mrch - June 73, & introduced a more basic "914 Sport" with only Performance Group options as their new "price leader 2.0" at $5299" for March - June 73.
Thereafter for 74> MYs Porsche further reduced their pricing risk by decoupling ALL options & option groups from ALL 914s, & made everything for extra cost - & they increased the cost of the options/groups - while the 2.0's base price stayed the same as what the prior 73 MY fully loaded "914S" had been increased to of $7299 - but now without ANY options!
Both the 75 & 76 MYs saw increases to base prices & options - & were all now higher than what the pre-73 DM escalation 911 prices had been!
There were 2 exceptions to offering options for a somewhat of a deal price - but both were low production number - thereby limited their losses - the 74 MY 914 1000 LE/CanAms (EDIT:
EDIT: ... & I wasn't counting the similar Euro/RoW 100,000th 914 Special editions, but that's another number of them above & beyond the LEs here. I'm not going to look it up, but someone else can chime in with the number if they so choose.
In reality at he end of the 914's run - you had no choice in 76 MY 2.0 options it was however they were built & shipped, & you paid the price - most of the ones that I looked at before buying my used 3 year old 73 "914S" were all priced at $8500+/- & over, with the anemic CA-Smog choked 78-80 HP!!
If you were of car buying or dreaming age then - you know what I mean about how ALL of the cool imported sports cars went way out of reach for most of us!
If you look at the production/sales numbers for the 914s at the info section here, you can see how this currency driven price escalation bled off 914 sales to just a few - after peaking in 73 MY - as it also did with 911 & 912E & 930 sales. Monthly sales rates on all Porsche models would show that drop off starting in March 73, as it did with ALL import car makers' vehicles.
4. Another Failed VW/Audi-Porsche JV Enters the Fray:
As they say on the TV commercials - "Butt Wait!" -
VW, Audi & Porsche were all concerned over being able to meet with aircooled engines, the soon to be & ever increasing smog control limits of California (60-70% of the USA Sales, which still ran 60-75% of worldwide Porsche sales = 36 - 52.5% of worldwide sales to California) - plus the other 49 states under EPA were soon to adopt the California emissions standards too nationwide.
Ergo, Porsche began designing their watercooled V8 for the 928, & VW/Audi started designing 4 & 5 cyl. inline watercooled engines for their Golf, Fox, 3000, etc. models - & they commissioned Porsche to design a VW/Audi sports coupe using their new I-4 watercooled motor.
VW/Audi went so far as to schedule complete retooling of the Karmann plant to build theri new sports car/coupe - but then backed out & cancelled the product. You will recall that ALL 76 MY 914-2.0s were built prior to Dec. 75, so that the Karmann plant could be retooled for that new car, & Porsche back-filled by installing the 2.0 Air-boxer in 911 shells - creating the short lived 912E produced at their Stuttgart plant's 911 line for +/- Jan - July 76 for 76 MY only.
Porsche had also taken over the cancelled VW/Audi sports car/coupe, & began producing it as their own 924 in 77 MY on.
So the 914 had no production line after Dec. 75, & there was no possible way to continue it's production, because all of the tooling had been worn out & never replaced - even if they wanted to move it to another plant from Karmann.
There are other factors which came into play for the 914's demise, but some urban myth about Porsche not liking the 914 to save the 911 wasn't one of them.
In fact, Porsche itself thought that the 911 line would be replaced by an all watercooled line of 924, 928 & other spin-off models by the early 1990's, & the last aircooled 911s were produced in 1993 MY due to the problems with aircooled engines not meeting the by then 50 State smog regulations.
However, Porsche did react to customer lash-back at their original watercooled planned replacements, & then went on in the mid to late 1980s to start design of the waterboxer six later used in the 996 & 986 lines of 911s & Boxsters/Caymans - with the 996 & 986 lines initially sharing full body/mechanical front end designs from the windscreen forward in order to save on costs - which were introduced as their diminishing sales 928s were phased out in 95-96 MYs.
As with most business issues - & car manufacturing is & always was a business - it was never some "911 jealousy" - but a complex set of world economic & automotive regulatory issues.
Happy Holidays!
Tom
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Porsche was racing 911’s on a very high level in the late 60’s. Long before the introduction of the 914-6.
Tom T. has pretty well nailed it
QUOTE(mepstein @ Dec 15 2018, 01:09 PM)
Porsche was racing 911’s on a very high level in the late 60’s. Long before the introduction of the 914-6.
I stand corrected on that one point Mark, & it was only a side point anyway, which doesn't affect the story of why the 914 was dropped.
The rest is accurate.
But by golly - you caught me on something!
Tom
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I remember at one point in late 79 or early 80 , the exchange rate fell to 1.47 DM to 1$
QUOTE(73-914 @ Dec 15 2018, 05:30 PM)
I remember at one point in late 79 or early 80 , the exchange rate fell to 1.47 DM to 1$
I think that was just before the 2nd oil crisis, but in gold standard days IIRC in was only 0.7's DM to $1 - so even that drop was double the pre-73 rate - but I've not rechecked that - it's just IIRC (Mark ;-).
TT
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QUOTE(73-914 @ Dec 15 2018, 07:30 PM)
I remember at one point in late 79 or early 80 , the exchange rate fell to 1.47 DM to 1$
“Gray market” cars started rolling in about this time.
Just curious - what was the 911 sales volume during the years that the 118,000 914’s were sold?
So, you believe that a total of 2000 CanAm Limited Editions were produced? Everything I've seen to date suggests that only 1000, including both color schemes, were produced. I have a Bumblebee.
QUOTE(scallyk9 @ Dec 16 2018, 02:30 PM)
So, you believe that a total of 2000 CanAm Limited Editions were produced? Everything I've seen to date suggests that only 1000, including both color schemes, were produced. I have a Bumblebee.
1000 is correct. 500 of each color.
QUOTE(arne @ Dec 15 2018, 12:54 PM)
This behavior didn't end with the end of the 914. Note that the mid-engine Boxster/Cayman platform always have lesser engines than similar model 911 models have. It's ironic that Porsche keeps building the mid-engine cars as the entry level (so to speak) cars, while they are obviously the superior layout.
I often wonder how many guys out there are junkyard shopping for larger displacement 911 H2O engines to swap into their Caymans & Boxsters
QUOTE(Johny Blackstain @ Dec 16 2018, 12:25 PM)
QUOTE(arne @ Dec 15 2018, 12:54 PM)
This behavior didn't end with the end of the 914. Note that the mid-engine Boxster/Cayman platform always have lesser engines than similar model 911 models have. It's ironic that Porsche keeps building the mid-engine cars as the entry level (so to speak) cars, while they are obviously the superior layout.
I often wonder how many guys out there are junkyard shopping for larger displacement 911 H2O engines to swap into their Caymans & Boxsters
All of the above +100. One day I'll own another Cayman, but this time with a built stroker 3.8L out of a Carrera S.
QUOTE(scallyk9 @ Dec 16 2018, 12:30 PM)
So, you believe that a total of 2000 CanAm Limited Editions were produced? Everything I've seen to date suggests that only 1000, including both color schemes, were produced. I have a Bumblebee.
Naw - just a brain fart, as I bounced between listing Bees & Scicles each or all, but didn't correct my numbers with the final. Good Catch - I'll edit it now.
... & I wasn't counting the Euro/RoW 100,000th 914 Special editions, but that's another number of them above & beyond the LEs here.
Tom
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QUOTE(gereed75 @ Dec 16 2018, 10:02 AM)
Just curious - what was the 911 sales volume during the years that the 118,000 914’s were sold?
While not a direct answer, it does spell out 911 sales "per generation"
https://newsroom.porsche.com/fallback/en/pr...ions-13735.html
unless you want to believe this one:
https://flatsixes.com/porsche-culture/porsc...rs-porsche-911/
911 sales were small enough that the company new they needed an entry level volume product
I would guess, 3-4,000/year combined 911T/E/S versions, mostly T's due to price.
fwiw, a base 70 911 T would have had steel wheels and a 4 speed. The 914/6 at least had a 5speed and often alloys (while steels were standard). The 911 also weighed a little more.. so a well driven 914/6 could certainly "keep up" with a base 911.
That said, Porsche sliced the pie pretty well back then.. no different than today when you line up the price/performance of Boxster/Cayman, BoxsterS, Caymane S / 911. Buy an optioned up Box/Cay or base 911? hmmm.. same decisions..
Porsche did the same type of thing with the 944 Turbo. They put in a reduced performance chip so it didn't embarrass the 911 Turbo.
I think there's also something interesting here, the 1970 Le Mans winners, in order:
1 Porsche 917
2 Porsche 917
3 Porsche 908
4 Ferrari 512
5 Ferrari 512
6 PORSCHE 914 GT!!!
7 Porsche 911S
followed by 6 (SIX!) 911S, none of whom qualified because of insufficient distance covered. These are the OVERALL winners, and it was 914 GT with 1991 cc, NOT a 916.
When your "entry level" is kicking your flagship's butt, and going off to play with the big boys, you know something's wrong.
Another four 911Ss did't even finish, as well as two 910s, a 907, and no less than 5 917s...for various reasons: engine, transmission, throttle, or accident.
That's quite an achievement, and i think it was a team run by the French importer, Sonauto.
I remember reading about an experiment which showed something similar:
356 vs. 550 around the same track. 550 is faster, duh. Now take the engine from the 550, put it in the 356, and it goes a quite a bit faster...but still not as fast as the 550 WITH THE 356'S ENGINE! More chassis is faster than more engine, in this instance
1 Porsche 917
2 Porsche 917
3 Porsche 908
4 Ferrari 512
5 Ferrari 512
6 PORSCHE 914 GT!!!
7 Porsche 911S
followed by 6 (SIX!) 911S, none of whom qualified because of insufficient distance covered. These are the OVERALL winners, and it was 914 GT with 1991 cc, NOT a 916.
When your "entry level" is kicking your flagship's butt, and going off to play with the big boys, you know something's wrong.
Another four 911Ss did't even finish, as well as two 910s, a 907, and no less than 5 917s...for various reasons: engine, transmission, throttle, or accident.
That's quite an achievement, and i think it was a team run by the French importer, Sonauto.
I remember reading about an experiment which showed something similar:
356 vs. 550 around the same track. 550 is faster, duh. Now take the engine from the 550, put it in the 356, and it goes a quite a bit faster...but still not as fast as the 550 WITH THE 356'S ENGINE! More chassis is faster than more engine, in this instance
That 914-6GT had a great run at Le Mans but the 914-6 was pretty much a dud at the dealership. They didn’t sell well so Porsche phased them out. Eventually, sales stalled with the 914-4 so Porsche dropped them. It doesn’t make much difference how it happened, once the 914’s stopped being profitable, Porsche needed to build cars that would turn a profit. That philosophy is evident in the cars that Porsche builds now. High end, high profit cars.
QUOTE(mepstein @ Dec 17 2018, 07:35 PM)
That 914-6GT had a great run at Le Mans but the 914-6 was pretty much a dud at the dealership. They didn’t sell well so Porsche phased them out. Eventually, sales stalled with the 914-4 so Porsche dropped them. It doesn’t make much difference how it happened, once the 914’s stopped being profitable, Porsche needed to build cars that would turn a profit. That philosophy is evident in the cars that Porsche builds now. High end, high profit cars.
Porsche is far more profitable than BMW or Mercedes. About €17,000 per car.
Ferrari outpaces them all with a profit around €69,000 per car!
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Dec 15 2018, 10:35 AM)
QUOTE(Matty900 @ Dec 14 2018, 08:18 PM)
I have heard several stories about Porsche not wanting to do anything to mess with the 911 program. Like the one about the 914S.
It's my understanding that in 1973 when they came out with the 2 ltr motor, they launched in the US and a 914 S. It had its own brochure, all of the options and was shut down by Porsche because they did not want to compete with the 911S.
I am not trying to open this can of worms with anyone about is the 914 S real or not. What I want to know is, as protective as Porsche was about the 911 program, How did this affect the 914. Were the 914 De-tuned from what the original design specs were?
"Matty - as others have pointed out, it was a more complex demise, than just not competing with the 911s."
"It was NOT the much alleged concerns of PCA 911 owners, nor of Porsche concerns over competing with their top of the line 911S - think about those - who would EVER think a 80-95 HP 4-banger 914S was competition for a 911S with upwards of 180-210 HP - really, REALLY!?
- but ignore logic & facts to continue believing in those urban myths if you must." Happy Holidays!
Tom
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Wow! Thank you Tom and everyone else. I am always impressed by what I learn from you guys
I was actually not aware of the 911 owners urban myth part. I am not denying that the 73 911S were spectacular cars with obviously a lot more horsepower (Although it was cool to watch a 914-6 beat all of the 911's at Rennsport this year)
I am interested in the design and production aspect of the 914. What I am trying to learn about was if the 914's may have been De-tuned from what the original design specs were?" So that would have come from the beginning of the program. I figure if anyone would know it would be this group.
I had an interesting conversation with Trevor Frank at Rennsport as he gave me a tour of his Ginther 914-4. He was telling me about the Ginther program and the goal to show what the cars were actually capable of doing if they would have been allowed to form the start.
Obviously, economics play a part in this and it may not just be about not wanting to interfere with sales of with the 911 program. It may have also been about keeping the car as affordable as possible.
For example.
QUOTE(dr914@autoatlanta.com @ Dec 15 2018, 07:28 AM)
the 914-6 was purposely detuned installing 110 main jets instead of 125s like the 911t of the same year.
able failure.
QUOTE(davep @ Dec 15 2018, 08:20 AM)
Back about 1969 the 911T was also restricted so that the performance difference between it and the 911E & 911S were significant. One trick was a restrictive gasket in the exhaust. Once replaced, there was an immediate performance boost.
QUOTE(AZBanks @ Dec 17 2018, 09:31 AM)
Porsche did the same type of thing with the 944 Turbo. They put in a reduced performance chip so it didn't embarrass the 911 Turbo.
QUOTE(73-914 @ Dec 15 2018, 06:30 PM)
I remember at one point in late 79 or early 80 , the exchange rate fell to 1.47 DM to 1$
I was in Germany from Jan -June 1970 and the exchange rate was close to 4:1. Falling that much more than doubled the cost.
Bruce
QUOTE(sithot @ Dec 17 2018, 05:50 PM)
Porsche is far more profitable than BMW or Mercedes. About €17,000 per car.
I wonder what those numbers would look like if broken out as profit per model?
I don't know if Porsche releases them, or would do so - but I wonder if the Cayenne & Macan are higher profit margins - or the more traditional sports cars & Panamera?
For the "Big 3" USA vehicle makers, their per vehicle profit margin is more than double for trucks & SUVs - over the cars.
So if you're wondering why Ford & GM have cancelled their compact, mid-sized & full sized cars & closed plants - it is NOT driven by actual sales volumes, even if they are off by a teens-percentage, since the total numbers made & sold are still sizeable & profitable for them. Heck the fleet sales & rental companies alone could justify keeping those production lines open!
They are simply trying to push more people into higher profit Trucks, SUVs & CUVs!!
Same thing as the Big 3 spreading the false myth about pick-up trucks being the only safe towing vehicle - even telling people that more capable tow vehicles like the Cayenne, VW Touareg & Audi Q7 are not capable due to them being a few inches shorter & a few hundred pounds lighter - when in fact they are the more stable TV platforms. I get that BS a lot on the Airstream Forums from the "Big Truck Only Guys".
Another factor encouraging them to push for trucks/SUVs is that - if they're classified as trucks, then they're subject to lower MPG levels than are cars under the CAFE limits (even still after the recent rollback of them by the Trump Administration). So they have to work less hard & put in less expensive emissions controls into the "trucks" - adding to profitability!
Ergo - my wondering if the Cayenne & Macan are likewise more profitable than are their cars.
Tom
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Cayenne, Boxster and some other models are very proffitae. I’m not sure they are even made in Germany.
Where the cayenne shares a chassis with some other brands - VW, Audi, ect, I’m guessing the 911 chassis is just for the 911.
We just got a smashed Panamera hybrid in for insurance. Owner paid $150K. I imagine there’s a good profit margin on that car.
Porsche will never build an intro model again. No reason to. They have their place in the market well established and it’s not building low cost cars. I think the big 3 US auto makers are coming to the same conclusion. $50k pickups are more profitable than $15k econo cars.
Where the cayenne shares a chassis with some other brands - VW, Audi, ect, I’m guessing the 911 chassis is just for the 911.
We just got a smashed Panamera hybrid in for insurance. Owner paid $150K. I imagine there’s a good profit margin on that car.
Porsche will never build an intro model again. No reason to. They have their place in the market well established and it’s not building low cost cars. I think the big 3 US auto makers are coming to the same conclusion. $50k pickups are more profitable than $15k econo cars.
FWIW: Tesla loses money on every car they make.
I just skimmed this Tom, very good analysis. I may have overlooked it, but one reason that Porsche discontinued the 914 (and were planning on discontinuing the 911, was that it was much easier to control the emissions on a water cooled car that virtually ran at 180 degrees all of the time, and that the water cooled build was much cheaper than the air cooled. ALSO it was much cheaper, easier, and more conventional to build a front engined rear wheel wheeled drive car, and would be easier to get through the crash standards. All in all, would save Porsche a bunch of money making these front engined water cooled cars.
The 911 replacement was to be the 928, but it was not well received and sales were terrible. If it was not for continuing the 911 at all costs, Porsche would have tanked. The 924 DID replace the 914 however, truly a very sorry car, but it tided porsche over until they could improve it into the 944 and finally the 968
I have heard several stories about Porsche not wanting to do anything to mess with the 911 program. Like the one about the 914S.
It's my understanding that in 1973 when they came out with the 2 ltr motor, they launched in the US and a 914 S. It had its own brochure, all of the options and was shut down by Porsche because they did not want to compete with the 911S.
I am not trying to open this can of worms with anyone about is the 914 S real or not. What I want to know is, as protective as Porsche was about the 911 program, How did this affect the 914. Were the 914 De-tuned from what the original design specs were?
Matty - as others have pointed out, it was a more complex demise, than just not competing with the 911s.
As with the 2003> VW-Porsche JV vehicle collaboration Cayennes saving Porsche's financial butz - nearly in bankruptcy from 1996-2004 -
Likewise, our 914s' 118,000+/- in sales over 6 model years 70-76 (69 counting full 70 MY) saved Porsche's financial butz, because they could no longer sell large numbers of 911s, 912s were too expensive to build & sell at an entry level - read high sales volume - price due to their production costs & prices increases from their inception in `64. In fact the ongoing sales of 64-65 356's masked this economic reality with their parallel sales during those 2 MYs.
So why get rid of the butz-saving 914s? There was a combination of reasons:
1. Overpriced Body Shells from VW/Karmann Plant:
The VW reneging on the original "handshake deal" on the price to sell the 914 bodies to Porsche to produce the detuned 110 HP 914-6's put their sales pricing too close to the the nicer fitted out & higher 125 HP 911-T in 70-71 MYs - so most buyers never looked beyond that & shifting foibles, & would pay the extra +/- $500 for a 911-T - so it never really got rolling.
Also note that the 916 was never implemented because it's price was almost that of the comparably equipped 911E/911S of the time, & it would've certainly cut into some 911 sales with a comparable HP motor, while the 911 sales were also declining due to the currency escalation problem discussed below. The 916 project was discontinued after the first 11 prototypes, which were actually very well received in the market & automotive press, but the pricing of $14,000+/- was a question mark - given the oil crisis driven global recession of the mid-1970's - also made worse in the USA by the end of space race & Vietnam War driven production after 72-74>.
2. Continued High Body/Vehicle Pricing for 73-76 914s:
This higher than expected pricing continued for all 914-4s from 74> MYs - after Porsche took over the VW-Porsche JV - so it thereafter also increased the production cost basis of all 914s thereafter - as seen in the ever increasing prices - making the 914-2.0s also too close for comfort relative to better fitted-out & more powerful 911-Ts (& other base 911 models) - despite the by then recognized better handling 914s.
(Note that - IIRC - Porsche didn't begin factory racing with the 911s, until the 914-6 was waning.)
3. Currency Escalation Driving up Import Prices:
Added to the above, the W. German Deutche Mark (DM) was rapidly escalating against the US Dollar after then President Nixon took the dollar off the Gold standard, & it was allowed to float in the world monetary markets, in order to help keep USA products more competitive - but that likewise made other imports including cars more expensive after the dollar was no longer set by the US (Fed & Treasury Depts.).
This can clearly be seen in the rapid price escalation of the 73 Porsches of all types 914 & 911, & carrying on into 76 MY & beyond - further complicating Porsche's competitiveness in the USA, where 60% of their cars were then sold - which also affected their cars from 77> MYs, leading to their later financial viability crisis which the Cayenne solved.
I recently described in a reply to another similar post (maybe one of yours) as to how this price escalation to DM vs. dollar currency escalation was the actual demise of the "914S" nomenclature in the USA only (Note that both Japan kept "914S" & the UK kept 914 SC" thru to 76 MY), which I recently also added to my "914S".
It was NOT the much alleged concerns of PCA 911 owners, nor of Porsche concerns over competing with their top of the line 911S - think about those - who would EVER think a 80-95 HP 4-banger 914S was competition for a 911S with upwards of 180-210 HP - really, REALLY!? - but ignore logic & facts to continue believing in those urban myths if you must.
Quite simply - Porsche could no longer keep selling a fully loaded 73 "914S" at it's original Aug 72 - March 73 price of $5299 (WCPOE), so they increased it to $7299 Mrch - June 73, & introduced a more basic "914 Sport" with only Performance Group options as their new "price leader 2.0" at $5299" for March - June 73.
Thereafter for 74> MYs Porsche further reduced their pricing risk by decoupling ALL options & option groups from ALL 914s, & made everything for extra cost - & they increased the cost of the options/groups - while the 2.0's base price stayed the same as what the prior 73 MY fully loaded "914S" had been increased to of $7299 - but now without ANY options!
Both the 75 & 76 MYs saw increases to base prices & options - & were all now higher than what the pre-73 DM escalation 911 prices had been!
There were 2 exceptions to offering options for a somewhat of a deal price - but both were low production number - thereby limited their losses - the 74 MY 914 1000 LE/CanAms (EDIT:1000 500 each color scheme) which actually only "included" a few options, & the close-out 76 MY 914-2.0s - which was done to get rid of them ASAP before what was to come next - & even then they were adding to the base price for the supposedly included options.
EDIT: ... & I wasn't counting the similar Euro/RoW 100,000th 914 Special editions, but that's another number of them above & beyond the LEs here. I'm not going to look it up, but someone else can chime in with the number if they so choose.
In reality at he end of the 914's run - you had no choice in 76 MY 2.0 options it was however they were built & shipped, & you paid the price - most of the ones that I looked at before buying my used 3 year old 73 "914S" were all priced at $8500+/- & over, with the anemic CA-Smog choked 78-80 HP!!
If you were of car buying or dreaming age then - you know what I mean about how ALL of the cool imported sports cars went way out of reach for most of us!
If you look at the production/sales numbers for the 914s at the info section here, you can see how this currency driven price escalation bled off 914 sales to just a few - after peaking in 73 MY - as it also did with 911 & 912E & 930 sales. Monthly sales rates on all Porsche models would show that drop off starting in March 73, as it did with ALL import car makers' vehicles.
4. Another Failed VW/Audi-Porsche JV Enters the Fray:
As they say on the TV commercials - "Butt Wait!" -
VW, Audi & Porsche were all concerned over being able to meet with aircooled engines, the soon to be & ever increasing smog control limits of California (60-70% of the USA Sales, which still ran 60-75% of worldwide Porsche sales = 36 - 52.5% of worldwide sales to California) - plus the other 49 states under EPA were soon to adopt the California emissions standards too nationwide.
Ergo, Porsche began designing their watercooled V8 for the 928, & VW/Audi started designing 4 & 5 cyl. inline watercooled engines for their Golf, Fox, 3000, etc. models - & they commissioned Porsche to design a VW/Audi sports coupe using their new I-4 watercooled motor.
VW/Audi went so far as to schedule complete retooling of the Karmann plant to build theri new sports car/coupe - but then backed out & cancelled the product. You will recall that ALL 76 MY 914-2.0s were built prior to Dec. 75, so that the Karmann plant could be retooled for that new car, & Porsche back-filled by installing the 2.0 Air-boxer in 911 shells - creating the short lived 912E produced at their Stuttgart plant's 911 line for +/- Jan - July 76 for 76 MY only.
Porsche had also taken over the cancelled VW/Audi sports car/coupe, & began producing it as their own 924 in 77 MY on.
So the 914 had no production line after Dec. 75, & there was no possible way to continue it's production, because all of the tooling had been worn out & never replaced - even if they wanted to move it to another plant from Karmann.
There are other factors which came into play for the 914's demise, but some urban myth about Porsche not liking the 914 to save the 911 wasn't one of them.
In fact, Porsche itself thought that the 911 line would be replaced by an all watercooled line of 924, 928 & other spin-off models by the early 1990's, & the last aircooled 911s were produced in 1993 MY due to the problems with aircooled engines not meeting the by then 50 State smog regulations.
However, Porsche did react to customer lash-back at their original watercooled planned replacements, & then went on in the mid to late 1980s to start design of the waterboxer six later used in the 996 & 986 lines of 911s & Boxsters/Caymans - with the 996 & 986 lines initially sharing full body/mechanical front end designs from the windscreen forward in order to save on costs - which were introduced as their diminishing sales 928s were phased out in 95-96 MYs.
As with most business issues - & car manufacturing is & always was a business - it was never some "911 jealousy" - but a complex set of world economic & automotive regulatory issues.
Happy Holidays!
Tom
///////
The 911 replacement was to be the 928, but it was not well received and sales were terrible. If it was not for continuing the 911 at all costs, Porsche would have tanked. The 924 DID replace the 914 however, truly a very sorry car, but it tided porsche over until they could improve it into the 944 and finally the 968
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Dec 15 2018, 11:35 AM)
QUOTE(Matty900 @ Dec 14 2018, 08:18 PM)
I have heard several stories about Porsche not wanting to do anything to mess with the 911 program. Like the one about the 914S.
It's my understanding that in 1973 when they came out with the 2 ltr motor, they launched in the US and a 914 S. It had its own brochure, all of the options and was shut down by Porsche because they did not want to compete with the 911S.
I am not trying to open this can of worms with anyone about is the 914 S real or not. What I want to know is, as protective as Porsche was about the 911 program, How did this affect the 914. Were the 914 De-tuned from what the original design specs were?
Matty - as others have pointed out, it was a more complex demise, than just not competing with the 911s.
As with the 2003> VW-Porsche JV vehicle collaboration Cayennes saving Porsche's financial butz - nearly in bankruptcy from 1996-2004 -
Likewise, our 914s' 118,000+/- in sales over 6 model years 70-76 (69 counting full 70 MY) saved Porsche's financial butz, because they could no longer sell large numbers of 911s, 912s were too expensive to build & sell at an entry level - read high sales volume - price due to their production costs & prices increases from their inception in `64. In fact the ongoing sales of 64-65 356's masked this economic reality with their parallel sales during those 2 MYs.
So why get rid of the butz-saving 914s? There was a combination of reasons:
1. Overpriced Body Shells from VW/Karmann Plant:
The VW reneging on the original "handshake deal" on the price to sell the 914 bodies to Porsche to produce the detuned 110 HP 914-6's put their sales pricing too close to the the nicer fitted out & higher 125 HP 911-T in 70-71 MYs - so most buyers never looked beyond that & shifting foibles, & would pay the extra +/- $500 for a 911-T - so it never really got rolling.
Also note that the 916 was never implemented because it's price was almost that of the comparably equipped 911E/911S of the time, & it would've certainly cut into some 911 sales with a comparable HP motor, while the 911 sales were also declining due to the currency escalation problem discussed below. The 916 project was discontinued after the first 11 prototypes, which were actually very well received in the market & automotive press, but the pricing of $14,000+/- was a question mark - given the oil crisis driven global recession of the mid-1970's - also made worse in the USA by the end of space race & Vietnam War driven production after 72-74>.
2. Continued High Body/Vehicle Pricing for 73-76 914s:
This higher than expected pricing continued for all 914-4s from 74> MYs - after Porsche took over the VW-Porsche JV - so it thereafter also increased the production cost basis of all 914s thereafter - as seen in the ever increasing prices - making the 914-2.0s also too close for comfort relative to better fitted-out & more powerful 911-Ts (& other base 911 models) - despite the by then recognized better handling 914s.
(Note that - IIRC - Porsche didn't begin factory racing with the 911s, until the 914-6 was waning.)
3. Currency Escalation Driving up Import Prices:
Added to the above, the W. German Deutche Mark (DM) was rapidly escalating against the US Dollar after then President Nixon took the dollar off the Gold standard, & it was allowed to float in the world monetary markets, in order to help keep USA products more competitive - but that likewise made other imports including cars more expensive after the dollar was no longer set by the US (Fed & Treasury Depts.).
This can clearly be seen in the rapid price escalation of the 73 Porsches of all types 914 & 911, & carrying on into 76 MY & beyond - further complicating Porsche's competitiveness in the USA, where 60% of their cars were then sold - which also affected their cars from 77> MYs, leading to their later financial viability crisis which the Cayenne solved.
I recently described in a reply to another similar post (maybe one of yours) as to how this price escalation to DM vs. dollar currency escalation was the actual demise of the "914S" nomenclature in the USA only (Note that both Japan kept "914S" & the UK kept 914 SC" thru to 76 MY), which I recently also added to my "914S".
It was NOT the much alleged concerns of PCA 911 owners, nor of Porsche concerns over competing with their top of the line 911S - think about those - who would EVER think a 80-95 HP 4-banger 914S was competition for a 911S with upwards of 180-210 HP - really, REALLY!?
- but ignore logic & facts to continue believing in those urban myths if you must. Quite simply - Porsche could no longer keep selling a fully loaded 73 "914S" at it's original Aug 72 - March 73 price of $5299 (WCPOE), so they increased it to $7299 Mrch - June 73, & introduced a more basic "914 Sport" with only Performance Group options as their new "price leader 2.0" at $5299" for March - June 73.
Thereafter for 74> MYs Porsche further reduced their pricing risk by decoupling ALL options & option groups from ALL 914s, & made everything for extra cost - & they increased the cost of the options/groups - while the 2.0's base price stayed the same as what the prior 73 MY fully loaded "914S" had been increased to of $7299 - but now without ANY options!
Both the 75 & 76 MYs saw increases to base prices & options - & were all now higher than what the pre-73 DM escalation 911 prices had been!
There were 2 exceptions to offering options for a somewhat of a deal price - but both were low production number - thereby limited their losses - the 74 MY 914 1000 LE/CanAms (EDIT:
EDIT: ... & I wasn't counting the similar Euro/RoW 100,000th 914 Special editions, but that's another number of them above & beyond the LEs here. I'm not going to look it up, but someone else can chime in with the number if they so choose.
In reality at he end of the 914's run - you had no choice in 76 MY 2.0 options it was however they were built & shipped, & you paid the price - most of the ones that I looked at before buying my used 3 year old 73 "914S" were all priced at $8500+/- & over, with the anemic CA-Smog choked 78-80 HP!!
If you were of car buying or dreaming age then - you know what I mean about how ALL of the cool imported sports cars went way out of reach for most of us!
If you look at the production/sales numbers for the 914s at the info section here, you can see how this currency driven price escalation bled off 914 sales to just a few - after peaking in 73 MY - as it also did with 911 & 912E & 930 sales. Monthly sales rates on all Porsche models would show that drop off starting in March 73, as it did with ALL import car makers' vehicles.
4. Another Failed VW/Audi-Porsche JV Enters the Fray:
As they say on the TV commercials - "Butt Wait!" -
VW, Audi & Porsche were all concerned over being able to meet with aircooled engines, the soon to be & ever increasing smog control limits of California (60-70% of the USA Sales, which still ran 60-75% of worldwide Porsche sales = 36 - 52.5% of worldwide sales to California) - plus the other 49 states under EPA were soon to adopt the California emissions standards too nationwide.
Ergo, Porsche began designing their watercooled V8 for the 928, & VW/Audi started designing 4 & 5 cyl. inline watercooled engines for their Golf, Fox, 3000, etc. models - & they commissioned Porsche to design a VW/Audi sports coupe using their new I-4 watercooled motor.
VW/Audi went so far as to schedule complete retooling of the Karmann plant to build theri new sports car/coupe - but then backed out & cancelled the product. You will recall that ALL 76 MY 914-2.0s were built prior to Dec. 75, so that the Karmann plant could be retooled for that new car, & Porsche back-filled by installing the 2.0 Air-boxer in 911 shells - creating the short lived 912E produced at their Stuttgart plant's 911 line for +/- Jan - July 76 for 76 MY only.
Porsche had also taken over the cancelled VW/Audi sports car/coupe, & began producing it as their own 924 in 77 MY on.
So the 914 had no production line after Dec. 75, & there was no possible way to continue it's production, because all of the tooling had been worn out & never replaced - even if they wanted to move it to another plant from Karmann.
There are other factors which came into play for the 914's demise, but some urban myth about Porsche not liking the 914 to save the 911 wasn't one of them.
In fact, Porsche itself thought that the 911 line would be replaced by an all watercooled line of 924, 928 & other spin-off models by the early 1990's, & the last aircooled 911s were produced in 1993 MY due to the problems with aircooled engines not meeting the by then 50 State smog regulations.
However, Porsche did react to customer lash-back at their original watercooled planned replacements, & then went on in the mid to late 1980s to start design of the waterboxer six later used in the 996 & 986 lines of 911s & Boxsters/Caymans - with the 996 & 986 lines initially sharing full body/mechanical front end designs from the windscreen forward in order to save on costs - which were introduced as their diminishing sales 928s were phased out in 95-96 MYs.
As with most business issues - & car manufacturing is & always was a business - it was never some "911 jealousy" - but a complex set of world economic & automotive regulatory issues.
Happy Holidays!
Tom
///////
QUOTE(Matty900 @ Dec 14 2018, 07:18 PM)
I have heard several stories about Porsche not wanting to do anything to mess with the 911 program. Like the one about the 914S.
It's my understanding that in 1973 when they came out with the 2 ltr motor, they launched in the US and a 914 S. It had its own brochure, all of the options and was shut down by Porsche because they did not want to compete with the 911S.
I am not trying to open this can of worms with anyone about is the 914 S real or not. What I want to know is, as protective as Porsche was about the 911 program, How did this affect the 914. Were the 914 De-tuned from what the original design specs were?
matty900
I am truly happy you posted this thread, it has been very interesting to see the information pour out. Cool stuff and we can all learn as a result.
QUOTE(Matty900 @ Dec 18 2018, 09:12 PM)
I am interested in the design and production aspect of the 914. What I am trying to learn about was if the 914's may have been De-tuned from what the original design specs were?" So that would have come from the beginning of the program.
Tricky question and I have no clue what the "original design specs" were, but I'm inclined to think no, it wasn't de-tuned from the original design. Given that the original concept for the car was a bridge between an upper end VW sports car and and entry level Porsche, if anything, they overshot in the chassis design by making essentially a streetable racing chassis that cornered like nothing else, and was arguably superior to the 911. The de-tuning was from choice of drive train and other bolt on components which I believe were driven more by what was needed to adhere to the original concept rather than deviating from it.
Of course, the 914 could easily be developed as a 911 slayer but I think Porsche was smart to keep that in check. It doesn't make sense for a company to compete against themselves and even worse if the competition is knocking down something as iconic as the 911. How many stories have we heard about people back in the day who wanted a 911 but couldn't afford one so left the dealer with a new 914 instead? It seems to have worked for them.
QUOTE(Matty900 @ Dec 18 2018, 09:12 PM)
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Dec 15 2018, 10:35 AM)
"Matty - as others have pointed out, it was a more complex demise, than just not competing with the 911s."
"It was NOT the much alleged concerns of PCA 911 owners, nor of Porsche concerns over competing with their top of the line 911S - think about those - who would EVER think a 80-95 HP 4-banger 914S was competition for a 911S with upwards of 180-210 HP - really, REALLY!?
- but ignore logic & facts to continue believing in those urban myths if you must." Happy Holidays!
Tom
///////
Wow! Thank you Tom and everyone else. I am always impressed by what I learn from you guys
I was actually not aware of the 911 owners urban myth part. I am not denying that the 73 911S were spectacular cars with obviously a lot more horsepower (Although it was cool to watch a 914-6 beat all of the 911's at Rennsport this year)
I am interested in the design and production aspect of the 914. What I am trying to learn about was if the 914's may have been De-tuned from what the original design specs were?" So that would have come from the beginning of the program. I figure if anyone would know it would be this group.
I had an interesting conversation with Trevor Frank at Rennsport as he gave me a tour of his Ginther 914-4. He was telling me about the Ginther program and the goal to show what the cars were actually capable of doing if they would have been allowed to form the start.
Obviously, economics play a part in this and it may not just be about not wanting to interfere with sales of with the 911 program. It may have also been about keeping the car as affordable as possible.
Your last sentence is a huge part of it, as they began changing all sorts of things to lower production costs on the 914s from late 73 MY on. 74 & then 75 went with a simpler turn signal one-indicator-light (no more L & R arrows) - which was a VW cost saving, plastic dash bezels & gauge lenses, cheaper heat seamed seats & upholstery (over sewn) using less expensive thinner fabrics - & BTW even those sharp looking plaid cloth inserts were a cost savings over vinyl leatherette/brickweave, plastic door sill thresholds/carpet-strips, etc., etc.
As for if the original 914/4 was detuned - I'd say no because, aside from the typical product placement types of engineering the various Porsche models to fit into a particular slot in their line-up, remember that Porsche was looking to replace the now very dated 912 with the 356 era 4-banger, as well as VW's Karmann Ghia T1 1500-1600 (& KG 34 Caravelle). So at 80 HP it was actually a step up due to better torque
So their power target for the base 914/4 was to be a modest update of those 2 intended-to-be-outgoing models, & move the new 914 into their newer T-IV motor with fuel injection (EFI) at about the same power level.
As to the upside potential - well the 1.8 & 2.0 were a start, but aborted by the smog control concerns of aircooled - & Ginther, Rich Bontempi, FAT Performance, Raby & all sorts of others racing them in SCCA, PCA, etc. have shown that there was a lot more potential for the 914, had it stayed in production as long as the aircooled 911s (993 to early 1990s).
Again - the demise was more related to DM escalation raising prices vs. domestically made options (Vette, Camaro/Firebird, Mustang, etc.) making them more budget friendly options.
Note that both the 914 & 924 & 911/930 suffered the sales fall-off & financial troubles for Porsche - as it also did for Fiat (124, X1/9), Alpha (2000 - left the USA market), MG/Triumph/Austin/BMC-Leyland (MGB/C, Sprigite, big Healys, etc. - also left the US market for sports cars).
Also keep in mind that for production/sales model groupings - both the outgoing 76 MY 914-2.0 & temporary fill-in 912E should probably be considered in the same bucket from the production/sales point of view - in which case they had a combined sales figure closer to or more than the 75 MY 914 1.8 & 2.0. Think of the 76 914-2.0 as filling the prior MY's 1.8, & the 912E as the formerly step-up position of the 914-2.0 during 73-75 MYs.
Just more food for thought from a business model perspective.
Tom
///////
QUOTE(bbrock @ Dec 19 2018, 11:21 AM)
QUOTE(Matty900 @ Dec 18 2018, 09:12 PM)
I am interested in the design and production aspect of the 914. What I am trying to learn about was if the 914's may have been De-tuned from what the original design specs were?" So that would have come from the beginning of the program.
Tricky question and I have no clue what the "original design specs" were, but I'm inclined to think no, it wasn't de-tuned from the original design. Given that the original concept for the car was a bridge between an upper end VW sports car and and entry level Porsche, if anything, they overshot in the chassis design by making essentially a streetable racing chassis that cornered like nothing else, and was arguably superior to the 911. The de-tuning was from choice of drive train and other bolt on components which I believe were driven more by what was needed to adhere to the original concept rather than deviating from it.
Of course, the 914 could easily be developed as a 911 slayer but I think Porsche was smart to keep that in check. It doesn't make sense for a company to compete against themselves and even worse if the competition is knocking down something as iconic as the 911. How many stories have we heard about people back in the day who wanted a 911 but couldn't afford one so left the dealer with a new 914 instead? It seems to have worked for them.
I don't have time to check it now, but IIRC the 1.7L 914 T4 was a few more HP, than was the 1.7 as used in the 411 VW.
Maybe another eager beaver can check the VW specs for a `70 411.
Tom
///////
Yeah George, I included that water cooled & smog issue as well briefly near the end of my write-up - see the bold below, but good additional facts!
Tom
///////
I just skimmed this Tom, very good analysis. I may have overlooked it, but one reason that Porsche discontinued the 914 (and were planning on discontinuing the 911, was that it was much easier to control the emissions on a water cooled car that virtually ran at 180 degrees all of the time, and that the water cooled build was much cheaper than the air cooled. ALSO it was much cheaper, easier, and more conventional to build a front engined rear wheel wheeled drive car, and would be easier to get through the crash standards. All in all, would save Porsche a bunch of money making these front engined water cooled cars.
The 911 replacement was to be the 928, but it was not well received and sales were terrible. If it was not for continuing the 911 at all costs, Porsche would have tanked. The 924 DID replace the 914 however, truly a very sorry car, but it tided porsche over until they could improve it into the 944 and finally the 968
I have heard several stories about Porsche not wanting to do anything to mess with the 911 program. Like the one about the 914S.
It's my understanding that in 1973 when they came out with the 2 ltr motor, they launched in the US and a 914 S. It had its own brochure, all of the options and was shut down by Porsche because they did not want to compete with the 911S.
I am not trying to open this can of worms with anyone about is the 914 S real or not. What I want to know is, as protective as Porsche was about the 911 program, How did this affect the 914. Were the 914 De-tuned from what the original design specs were?
Matty - as others have pointed out, it was a more complex demise, than just not competing with the 911s.
As with the 2003> VW-Porsche JV vehicle collaboration Cayennes saving Porsche's financial butz - nearly in bankruptcy from 1996-2004 -
Likewise, our 914s' 118,000+/- in sales over 6 model years 70-76 (69 counting full 70 MY) saved Porsche's financial butz, because they could no longer sell large numbers of 911s, 912s were too expensive to build & sell at an entry level - read high sales volume - price due to their production costs & prices increases from their inception in `64. In fact the ongoing sales of 64-65 356's masked this economic reality with their parallel sales during those 2 MYs.
So why get rid of the butz-saving 914s? There was a combination of reasons:
1. Overpriced Body Shells from VW/Karmann Plant:
The VW reneging on the original "handshake deal" on the price to sell the 914 bodies to Porsche to produce the detuned 110 HP 914-6's put their sales pricing too close to the the nicer fitted out & higher 125 HP 911-T in 70-71 MYs - so most buyers never looked beyond that & shifting foibles, & would pay the extra +/- $500 for a 911-T - so it never really got rolling.
Also note that the 916 was never implemented because it's price was almost that of the comparably equipped 911E/911S of the time, & it would've certainly cut into some 911 sales with a comparable HP motor, while the 911 sales were also declining due to the currency escalation problem discussed below. The 916 project was discontinued after the first 11 prototypes, which were actually very well received in the market & automotive press, but the pricing of $14,000+/- was a question mark - given the oil crisis driven global recession of the mid-1970's - also made worse in the USA by the end of space race & Vietnam War driven production after 72-74>.
2. Continued High Body/Vehicle Pricing for 73-76 914s:
This higher than expected pricing continued for all 914-4s from 74> MYs - after Porsche took over the VW-Porsche JV - so it thereafter also increased the production cost basis of all 914s thereafter - as seen in the ever increasing prices - making the 914-2.0s also too close for comfort relative to better fitted-out & more powerful 911-Ts (& other base 911 models) - despite the by then recognized better handling 914s.
(Note that - IIRC - Porsche didn't begin factory racing with the 911s, until the 914-6 was waning.)
3. Currency Escalation Driving up Import Prices:
Added to the above, the W. German Deutche Mark (DM) was rapidly escalating against the US Dollar after then President Nixon took the dollar off the Gold standard, & it was allowed to float in the world monetary markets, in order to help keep USA products more competitive - but that likewise made other imports including cars more expensive after the dollar was no longer set by the US (Fed & Treasury Depts.).
This can clearly be seen in the rapid price escalation of the 73 Porsches of all types 914 & 911, & carrying on into 76 MY & beyond - further complicating Porsche's competitiveness in the USA, where 60% of their cars were then sold - which also affected their cars from 77> MYs, leading to their later financial viability crisis which the Cayenne solved.
I recently described in a reply to another similar post (maybe one of yours) as to how this price escalation to DM vs. dollar currency escalation was the actual demise of the "914S" nomenclature in the USA only (Note that both Japan kept "914S" & the UK kept 914 SC" thru to 76 MY), which I recently also added to my "914S".
It was NOT the much alleged concerns of PCA 911 owners, nor of Porsche concerns over competing with their top of the line 911S - think about those - who would EVER think a 80-95 HP 4-banger 914S was competition for a 911S with upwards of 180-210 HP - really, REALLY!? - but ignore logic & facts to continue believing in those urban myths if you must.
Quite simply - Porsche could no longer keep selling a fully loaded 73 "914S" at it's original Aug 72 - March 73 price of $5299 (WCPOE), so they increased it to $7299 Mrch - June 73, & introduced a more basic "914 Sport" with only Performance Group options as their new "price leader 2.0" at $5299" for March - June 73.
Thereafter for 74> MYs Porsche further reduced their pricing risk by decoupling ALL options & option groups from ALL 914s, & made everything for extra cost - & they increased the cost of the options/groups - while the 2.0's base price stayed the same as what the prior 73 MY fully loaded "914S" had been increased to of $7299 - but now without ANY options!
Both the 75 & 76 MYs saw increases to base prices & options - & were all now higher than what the pre-73 DM escalation 911 prices had been!
There were 2 exceptions to offering options for a somewhat of a deal price - but both were low production number - thereby limited their losses - the 74 MY 914 1000 LE/CanAms (EDIT:1000 500 each color scheme) which actually only "included" a few options, & the close-out 76 MY 914-2.0s - which was done to get rid of them ASAP before what was to come next - & even then they were adding to the base price for the supposedly included options.
EDIT: ... & I wasn't counting the similar Euro/RoW 100,000th 914 Special editions, but that's another number of them above & beyond the LEs here. I'm not going to look it up, but someone else can chime in with the number if they so choose.
In reality at he end of the 914's run - you had no choice in 76 MY 2.0 options it was however they were built & shipped, & you paid the price - most of the ones that I looked at before buying my used 3 year old 73 "914S" were all priced at $8500+/- & over, with the anemic CA-Smog choked 78-80 HP!!
If you were of car buying or dreaming age then - you know what I mean about how ALL of the cool imported sports cars went way out of reach for most of us!
If you look at the production/sales numbers for the 914s at the info section here, you can see how this currency driven price escalation bled off 914 sales to just a few - after peaking in 73 MY - as it also did with 911 & 912E & 930 sales. Monthly sales rates on all Porsche models would show that drop off starting in March 73, as it did with ALL import car makers' vehicles.
4. Another Failed VW/Audi-Porsche JV Enters the Fray:
As they say on the TV commercials - "Butt Wait!" -
VW, Audi & Porsche were all concerned over being able to meet with aircooled engines, the soon to be & ever increasing smog control limits of California (60-70% of the USA Sales, which still ran 60-75% of worldwide Porsche sales = 36 - 52.5% of worldwide sales to California) - plus the other 49 states under EPA were soon to adopt the California emissions standards too nationwide.
Ergo, Porsche began designing their watercooled V8 for the 928, & VW/Audi started designing 4 & 5 cyl. inline watercooled engines for their Golf, Fox, 3000, etc. models - & they commissioned Porsche to design a VW/Audi sports coupe using their new I-4 watercooled motor.
VW/Audi went so far as to schedule complete retooling of the Karmann plant to build theri new sports car/coupe - but then backed out & cancelled the product. You will recall that ALL 76 MY 914-2.0s were built prior to Dec. 75, so that the Karmann plant could be retooled for that new car, & Porsche back-filled by installing the 2.0 Air-boxer in 911 shells - creating the short lived 912E produced at their Stuttgart plant's 911 line for +/- Jan - July 76 for 76 MY only.
Porsche had also taken over the cancelled VW/Audi sports car/coupe, & began producing it as their own 924 in 77 MY on.
So the 914 had no production line after Dec. 75, & there was no possible way to continue it's production, because all of the tooling had been worn out & never replaced - even if they wanted to move it to another plant from Karmann.
There are other factors which came into play for the 914's demise, but some urban myth about Porsche not liking the 914 to save the 911 wasn't one of them.
In fact, Porsche itself thought that the 911 line would be replaced by an all watercooled line of 924, 928 & other spin-off models by the early 1990's, & the last aircooled 911s were produced in 1993 MY due to the problems with aircooled engines not meeting the by then 50 State smog regulations.
However, Porsche did react to customer lash-back at their original watercooled planned replacements, & then went on in the mid to late 1980s to start design of the waterboxer six later used in the 996 & 986 lines of 911s & Boxsters/Caymans - with the 996 & 986 lines initially sharing full body/mechanical front end designs from the windscreen forward in order to save on costs - which were introduced as their diminishing sales 928s were phased out in 95-96 MYs.
As with most business issues - & car manufacturing is & always was a business - it was never some "911 jealousy" - but a complex set of world economic & automotive regulatory issues.
Happy Holidays!
Tom
///////
Tom
///////
QUOTE(dr914@autoatlanta.com @ Dec 19 2018, 11:00 AM)
I just skimmed this Tom, very good analysis. I may have overlooked it, but one reason that Porsche discontinued the 914 (and were planning on discontinuing the 911, was that it was much easier to control the emissions on a water cooled car that virtually ran at 180 degrees all of the time, and that the water cooled build was much cheaper than the air cooled. ALSO it was much cheaper, easier, and more conventional to build a front engined rear wheel wheeled drive car, and would be easier to get through the crash standards. All in all, would save Porsche a bunch of money making these front engined water cooled cars.
The 911 replacement was to be the 928, but it was not well received and sales were terrible. If it was not for continuing the 911 at all costs, Porsche would have tanked. The 924 DID replace the 914 however, truly a very sorry car, but it tided porsche over until they could improve it into the 944 and finally the 968
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Dec 15 2018, 11:35 AM)
QUOTE(Matty900 @ Dec 14 2018, 08:18 PM)
I have heard several stories about Porsche not wanting to do anything to mess with the 911 program. Like the one about the 914S.
It's my understanding that in 1973 when they came out with the 2 ltr motor, they launched in the US and a 914 S. It had its own brochure, all of the options and was shut down by Porsche because they did not want to compete with the 911S.
I am not trying to open this can of worms with anyone about is the 914 S real or not. What I want to know is, as protective as Porsche was about the 911 program, How did this affect the 914. Were the 914 De-tuned from what the original design specs were?
Matty - as others have pointed out, it was a more complex demise, than just not competing with the 911s.
As with the 2003> VW-Porsche JV vehicle collaboration Cayennes saving Porsche's financial butz - nearly in bankruptcy from 1996-2004 -
Likewise, our 914s' 118,000+/- in sales over 6 model years 70-76 (69 counting full 70 MY) saved Porsche's financial butz, because they could no longer sell large numbers of 911s, 912s were too expensive to build & sell at an entry level - read high sales volume - price due to their production costs & prices increases from their inception in `64. In fact the ongoing sales of 64-65 356's masked this economic reality with their parallel sales during those 2 MYs.
So why get rid of the butz-saving 914s? There was a combination of reasons:
1. Overpriced Body Shells from VW/Karmann Plant:
The VW reneging on the original "handshake deal" on the price to sell the 914 bodies to Porsche to produce the detuned 110 HP 914-6's put their sales pricing too close to the the nicer fitted out & higher 125 HP 911-T in 70-71 MYs - so most buyers never looked beyond that & shifting foibles, & would pay the extra +/- $500 for a 911-T - so it never really got rolling.
Also note that the 916 was never implemented because it's price was almost that of the comparably equipped 911E/911S of the time, & it would've certainly cut into some 911 sales with a comparable HP motor, while the 911 sales were also declining due to the currency escalation problem discussed below. The 916 project was discontinued after the first 11 prototypes, which were actually very well received in the market & automotive press, but the pricing of $14,000+/- was a question mark - given the oil crisis driven global recession of the mid-1970's - also made worse in the USA by the end of space race & Vietnam War driven production after 72-74>.
2. Continued High Body/Vehicle Pricing for 73-76 914s:
This higher than expected pricing continued for all 914-4s from 74> MYs - after Porsche took over the VW-Porsche JV - so it thereafter also increased the production cost basis of all 914s thereafter - as seen in the ever increasing prices - making the 914-2.0s also too close for comfort relative to better fitted-out & more powerful 911-Ts (& other base 911 models) - despite the by then recognized better handling 914s.
(Note that - IIRC - Porsche didn't begin factory racing with the 911s, until the 914-6 was waning.)
3. Currency Escalation Driving up Import Prices:
Added to the above, the W. German Deutche Mark (DM) was rapidly escalating against the US Dollar after then President Nixon took the dollar off the Gold standard, & it was allowed to float in the world monetary markets, in order to help keep USA products more competitive - but that likewise made other imports including cars more expensive after the dollar was no longer set by the US (Fed & Treasury Depts.).
This can clearly be seen in the rapid price escalation of the 73 Porsches of all types 914 & 911, & carrying on into 76 MY & beyond - further complicating Porsche's competitiveness in the USA, where 60% of their cars were then sold - which also affected their cars from 77> MYs, leading to their later financial viability crisis which the Cayenne solved.
I recently described in a reply to another similar post (maybe one of yours) as to how this price escalation to DM vs. dollar currency escalation was the actual demise of the "914S" nomenclature in the USA only (Note that both Japan kept "914S" & the UK kept 914 SC" thru to 76 MY), which I recently also added to my "914S".
It was NOT the much alleged concerns of PCA 911 owners, nor of Porsche concerns over competing with their top of the line 911S - think about those - who would EVER think a 80-95 HP 4-banger 914S was competition for a 911S with upwards of 180-210 HP - really, REALLY!?
- but ignore logic & facts to continue believing in those urban myths if you must. Quite simply - Porsche could no longer keep selling a fully loaded 73 "914S" at it's original Aug 72 - March 73 price of $5299 (WCPOE), so they increased it to $7299 Mrch - June 73, & introduced a more basic "914 Sport" with only Performance Group options as their new "price leader 2.0" at $5299" for March - June 73.
Thereafter for 74> MYs Porsche further reduced their pricing risk by decoupling ALL options & option groups from ALL 914s, & made everything for extra cost - & they increased the cost of the options/groups - while the 2.0's base price stayed the same as what the prior 73 MY fully loaded "914S" had been increased to of $7299 - but now without ANY options!
Both the 75 & 76 MYs saw increases to base prices & options - & were all now higher than what the pre-73 DM escalation 911 prices had been!
There were 2 exceptions to offering options for a somewhat of a deal price - but both were low production number - thereby limited their losses - the 74 MY 914 1000 LE/CanAms (EDIT:
EDIT: ... & I wasn't counting the similar Euro/RoW 100,000th 914 Special editions, but that's another number of them above & beyond the LEs here. I'm not going to look it up, but someone else can chime in with the number if they so choose.
In reality at he end of the 914's run - you had no choice in 76 MY 2.0 options it was however they were built & shipped, & you paid the price - most of the ones that I looked at before buying my used 3 year old 73 "914S" were all priced at $8500+/- & over, with the anemic CA-Smog choked 78-80 HP!!
If you were of car buying or dreaming age then - you know what I mean about how ALL of the cool imported sports cars went way out of reach for most of us!
If you look at the production/sales numbers for the 914s at the info section here, you can see how this currency driven price escalation bled off 914 sales to just a few - after peaking in 73 MY - as it also did with 911 & 912E & 930 sales. Monthly sales rates on all Porsche models would show that drop off starting in March 73, as it did with ALL import car makers' vehicles.
4. Another Failed VW/Audi-Porsche JV Enters the Fray:
As they say on the TV commercials - "Butt Wait!" -
VW, Audi & Porsche were all concerned over being able to meet with aircooled engines, the soon to be & ever increasing smog control limits of California (60-70% of the USA Sales, which still ran 60-75% of worldwide Porsche sales = 36 - 52.5% of worldwide sales to California) - plus the other 49 states under EPA were soon to adopt the California emissions standards too nationwide.
Ergo, Porsche began designing their watercooled V8 for the 928, & VW/Audi started designing 4 & 5 cyl. inline watercooled engines for their Golf, Fox, 3000, etc. models - & they commissioned Porsche to design a VW/Audi sports coupe using their new I-4 watercooled motor.
VW/Audi went so far as to schedule complete retooling of the Karmann plant to build theri new sports car/coupe - but then backed out & cancelled the product. You will recall that ALL 76 MY 914-2.0s were built prior to Dec. 75, so that the Karmann plant could be retooled for that new car, & Porsche back-filled by installing the 2.0 Air-boxer in 911 shells - creating the short lived 912E produced at their Stuttgart plant's 911 line for +/- Jan - July 76 for 76 MY only.
Porsche had also taken over the cancelled VW/Audi sports car/coupe, & began producing it as their own 924 in 77 MY on.
So the 914 had no production line after Dec. 75, & there was no possible way to continue it's production, because all of the tooling had been worn out & never replaced - even if they wanted to move it to another plant from Karmann.
There are other factors which came into play for the 914's demise, but some urban myth about Porsche not liking the 914 to save the 911 wasn't one of them.
In fact, Porsche itself thought that the 911 line would be replaced by an all watercooled line of 924, 928 & other spin-off models by the early 1990's, & the last aircooled 911s were produced in 1993 MY due to the problems with aircooled engines not meeting the by then 50 State smog regulations.
However, Porsche did react to customer lash-back at their original watercooled planned replacements, & then went on in the mid to late 1980s to start design of the waterboxer six later used in the 996 & 986 lines of 911s & Boxsters/Caymans - with the 996 & 986 lines initially sharing full body/mechanical front end designs from the windscreen forward in order to save on costs - which were introduced as their diminishing sales 928s were phased out in 95-96 MYs.
As with most business issues - & car manufacturing is & always was a business - it was never some "911 jealousy" - but a complex set of world economic & automotive regulatory issues.
Happy Holidays!
Tom
///////
QUOTE(sithot @ Dec 19 2018, 10:52 AM)
FWIW: Tesla loses money on every car they make.
Yeah, our son contributed to their losses last year Sept. 2017, then it got pummeled by that big hailstorm in Colorado Springs this past Aug. 2018 damaging all glass & body panels - so I don't know if that added to Tesla's losses.
But Elon just opened his LA tunnel, so he's used to throwing money at things!
Tom
///////
QUOTE(Lucky9146 @ Dec 19 2018, 10:14 AM)
QUOTE(Matty900 @ Dec 14 2018, 07:18 PM)
I have heard several stories about Porsche not wanting to do anything to mess with the 911 program. Like the one about the 914S.
It's my understanding that in 1973 when they came out with the 2 ltr motor, they launched in the US and a 914 S. It had its own brochure, all of the options and was shut down by Porsche because they did not want to compete with the 911S.
I am not trying to open this can of worms with anyone about is the 914 S real or not. What I want to know is, as protective as Porsche was about the 911 program, How did this affect the 914. Were the 914 De-tuned from what the original design specs were?
matty900
I am truly happy you posted this thread, it has been very interesting to see the information pour out. Cool stuff and we can all learn as a result.
I am trying to learn more about the design aspect so I can see what is the best way a 914 can be set up. If it was indeed detuned, what can you do to get the most out of the car? My car is a 1.7 and I am very happy with where it is now but there is always more that can be done right? I am trying to keep it in line with my experiment of what is the 1.7 really capable of without doing a larger motor. I am just trying to get as much joy out of the car as I can. Learning and tinkering with it are just part of that process. Happy to share the 914 sickness with all of you guys.
Tom_T Link: The Legend of the "914 S" & "914 SC", Myth or Fact?
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=107851
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=107851
QUOTE(Matty900 @ Dec 20 2018, 02:18 AM)
QUOTE(Lucky9146 @ Dec 19 2018, 10:14 AM)
QUOTE(Matty900 @ Dec 14 2018, 07:18 PM)
I have heard several stories about Porsche not wanting to do anything to mess with the 911 program. Like the one about the 914S.
It's my understanding that in 1973 when they came out with the 2 ltr motor, they launched in the US and a 914 S. It had its own brochure, all of the options and was shut down by Porsche because they did not want to compete with the 911S.
I am not trying to open this can of worms with anyone about is the 914 S real or not. What I want to know is, as protective as Porsche was about the 911 program, How did this affect the 914. Were the 914 De-tuned from what the original design specs were?
matty900
I am truly happy you posted this thread, it has been very interesting to see the information pour out. Cool stuff and we can all learn as a result.
I am trying to learn more about the design aspect so I can see what is the best way a 914 can be set up. If it was indeed detuned, what can you do to get the most out of the car? My car is a 1.7 and I am very happy with where it is now but there is always more that can be done right? I am trying to keep it in line with my experiment of what is the 1.7 really capable of without doing a larger motor. I am just trying to get as much joy out of the car as I can. Learning and tinkering with it are just part of that process. Happy to share the 914 sickness with all of you guys.
Six conversion.
one of us one of us one of us....
QUOTE(Matty900 @ Dec 20 2018, 12:18 AM)
I am trying to learn more about the design aspect so I can see what is the best way a 914 can be set up. If it was indeed detuned, what can you do to get the most out of the car? My car is a 1.7 and I am very happy with where it is now but there is always more that can be done right? I am trying to keep it in line with my experiment of what is the 1.7 really capable of without doing a larger motor. I am just trying to get as much joy out of the car as I can. Learning and tinkering with it are just part of that process. Happy to share the 914 sickness with all of you guys.
Can't remember if you already have sway bars, if not, they make a big difference in fun factor. I loved the two 1.7s I owned. Fun cars and great fuel economy.
QUOTE(Matty900 @ Dec 20 2018, 12:18 AM)
I am trying to learn more about the design aspect so I can see what is the best way a 914 can be set up. If it was indeed detuned, what can you do to get the most out of the car? My car is a 1.7 and I am very happy with where it is now but there is always more that can be done right? I am trying to keep it in line with my experiment of what is the 1.7 really capable of without doing a larger motor. I am just trying to get as much joy out of the car as I can. Learning and tinkering with it are just part of that process. Happy to share the 914 sickness with all of you guys.
Matty,
An easy HP/TQ upgrade for the 1.7s & 1.8s is to put on a 2.0 HE Exhaust (recco a used SSI so it won't rust in PNW) with the 2L Banana Muffler & proper hanger.
They bolt right on to a stock 1.7, parts/set-ups can be found for a reasonable price here etc., & you'll gain maybe +/-5% HP just by letting the engine breathe better with the larger 2.0 sized diameter tubes. So you might get around 85 HP out of it without touching the engine for a big build or swap.
But if your 1.7 is at all nice, then box up & store your original 1.7 exhaust/muffler/etc. set-up, in case you want to sell the 914/4 in the future to a collector or CW type who cares about those details.
If you ever need to rebuild the motor, then would be the time to consider either using the higher CR Euro/RoW P&Cs or to bore/stroke it to a 1919cc or whatever the mix is - cuz you'll be paying for all of those parts to do a stock rebuild anyway - so why not upbuild it then for a marginally smaller price (labor is about the same either way).
My buddy Jerry has a reason to keep his OO `71 /4 with +/-61k miles as stock as possible (& it has some dealer installed "options" from new already) - but not everybody is in his boat to maximize value of a collector car that he's babied for 47+ years. Heck - he rolls it in & out of his garage to hand wash it!
Click to view attachment
.... & that is the original Bahia Red Paint!
Tom
///////
[/quote]
I am trying to learn more about the design aspect so I can see what is the best way a 914 can be set up. If it was indeed detuned, what can you do to get the most out of the car? My car is a 1.7 and I am very happy with where it is now but there is always more that can be done right? I am trying to keep it in line with my experiment of what is the 1.7 really capable of without doing a larger motor. I am just trying to get as much joy out of the car as I can. Learning and tinkering with it are just part of that process. Happy to share the 914 sickness with all of you guys.
[/quote]
Look up a guy "raygreenwood" on The Samba, he seems to know just about every trick in the unwritten book to get the most out of the 1.7.
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