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> Going to Megasquirt, More questions
bbrock
post Sep 11 2021, 10:46 AM
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After about 1,700 miles of driving my freshly restored car with rebuilt engine, I’ve decided I’ve had my fun with Weber carbs and distributor-based ignition and am ready to step up to modern EFI and coil on plug ignition. Even with the jetting that came out of the box leaving the carbs running rich, the performance has been fantastic. What is not fantastic is the garage stinking of gasoline, no compensation for altitude, and being generally too fiddly to set up for my taste. My trials with the ignition are documented in another thread. Yes, I know a 1-2-3 would solve those problems but for the money, I’d rather invest in modern COP ignition as part of an EFI upgrade.

My goal is a smooth, efficient, and reliable street machine that I can drive from sea level to 11,000 ft. without starving or choking on fuel. Efficiency is at least as important as performance. As long as I can get at least the stockish 100 hp, I’ll be happy and beyond that, I’d like to wring as many mpg out as possible.

The engine is a mostly stock euro-spec 2L engine. The only mod is a fairly mild Elgin 6048 camshaft with 256 duration for the carbs. A source of pride of this build is this custom 911/914-6 inspired air cleaner I made which I think looks cool and really silences the carbs.

Attached Image Attached Image

Now for the questions:

• Single throttle body or ITB? I think I’ve made a decision but still interested in thoughts. I was thinking about welding injector bungs onto the carb manifolds and using my carbs as throttle bodies. The main appeal is that I would keep my cool air cleaner to make the other kids jealous. However, it seems the stock throttle body would greatly simplify the conversion. Also, even though the custom intake is designed to allow access for servicing and easy air filter replacement, it does crowd an already crowded engine bay and makes working in there just that much more of a challenge. My stock TB needs some TLC and might have to be sent for professional refurbishing. I think I could sell my carb setup to cover that cost but not sure. The upshot is that I’ve all but decided to go back to the stock TB, but curious what others think.

• N Alpha, Speed Density, or MAF? I’ve been reading up on this and think I understand pros and cons, but still a little confused about sensors needed. With my efficiency goal, I think MAF is the way to go. It looks to me that cutting off the tube connecting the stock air cleaner to the TB and replacing it with a MAF could be a really slick way to add MAF in stealth fashion. Has anyone done this? If not, how does one find the right MAF to use? Other than dimensions, what else needs to be considered?

Another question is about MAP + MAF vs MAF only. I’m a little confused about advantages or when a MAP sensor is needed if you have a MAF.

• Barometric correction – this is an important feature for my location, but the hardware needed to implement it is a little confusing. It seems like if you are running a MAP, then barometric correction is obtained by adding a second pressure sensor (another MAP?) to read reference atmospheric pressure to make corrections to the fuel mixture. How does it work with MAF? Do you only need one pressure sensor to read atmosphere? Or do you still need to reference it against manifold pressure? I assume a lot of this is done in the software but I haven’t looked to far into the tuning part yet. I’m more trying to figure out a shopping list for parts at this point.

• Anyone running a CAM sync and sequential spark and injection? Again with the efficiency goal, this is appealing. Looks like Mario is working on a new version which isn’t available yet, are there alternatives available? It seems people say you still need a crank position sensor even with a cam sensor in the mix. It isn’t entirely clear why though. Lastly, and this is mostly just curiosity, but is it correct to think that the lifespan (in miles) of spark plugs are cut in half with wasted spark?

I have many more questions but this is already too long so will save them for later.
TIA
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Frank S
post Oct 11 2021, 03:49 PM
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Fuel Injector Size:
https://thedubshop.com/pages.php?pageid=44
I'm running 21lb/hr and they are fine for a 120 HP Engine.
Don't go to large as this will be generate problems at idle and in overun conditions with to low pulswidth (out of the linear range of the injectors).
MS3 can deal much better with small puls width as the Dead Time Voltage Corretcion is not linear and MS3 is addressing that problem (which alone is a clear advantage if you compare with MS2 or Mircrosquirt).

Again Crank and/or Cam sensors:
A Crank sensor alone can only be good for Batch injection and Wasted Spark ignition.
Why? Because a engine cycle is 720° Crank rotation, so the ECU does not know if the engine is at #1 or #3 TDC. If you add a single tooth Cam Sensor in addition the ECU will be enabled to define #1 TDC, so you could run sequential fuel and spark.

If you run a Toothed Wheel Cam/Distibutor Sensor, this sensor allone will enable the ECU to define #1 TDC. This is because 720° Crank rotation = 360° Cam/Distributor rotation.

Sequential Modification:
You don't need to modify the MS2V3 board for sequential Fuel and Spark if you use the MS3. The MS3 daughtercard has all the outputs available, you just need to connect them to the JPB Board you are planning to use.
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bbrock
post Oct 11 2021, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE(Frank S @ Oct 11 2021, 03:49 PM) *

Fuel Injector Size:
https://thedubshop.com/pages.php?pageid=44
I'm running 21lb/hr and they are fine for a 120 HP Engine.
Don't go to large as this will be generate problems at idle and in overun conditions with to low pulswidth (out of the linear range of the injectors).
MS3 can deal much better with small puls width as the Dead Time Voltage Corretcion is not linear and MS3 is addressing that problem (which alone is a clear advantage if you compare with MS2 or Mircrosquirt).


I think I need to look a little more into MS3 or maybe the MAX EFI option @crash914 mentioned to see if they would let me run a smaller pulse width. MS3 would add about $200 to the project ($100 more than MS2 for the board kit plus $100 for the MS3X board to get the sequential output channels.

I've looked at Mario's and a couple other injector calculators and they all followed the same equation. Looks to me like they are just sizing the injector to be able to provide enough charge per cycle for the HP to be generated. Makes sense but it looks like squeezing efficiency our of sequential injection really depends on the timing of when the charge is sprayed to get as much as possible into the open valve for better atomization. Hence, the obsession over the larger injectors.

QUOTE
Again Crank and/or Cam sensors:
A Crank sensor alone can only be good for Batch injection and Wasted Spark ignition.
Why? Because a engine cycle is 720° Crank rotation, so the ECU does not know if the engine is at #1 or #3 TDC. If you add a single tooth Cam Sensor in addition the ECU will be enabled to define #1 TDC, so you could run sequential fuel and spark.

If you run a Toothed Wheel Cam/Distibutor Sensor, this sensor allone will enable the ECU to define #1 TDC. This is because 720° Crank rotation = 360° Cam/Distributor rotation.


Good info!

QUOTE
Sequential Modification:
You don't need to modify the MS2V3 board for sequential Fuel and Spark if you use the MS3. The MS3 daughtercard has all the outputs available, you just need to connect them to the JPB Board you are planning to use.

I looked into the daughter board and you still have to add the MS3X board to get the sequential output channels. Seems kind of weird MS3 doesn't have at least 4 injector channels built in, but I haven't found anything to indicate otherwise. The MS2 mod is really just removing a few components and adding some jumpers to repurpose unused features as output pins for injectors. If you are building the board from kit, the mod is more just skipping a few steps on assembly. Still, if MS3 can handle short pulse widths, that would be a good reason to use it.
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jd74914
post Oct 12 2021, 07:08 AM
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QUOTE(bbrock @ Oct 11 2021, 08:45 PM) *

QUOTE
Again Crank and/or Cam sensors:
A Crank sensor alone can only be good for Batch injection and Wasted Spark ignition.
Why? Because a engine cycle is 720° Crank rotation, so the ECU does not know if the engine is at #1 or #3 TDC. If you add a single tooth Cam Sensor in addition the ECU will be enabled to define #1 TDC, so you could run sequential fuel and spark.

If you run a Toothed Wheel Cam/Distibutor Sensor, this sensor allone will enable the ECU to define #1 TDC. This is because 720° Crank rotation = 360° Cam/Distributor rotation.


Good info!

I actually have a toothed cam wheel with hall effect trigger somewhere in the garage. Never used it, but let me see if I can dig it out to show how it was done.

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Posts in this topic
bbrock   Going to Megasquirt   Sep 11 2021, 10:46 AM
BeatNavy   Brent, you'll enjoy the challenge and learning...   Sep 11 2021, 01:43 PM
Morph914   Brent, I will be watching this closely as I may sw...   Sep 11 2021, 02:13 PM
Chris914n6   I'd run Speeduino over MS as it's a newer ...   Sep 11 2021, 02:44 PM
JamesM   I'd run Speeduino over MS as it's a newer...   Sep 11 2021, 04:53 PM
Superhawk996   Just sayin' . . . . https://thedubshop.com/du...   Sep 11 2021, 03:10 PM
r_towle   Buy ITBs that look like carbs Buy manifolds with i...   Sep 11 2021, 03:22 PM
JamesM   Throttle Body? Given you already have the cool ai...   Sep 11 2021, 04:30 PM
930cabman   Throttle Body? Given you already have the cool a...   Sep 11 2021, 04:44 PM
JamesM   Looks awfully confusing. Is the Weber setup that ...   Sep 11 2021, 04:56 PM
Montreal914   Will follow this thread with great interest. :pop...   Sep 11 2021, 05:02 PM
GregAmy   I go to all the trouble to write this stuff up... ...   Sep 11 2021, 06:03 PM
bbrock   I go to all the trouble to write this stuff up......   Sep 11 2021, 06:41 PM
JamesM   Mario at the dubshop makes some awesome parts and ...   Sep 12 2021, 12:18 AM
GregAmy   And I have read ALL of it! In fact, I blame y...   Sep 12 2021, 09:57 AM
bkrantz   Brent, welcome to the club. You may make progress...   Sep 11 2021, 07:21 PM
bbrock   Brent, welcome to the club. You may make progres...   Sep 11 2021, 08:15 PM
Montreal914   In case you haven't seen/read my partial adven...   Sep 11 2021, 08:59 PM
moto914   Hi. Running Microsquirt with ITBs here. The kno...   Sep 12 2021, 08:47 AM
bbrock   @[url=http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showu...   Sep 12 2021, 10:49 AM
JamesM   [b]@[url=http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s...   Sep 13 2021, 04:46 PM
bbrock   I still think you are adding needless complexity ...   Sep 13 2021, 07:51 PM
JamesM   Sadly, the more complicated it looks, the more I...   Sep 13 2021, 11:07 PM
Superhawk996   Sadly, the more complicated it looks, the more I...   Sep 14 2021, 05:38 AM
bbrock   @[url=http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?show...   Sep 15 2021, 08:08 AM
Superhawk996   I tried, but can't let this slide. . . . ...   Sep 15 2021, 08:41 AM
Montreal914   For ITBs, you have probably read that some people ...   Sep 12 2021, 12:25 PM
bbrock   Good to know about the MAP sensors. Looks like mo...   Sep 13 2021, 08:26 AM
GregAmy   Good to know about the MAP sensors. Looks like m...   Sep 13 2021, 10:28 AM
falcor75   I went the ITB route for my 2.3 but my car isnt bu...   Sep 13 2021, 11:14 PM
GregAmy   What I'm not happy about is the low idle at st...   Sep 14 2021, 06:00 AM
jd74914   What I'm not happy about is the low idle at s...   Sep 14 2021, 07:10 AM
ClayPerrine   If you don't have manifold vacuum at idle, but...   Sep 14 2021, 06:54 AM
VaccaRabite   James is the man, and I'd take his thoughts as...   Sep 14 2021, 08:13 AM
bbrock   @[url=http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showu...   Sep 14 2021, 12:05 PM
JamesM   [b]@[url=http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s...   Sep 14 2021, 01:08 PM
Montreal914   [b]@[url=http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s...   Sep 14 2021, 09:09 PM
bbrock   WOW! Really impressive! :worship: ...T...   Sep 14 2021, 10:36 PM
ClayPerrine   But... yeah. I think I'm going ahead with se...   Sep 16 2021, 06:21 AM
Superhawk996   Check out the MS3 Pro Module. Clay :yikes: ...   Sep 16 2021, 07:39 AM
bbrock   [quote name='ClayPerrine' post='2945887' date='Se...   Sep 16 2021, 08:24 AM
jd74914   But... yeah. I think I'm going ahead with se...   Sep 16 2021, 09:08 AM
Mike D.   Ahhh, yes! The beginning of another 7 year thr...   Sep 15 2021, 10:31 PM
jd74914   They're certainly right in terms of the poor s...   Sep 16 2021, 08:52 AM
Superhawk996   Modern injectors are objectively better. . . . I...   Sep 16 2021, 11:38 AM
bbrock   [quote name='jd74914' post='2945908' date='Sep 16...   Sep 16 2021, 05:00 PM
bbrock   An additional 800 miles of seat time in my car has...   Oct 9 2021, 08:44 AM
Superhawk996   - Do I need a crank sensor? To go full sequentia...   Oct 9 2021, 09:07 AM
JamesM   - Do I need a crank sensor? If you want to run...   Oct 9 2021, 04:53 PM
nditiz1   I have only seen the crankfire setup that McMark w...   Oct 9 2021, 01:15 PM
bbrock   I have only seen the crankfire setup that McMark ...   Oct 9 2021, 01:51 PM
Frank S   I have only seen the crankfire setup that McMark...   Oct 9 2021, 03:56 PM
ClayPerrine   Add a 36-1 wheel behind the fan replacing the spac...   Oct 9 2021, 04:56 PM
bbrock   This is all great info everyone! Looks like I...   Oct 9 2021, 06:17 PM
JamesM   You raise an interesting question about injector...   Oct 10 2021, 01:15 AM
bbrock   Okay, here's some fun with math. I calculated ...   Oct 10 2021, 12:20 PM
Superhawk996   I didn't check your math. I'm impressed th...   Oct 10 2021, 04:15 PM
bbrock   I didn't check your math. I'm impressed t...   Oct 10 2021, 04:18 PM
bbrock   Found a major error in my calculations. I accident...   Oct 10 2021, 07:03 PM
JamesM   Found a major error in my calculations. I acciden...   Oct 11 2021, 02:21 AM
bbrock   With larger injectors you lose some level of prec...   Oct 11 2021, 11:59 AM
jd74914   With larger injectors you lose some level of pre...   Oct 11 2021, 12:38 PM
bbrock   I'm not sure this is really a 'code' ...   Oct 11 2021, 02:08 PM
JamesM   Im just going to leave this here to give you more ...   Oct 12 2021, 12:33 PM
jd74914   Pulses of ~10 ms aren't too bad. But... I d...   Oct 11 2021, 03:00 PM
bbrock   Pulses of ~10 ms aren't too bad. But... I ...   Oct 11 2021, 04:04 PM
Frank S   Fuel Injector Size: https://thedubshop.com/pages....   Oct 11 2021, 03:49 PM
bbrock   Fuel Injector Size: https://thedubshop.com/pages...   Oct 11 2021, 07:45 PM
Frank S   I looked into the daughter board and you still ha...   Oct 11 2021, 10:55 PM
JamesM   It sounds like you really want to go with the 36lb...   Oct 12 2021, 01:17 AM
jd74914   I've looked at Mario's and a couple other...   Oct 12 2021, 07:18 AM
jd74914   Good info! I actually have a toothed cam w...   Oct 12 2021, 07:08 AM
crash914   Call Mario. Ask about the MAX EFI. will integrat...   Oct 11 2021, 04:06 PM
bbrock   Well no reason to stop this insanity now, so here...   Oct 11 2021, 07:24 PM
Superhawk996   You're becoming a real Geek. :lol: I've...   Oct 12 2021, 08:13 AM
bbrock   You guys are awesome! :trophy: I was reading...   Oct 12 2021, 08:38 AM
VaccaRabite   I worry that the larger picture of building an EFI...   Oct 12 2021, 10:22 AM
bbrock   I worry that the larger picture of building an EF...   Oct 12 2021, 11:10 AM
Superhawk996   Here's the view from my window today so I...   Oct 12 2021, 01:54 PM
JamesM   I worry that the larger picture of building an EF...   Oct 12 2021, 12:04 PM
bbrock   I worry that the larger picture of building an E...   Oct 12 2021, 12:35 PM
bbrock   Im just going to leave this here to give you more...   Oct 12 2021, 12:36 PM
KELTY360   Obviously, while the snow is on the ground you nee...   Oct 12 2021, 01:36 PM
bbrock   Obviously, while the snow is on the ground you ne...   Oct 12 2021, 01:57 PM
KELTY360   Obviously, while the snow is on the ground you n...   Oct 12 2021, 02:00 PM
bbrock   :chair: Don't be such a cynic. With all th...   Oct 12 2021, 02:31 PM
Superhawk996   BTW... :idea: see PM   Oct 12 2021, 02:37 PM
jd74914   That question was for the collective. I expected ...   Oct 13 2021, 07:24 AM
ClayPerrine   If you want distributorless ignition, there is an ...   Oct 13 2021, 06:28 AM
Frank S   Had a chance to check some of my data. With the 21...   Oct 14 2021, 09:58 AM
bbrock   Had a chance to check some of my data. With the 2...   Oct 14 2021, 05:49 PM
JamesM   Had a chance to check some of my data. With the ...   Oct 15 2021, 10:15 AM
bbrock   [quote name='bbrock' post='2952564' date='Oct 14 ...   Oct 15 2021, 06:21 PM
Frank S   Still not sure how much precision is being sacrif...   Oct 15 2021, 11:58 PM
JamesM   Still not sure how much precision is being sacrif...   Oct 16 2021, 10:56 PM
Frank S   And here how it looks like if you integrate the MS...   Oct 14 2021, 10:03 AM
bbrock   And here how it looks like if you integrate the M...   Oct 14 2021, 05:36 PM
Frank S   And here how it looks like if you integrate the ...   Oct 15 2021, 01:57 AM
bbrock   I've been wondering if there is an advantage i...   Oct 16 2021, 10:42 PM
JamesM   I've been wondering if there is an advantage ...   Oct 16 2021, 11:04 PM
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