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> Members with 74 1.8, information needed for history of cars
Van B
post Dec 1 2021, 06:30 PM
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No man, it’s what we’ve talked about in the other thread, disconnecting the vacuum retard but leaving it open to atmosphere and then plugging the port at the throttle body. That car will not cold start without vacuum retard. Period. Tried twice, same results.
Any 914 L-Jet EC-B without a vacuum retard line will require some very different parameters from what my car has. I’m certain of that.
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wonkipop
post Dec 1 2021, 06:38 PM
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everything is attached on mine.
vac retard from dist to vac retard port on TB.
same for advance.
always has been.

doesn't flood on starting.
goes a bit weak on cold start as you know (but thats 90% sure the AAV getting senile).
runs and idles just fine in winter conditions in aus, out in traffic etc.
never seems like its hot.
runs great out on highway at cruise at 80 mph (don't tell the cops).
gets outstanding fuel economy for its era, clocked it at 28mpg using USA measure.

but where it does cause me concern and used to 15 years back is in high summer here.
so much so i don't like to drive it in traffic where i will get caught up in a jam.
then you can feel the heat build up under the car.
i always used to put this down to the fact it was an AC engine out of a rear engine design slapped into the middle of the car so it trapped heat.
but now i am beginning to think because it is a emissions feature, that its running hotter at standstill idle than one without retard.
and maybe that is not so good in australia?
esp if you can't keep the car moving and expelling the hot air build up underneath.

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wonkipop
post Dec 1 2021, 06:45 PM
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QUOTE(Van B @ Dec 1 2021, 06:30 PM) *

No man, it’s what we’ve talked about in the other thread, disconnecting the vacuum retard but leaving it open to atmosphere and then plugging the port at the throttle body. That car will not cold start without vacuum retard. Period. Tried twice, same results.
Any 914 L-Jet EC-B without a vacuum retard line will require some very different parameters from what my car has. I’m certain of that.


connect it back up. keep it stock. it kind of proves the point that the EC-B with the retard ports in stock form needs that retard connected.

it doesn't get real hot in maryland so you are not going to have my problem with the hotter idle.
and i guess if i disconnected mine i would get into the same trouble as yours unless you could do something to adjust things.

we will have to wait from some members who don't have the retard hooked up.
they were around a few years back.
Pete000 had the set up for sure without the retard connected.

i'm only guessing when it comes to this mythical 49 state car.
no one has presented with one that links emission sticker, to tune sticker, to original set up. its just the throttle bodies are out there on cars. whether they are original or not can't be known for sure.
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Van B
post Dec 1 2021, 06:53 PM
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This post @wonkipop
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=2962219
A cold start just won’t happen with the vac retard function disabled. Your assumption about the warm start is accurate based on my experience, but a cold start ain’t happening.
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wonkipop
post Dec 1 2021, 07:05 PM
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yeah

i can see what you are saying.

if there is such a thing as a 1.8 without that retard its got to have a different ECU or an ECU that is tweaked in some way. i agree.

nothing in the parts manual or factory workshop manual to say there is a different part involved.

pete000's could be hot rodded in some way.

i'll go and dig out the thread from 10 years ago when a whole bunch of guys got going on this. they really got things up in the air. no one could agree with each other.
the whole scenario was there. and there were two guys with cars that had no retard facility.

---------

the big thing is we can answer mr. b's proposition to starbear and i.
he said there is an EC-a and and EC-b.
and for 74 that the EC-b was the cali car and the EC-a was the 49 states.
(based on a sound technical document about the 75 cars).

but its weirder. its the other way around for 74.

---------

and we would be able to answer all those guys who were having a bit of an argument 10 years ago. they all presumed the cars were one way (and saying their way was the right way and the others were wrong, cars were modded, etc).

we know for sure.
EC-A is retard only. (and it is california conforming and CARB certified).
EC-B is retard and advance (when it has a california conforming sticker on it).

and we know narthing definitive about the EC-B without california conforming sticker.

which is a lot more than i knew 2 weeks ago.
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wonkipop
post Dec 1 2021, 07:26 PM
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@Van B

i just took a close look at the photos @nihil44 posted up.

he has got something happening there that is very probably non stock.
he has got a rebuilt throttle body that a member here refurbishes.
part of the process is boring out (remachining) the TB.
slightly increases diameter.

i'll bet this alters the ported vacuum position in relation to the throttle valve.
i'm looking at his photo and the advance port is hooked up to the retard side of the distributor (or it looks that way).
is that because the advance port is now a manifold vacuum port after the machining?
its ended up on the manifold side of the valve?

he has his advance line off distributor going into a T connector and another line and i can't tell what that does.

i think he knows what he was doing too.
he can best explain it.


must be a consequence of the refurb on the TB?
his TB has the port closed off that is in the original manifold (retard) vacuum port.

if that is all so with his TB without a "retard" port than the ECU will still run it all.
because he is getting retard at idle.
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Van B
post Dec 1 2021, 07:44 PM
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Yeah it’s pretty cool what you sorted out with this thread. As parts become more scarce and people start developing work arounds, knowing the original comfy will be invaluable!
Hell, even with a 123 setup, it’s really important to know what the car needs for advance and retard in order to get along with the ECU!
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wonkipop
post Dec 1 2021, 07:48 PM
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heres another brain bender for you @Van B.

from CARB executive order.

74 412s and Kombis have same ECU and AFM as 914s.

but 412s and Kombis don't have retard on distributor.

....... they are cold starting without retard but without flooding?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

Attached Image


here is the thread from 2010 where they all get going on whats the right way to hook up a 1.8 - basically atl agree to disagree and don't get much further.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=113691

and here is the thread of rebuilding the throttle bodies.
need @whip618 to come on and tell us if he is doing anything to these throttle bodies with the retard port.

also @pete000 he is running a TB without the "normal" retard port to throw some light on his set up. does he have retard at idle off manifold vacuum

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=271012
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wonkipop
post Dec 1 2021, 08:40 PM
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ok - they are doing the cold start on the 412s and Kombis somehow with the different dizzy. you do the timing at idle with the hoses on for those.

you will have to explain to me how @Van B.
but must be how they can use the same AFM and ECU?

Attached Image

digging into all this sh#t. and it is sh#tty to dig into it. i came across something interesting i never knew about.
vw were the first manufacturer charged with an emission cheat in 1973.
sound familiar?
there was scant mention of exactly what it was.
but i found it in detail.
it was on the 73 type 3 fastbacks and squarebacks running D jet.
two temp sensitive switches were used to alter enrichment outside a certain ambient temp range. for cold starting VW claimed.
the EPA discovered the "cheat" when VW disclosed the temp switches were there for some 74 models they were seeking approval for. vw had to take the switch out of the system.

was this the 74 1.8? is that why it is late arriving in nov. 74?
there was no detail on which 74 model was affected so who knows.

vw were lucky, the EPA did not force a recall and instead levied a $120,000 USD fine.

soon after that the EPA hit chrysler and hit them hard with a recall.
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Van B
post Dec 1 2021, 08:41 PM
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I just spent the last 20min looking at threads on VW forums about 1.8 engines…. Holy shit, what a disaster. Guys, we’re a lucky bunch on this forum.

Here’s a little sample:
“I ment ignore TDC and 7.5 BTDC set to what advance value you want--max advanve, check type4rum for some sugestions. Mine seems to make the most power at 33.”

@wonkipop my answer would be that there is a difference in timing on the distributor. But, based on the 20min I will never get back, I don’t plan on ever looking into the VW world again lol!
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wonkipop
post Dec 1 2021, 08:46 PM
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QUOTE(Van B @ Dec 1 2021, 08:41 PM) *

I just spent the last 20min looking at threads on VW forums about 1.8 engines…. Holy shit, what a disaster. Guys, we’re a lucky bunch on this forum.

Here’s a little sample:
“I ment ignore TDC and 7.5 BTDC set to what advance value you want--max advanve, check type4rum for some sugestions. Mine seems to make the most power at 33.”

@wonkipop my answer would be that there is a difference in timing on the distributor. But, based on the 20min I will never get back, I don’t plan on ever looking into the VW world again lol!



you don't want to go into that world.

its hard enough finding primary material that is useful without..................(IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

just (IMG:style_emoticons/default/givemebeer.gif)


the worst thing for me is i am sitting down here in the a-hole of the world as ava gardner called it and there is no other L jet here in town. i know a guy with a 75 running carbs and a couple who own a 6. not much use except if you want to compare door handles.

this forum is real useful.
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wonkipop
post Dec 4 2021, 05:16 PM
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i worked out where the confusion came from between 2000 and 2010 on threads here and on pelican parts over vacuum hose set ups etc.

folks had cars that were already 30+ years old. throttle bodies had been replaced. some of the set ups being argued over were not in original configuration. some throttle bodies had come from other 1.8s in the VW family of cars.

this is the basic 74 914 EC-B throttle body.

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All 74 914s had manifold vacuum connected to distributor retard vacuum. all ran retard at idle for emissions. only EC-B ran vacuum advance off upstream port on TB.


here are examples of various VW throttle bodies for the 1.8 L-Jet engine.
would have been a lot of these floating around?
to make matters worse some seem to have the same part # stamped on as the 914 TB. i don't know how VW would have distinguished these parts from each other? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

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both EC-A examples posted here by members @nihil44 and @L-Jet914 have had their vac advance activated and an alternative source of manifold vacuum taken off the intake plenum. in other words converted to EC-B configuration.

got my head around the california emission kookery. CARB were making VW and porsche run the car retarded from ideal at all part load as well as throttle closed positions?

so much for the distributor as a fine tuning, reactive, load sensing adjustment device for engine efficiency?

california cars would have gone into slightly retarded timing of mech advance at cruise?
to do a version of trick as idle retard? forcing lower emission at the cost of fuel economy/efficiency of combustion.
@Van B will fill that in if i have it wrong.

anyone in cali with any sense would have found a way to reconnect advance?

---

in 75 they swapped it all around.
the EC-B throttle body went on to the californian cars.
the upstream port on the TB connected to the EGR and activated it at cruise and part throttle.
the EC-A throttle body went on to the 49 state cars.
these had only the manifold vacuum port connected to the retard vacuum on distributor (no EGR or cat and no vac advance.).
i found two published versions of both cars in very good original condition showing this.


------


you can find plenty of 1.8s for sale, the images that go with the dealer ads show that over the years owners have found some pretty novel ways to find manifold vacuum off hoses directly to the plenum to activate the vacuum retard if they had a TB without the port.
suspect there were lots of the vw TBs but correct 914 TB was a bit harder to find.


------

i will deposit the documents we have found in the originality section of the website as a resource for 1,8 owners.

as @Van B says, so folks know what the baseline factory set up was - then its easy to think your way into work-arounds if you have to.

jeff bowlsby asked if we could do a correct vacuum hose layout for the 1.8.
but we don't have to.
there is one that is on the pelican parts site that is 100% correct and was done early on.

what did not get worked out 10 years ago was that the disconnection of the advance hose on the distributor was due to CARB. Not a chronological difference, early and late as noted in discussions 10 years ago. both versions were manufactured at the same time. production of L-Jet very likely starts in November 1973.
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Van B
post Dec 5 2021, 12:19 AM
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As I was reading this I’m becoming more and more convinced that a programmable distributor is the way to go for an L-Jet.
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TRS63
post Dec 9 2021, 08:47 AM
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Hi,

Finally I can put my informations:

1. Vin Date - month and year (no need to post vin numbers if you don't want to). thats the date on the driver door sticker:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.thesamba.com-24690-1639061256.1.jpg)

2. Karmann plate #. or if you have already done the maths, the day and week of the year the car began production.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.thesamba.com-24690-1639061257.2.jpg)

3. Image of engine bay emission sticker (lhs above the air cleaner - white with red letters). sticker should say whether it is an EC-A or an EC-B engine and whether it is california + EPA or only EPA.
-->Sadly gone on my car (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) probably during the repaint (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) )

4. image of engine tune up sticker.
this is the small white sticker that is on LHS engine tin just below fan shroud.
most of them are gone by now, but some engines still have them.
Quite damaged on mine:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.thesamba.com-24690-1639061257.3.jpg)

5. image of the throttle body. image of the distributor.
we are looking at the vacuum hose set up between the distributor and the throttle body.
Pretty dirty, no time for an engine cleaning yet :-(
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.thesamba.com-24690-1639061258.4.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.thesamba.com-24690-1639061258.5.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.thesamba.com-24690-1639061258.6.jpg)

Cheers

Antoine
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wonkipop
post Dec 9 2021, 11:41 AM
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@TRS63

thanks Antoine

engine looks great mate. all original in there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
can make out from tune up sticker its both hoses hooked up car from the start.
same set up as EC-B stickered cars so 99% its one of those.
from late in production - handy to know. 6/74
shows vw were definitely making the two hose connected set up well after jan 01 74 and one versus two hose hookup isn't about a chronological production change/improvement.
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wonkipop
post Dec 9 2021, 09:21 PM
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Interesting one I found trawling old ads.

EC-A.
VIN date 06/74

resolution of engine photos don't allow to see hose hook up, or what tune up sticker shows.

bill of sale is sold new in cincinnati, ohio - makes it a CARB certified EC-A that is not sold new in california.

strange thing on engine seems to be for an aftermarket temp gauge made in the 70s.

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Dave_Darling
post Dec 9 2021, 09:30 PM
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QUOTE(Arno914 @ Nov 26 2021, 12:19 AM) *

You probably know this already: Only US 1.8l 914´s had the L-Jetronic. European 1.8l´s where equipped with Solex 40PDSIT carburators, the only 914´s without a fuel injection. So the 1.8´s are really special in some way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)


Not only that, but the 1.8s were the very first production cars ever to use L-Jetronic fuel injection! In many ways, they were the predecessor of basically all modern EFI systems!!

--DD
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wonkipop
post Dec 9 2021, 09:45 PM
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member with 7/74 car got back to me.
has sold the car - can't tell us about emission sticker.

found some pics he had posted on another thread.
shows throttle body.

has EC-B set up.
looks unmeddled with inclusive of 30 years desert dust.



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wonkipop
post Dec 10 2021, 12:22 AM
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QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Dec 9 2021, 09:30 PM) *

QUOTE(Arno914 @ Nov 26 2021, 12:19 AM) *

You probably know this already: Only US 1.8l 914´s had the L-Jetronic. European 1.8l´s where equipped with Solex 40PDSIT carburators, the only 914´s without a fuel injection. So the 1.8´s are really special in some way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)


Not only that, but the 1.8s were the very first production cars ever to use L-Jetronic fuel injection! In many ways, they were the predecessor of basically all modern EFI systems!!

--DD


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) .....although to be strictly correct, it shares the honour (if you call 76 hp an honour (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) with the VW 412 and the VW transporter. i knew about the 412, but before this exercise here, not the bus in 74. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)
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StarBear
post Dec 10 2021, 08:50 AM
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All this sort of explains the various tinkering with setups; they were still experimenting. No rationalization for that yellow one from Ohio….
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