Price of Jake's 2270cc, With all bells & whilses Options

[Bleyseng]

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Nov 28 2005, 04:22 PM)

On second thought if I give him back the 200 bucks and the core he would not have a leg to stand on.... or a gripe in the world with me.....Hmmmn

I would do this Jake just for PR and to let the air out of this BS thats going on.

I build $100k remodels to 2 million dollar homes these days and I make sure the plans and specs are very clear before the contract is signed. The owners also know that NOTHING is changed unless its in writing and signed. Still they want more for nothing....human nature I supposed. 'course there was that time the Dean of the UW tried to fire me on the spot cuz I wouldn't do additional work on his say so.

"you can't please all the people all the time"

Sounds like standard 914 motors are the way to go for now.

Oh btw, who wants a stock motor anyway! These days 95hp isn't enough nor that crappy cam.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dead horse.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif)

[Jake Raby]

I am working on the standardized list as we speak.. Some people won't like the lack of options, but its the only way to make this process "cut and dry" and remove the variables...

I dug into my files from 2000 and got my old proposals out and opened up their dyno graphs...

I'll have them posted before I go to bed tonight..

[ChrisFoley]

I think one of the things that often gets missed (I did the same thing) is that Jake's basic engine price includes a set of new carbs.
Most of us expect an engine to still need stuff attached to it once it is delivered but a RAT engine already has everything needed for it to run after installation except maybe the exhaust system. (that's my job (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) )
I think that the cost of the EFI upgrade is quite steep but I have never done any research on my own so I don't have a real basis for that opinion.
If I were planning a RAT 2270 engine for my street 914 I would go with the Nickies and skip the DTM. The DTM looks great in a rear engine car but I don't like the "upright" look in a 914 engine bay. I would probably skip the Performance Coatings but I would get the Ion Nitrided Crankshaft and Full Flow Oiling.
A couple of other observations: IMO the $200 deposit is not really an engine deposit but is for the privilege (that's right) of waiting in line. As such I can see a justification for it being non-refundable. On the other hand the engine core should be returned if no contract agreement is reached. The core engine is the property of the prospective customer.

In this case there was never a contract. There was no meeting of the minds. A signed proposal is the only way to establish the "meeting of the minds". Therefore the core engine should be returned. To keep it is nothing less than spiteful and would not stand up in a court of law IMHO unless there was signed paper to the contrary.
Just my $.02
Chris Foley

[Jake Raby]

The price of the EFI is a tad steeper than if someone purchased all the items to do the install themselves... BUT I TUNE the system for them as part of that cost.. Chris, you have set an engine up on my dyno and you kopw whats involved with that- now add about 200% more wires and etc and thats what one experiences with testing an EFI equipped engine, not to mention the additional time to MAP the engine's RPM fuel values (from 500 RPM to redline in 250 RPM increments) and each MP value across the entire range, which is much harder than RPM fuel and don't forget the cold start enrichment which requires the engine to cool down fully between eachn setting can be verified- this is why it takes at least double the time to correctly dyno tune an EFI equipped engine, hence the additional cost...

And yes, the engine included a ONE THOUSAND DOLLAR set of brand new Weber carbs- which you are lucky to even find these days..

[TJB/914]

Wow, came back tonight and this thing has leggs.

I am really learning a lot on this thread now that the flames are over.

Chris Foley's suggestion for an engine selection makes lots of sense. Keep it coming guys.

Tom
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif)

[SLITS]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif) ...:insertfanfaresmiley: We have a winner (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)

The "onion thread" only got 84 replies and 2600 views... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/shocked[1].gif)

back to the (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif)

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

I think standard kits/engines is a good idea. Easier for the builder, easy to give pricing on. You can ALWAYS give an estimated price and note right after it "call for exact quote" or "price" or however you want to word it. It's helpful for the customer's budgeting process to have at least an idea of what the costs are gonna be. Again, that contract thang comes up which would have the final costs.

Some options would be a good thing. Suppose they already have carbs and/or tin and just need the engine? If the lifters are a weak point then the ceramics could be an additional option. Nothing extensive but allow for some pre-priced customization. If I were to buy a motor (at this current time) it would be for a stock motor that I would dress myself, including the stock FI. I just need someone knowledgable to build the motor (internals, basically) so it's solid and reliable, I can dress it and I certainly don't want carbs (I hate carbs, even on my big T3 engine).

Food for thought.

Oh, and deposits should be refundable or go towards the cost of the engine. But yeah, 6 month wait is about as long as it should be.

Okay, now I'm done. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer3.gif)

[dmenche914]

Did the buyer just shoot himself in the foot again??? This is getting more silly, ecspecially after one hears jakes side. Buyer should stop complaining. Without a written contract there is not much you can do. To Jake maybe you should just give the squeeky wheel some oil, I like your thinking , the $200 may not be worth this kind of grief and publicity, but them again it is kind of like paying off blackmail at this point right? Cringe at the thought.

[Porsche Rescue]

Aren't we talking $200 and a 2.0 core engine?

[ppickerell]

QUOTE (LvSteveH @ Nov 28 2005, 03:52 PM)

Well, we can’t let you totally off the hook, because you singled out 914 owners as the source of all your misery. I’d challenge you to define what a “typical” 914 owner is and how they are any different from anyone else. You still take it way too personally when someone declines the final proposal 10 months after they got on the list. You were quick to mention how much things have changed in that time, with fuel and parts prices. Well, life changes too, and at a much faster rate than anything else. You have capitalized on the fact that your personality allows you to focus on something and do it well. You can control virtually every aspect of the process….with exception of the customer. A customer is nothing like a crankshaft or procedure that can be rationally ordered and processed. The way you see it, the customer is just waiting in line to be processed, and that is a model for failure. Keep doing what you do well, but you need to revise your process so that you can accommodate the inevitable challenges that will come your way. You mentioned that when someone declines a proposal it throws off your schedule for the whole year. The problem is that you obviously built a schedule with the anticipation of 100% acceptance of your proposals. You could build a business model that expects a 90% acceptance rate, but you would be better off just accepting the fact that some of your time is going to be spent on motors that never see the light of day. Now, if you can just come up with a nice, solid 150hp 2270 with nickies and ceramic lifters that can be bought for $8000, I think you’d be surprised at how many people take you up on it. You wouldn’t need exotic head work or other state of the art features to make 150hp that will run 100k miles. As the value of these cars increases, $8000 for a nice street motor is going to become increasingly attractive. Keep up the good work. People can say a lot of things about Jake Raby, but boring and indifferent are not among them. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

Steve,
You hit the nail on the head for me. I have been on the sidelines lamenting my non-raby choice which has turned out terribly and had I had a clearcut 8K raby choice the decision would have been easy.

[Jake Raby]

There is no way that I can let any engine with ceramic lifters and Nickies go for 8K- no way on the planet... Not even a 2056!

Right off the bat you are talking 3K for just two components.... Thats not counting any labor.

I will never, ever offer a longblock engine.. I'll close the doors before I will allow my reputation to be at the mercy of the tuner/installer of the carbs/ignition.....

I have never aimed toward outfitting the most cars with engines and never will. Creating standard engines is only being done to simplify things. The cost will be cheaper than it has for the last 3 years, but this does not mean i will take on more work if I get dozens of guys wanting the engines.. I will only take on what I can handle and what will keep the wait list in check, since thats why I am doing this as a more standardized process in the first place.

[ppickerell]

How many fucktard postings about mittelmotors viabitlity do we have to endure before we realize that there is a market for t4 "hero" standard package at 8K? There must be 20-30 immediate orders for t4 standard rat packages with no surpises from this board alone. Are the 356 and VW guys that well off that they don't ask the questions? I am uncomfortable being lumped together with nebulous and clueless 914 owners characterized as nimwits.

[Jake Raby]

Honestly with the conversion engines price is really hardly ever an issue..... Thats probably because the 356 guys are used to a STOCK engine costing 8K just to rebuild to get less than 90 HP from ... and the fact that the beetle guys have no option other than a suby to get reliable performance.... Thats why I am not standardizing those guys prices or limiting what I will do for them, because they have a huge desire for a custom engine and will pay for my efforts with pretty much no questions asked..

20-30 orders would fill my boards for another year+... I have only completed 24 engines this year since January and it looks like I won't even break 27 before years end... Doing this right takes time, else you end up like the guys that have a shitty rep because their product sucks...

I'd rather be hated for having outrageous prices but still have a quality engine to put my name on... Else I'd move my shop south of the border and let the sweat roll!!!

[rick 918-S]

QUOTE (ppickerell @ Nov 28 2005, 09:01 PM)

How many fucktard postings about  mittelmotors viabitlity do we have to endure before we realize that there is a market for t4 "hero" standard package at 8K? There must be 20-30 immediate orders for t4 standard rat packages with no surpises from this board alone. Are the 356 and VW guys that well off that they don't ask the questions? I am uncomfortable being lumped together with nebulous and clueless 914 owners characterized as nimwits.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif) You can't come here and call people names as a group, threaten to take your ball and go home, then when the guy you put in (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/hanged.gif) stocks and stoned in public exposes you, you come out all nicey nice. Oh woe is me.. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/jerkit.gif) I'd go search down your post but you deleted it. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dead horse.gif) go build a motor or something. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif)

And give the guy back his property shipping included. That may help make things right.

[Bleyseng]

shoot, I thought you were trying to match GEX's engine rebuild numbers for the year..... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif)

[J P Stein]

OK, I can't take anymore popcorn.
This thread has turned into another of Jake's self promotions.
Well done, Jake. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

[SirAndy]

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Nov 28 2005, 10:43 PM)

OK, I can't take anymore popcorn.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif)

[Jake Raby]

Thanks JP... Its a true talent to take a slam dunk thread and turn it around like I was able to! hell, I'm proud of myself on this one!!!!

LOL

[Bleyseng]

and you aren't even 50 yrs old yet! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/yellowsleep[1].gif)

[Lou W]

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