Flat labor rate $4,000
New parts $7,500
Crating charge $ 150
Core charge
Total estimated cost $11,650

Inclusive Opions:
Dyno tuning, (In lieu of warranty) $350
Cryogenic enhancement (partial) $262
Standard blueprinting service $550
Severe duty valve train $450
Extensive Dyno Testing $500
Composite lifters (if available) $600
Mallory Unilite Distributor $329

Optional items, (not included in "Total estimated cost") above:
$400 Crygenic treatment upgrade (full engine treatment)
$275 Ion Nitrided crankshaft
$125 Lightened flywheel
$2,800 Upgrade to programmable EFI
$810 Performance engine coatings package (thermal barrier, friction reduction & heat dispersants)
$2,000 LN Engineering Nickies cylinders (if available)
$1,250 914 DTM upgrade
$145 Full flow oiling system upgrades
$92 6 puck performance cluch disc

Total Option price: $7,897

Total price of engine & all options: $19,547 (not including exhaust & shipping)

This would have been heck of a 2270cc engine with everything. I wish I could of afforded it.

Yes, I'm the last to have backed out of a Raby engine.
I'm not here to bash Jake, just tell "the other side of the story"

Started in 1-5-05 with a phone call from Jake to talk what I wanted in an engine. Told him I wanted a 2270cc and what would cost to have one with all the bells & whilses. With Nickies, all performance coatings. He gives me a "rough" estimate of $11,000. 1-6-05 I sent my $200 deposit for an engine build. He calls every now & then, and chat for awhile. Calls 2 month ago, tells me looked over the engine and everything looked good except for the heads cracked but should be salvageable and will cost a little more to repair them.
Nothing more was said about money until he calls to say my spot is getting ready and E-mailed the proposal.
The whole time I'm thinking about $11,000. When I see my all "bells & whisles" engine to be $19,547. Sorry but that's way off even for a "rough" estimate. I just can't afford that at this time.

Jake builds super engines and has done alot for the 914 community.

I just wish he would be more truthful with his estimates. Even on this board he stated "Anywhere from 7K clear to 14.5K could be end the end result." When $19,547 is the end result as his propsal states above. As far as I'm concerned I should of had the propsal in January when I put my deposit down, not at the last minute when to find out the estimate nearly doubled.

Now that's the rest of the story.

Ralph

Yep...

And now.........it begins.

IMHO 19,000 for any streetable engine is just crazy

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Nov 26 2005, 08:45 PM)

QUOTE (Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Nov 26 2005, 09:38 PM)  :popcorn:

Hi Ralph

Glad you posted, I am a realy slow typer. I do not know Mr.Raby personally, just crossed a few posts, he is without doubt, the Type4 expert here. I was wandering WTF up with his "deadbeat 914 owner" thred.


It sounded very unprofessional. I have a shop for the last 10 years, and had have deals go south many times...no big deal...move on.

Then to bash 914 owners in the forum that probably has been a mojor source of free advertisement,
Tasteless... I am glad you are man anough to post and give your side of the story.

Mr.Raby seems to be an outstanding personality in the 914 comunity, my opinions are based on business ethnics and personal experience in my 25 years in the business. Lets chew on some food for thought

If you need to plunk 20K into a motor for a 914 to enjoy it, you've bought the wrong car.
20K for even a complete bells and whistles motor, is insane. Might as well sell it for 40K because the same type of customer, will pay either price $$$.
The highest bill to leave my shop was 15K for a 1993 Dodge twin turbo motor and clutch. I was on the phone with him all the time, faxed, email photos, and he came for periodic visits, This was to protect my ass and insure payment ! I have problems with the "holyer then thou" type of business people I run into today, but I couldn't imagine a diference of 8K. This is definately a comunications problem. In this price range, for a motor, this can't happen.
If you cancelled on the motor, isn't the production waiting list moving up faster?. Over 5 months you have to expect sour deals, what would happen if you did pay in advance ?. 10 months ? Come on.
I donno

Anywho... I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers, just an obervation/opinion from some guy on the other end of a phone line.

Later POZ

QUOTE (echocanyons @ Nov 26 2005, 08:40 PM)

IMHO 19,000 for any streetable engine is just crazy

Jag V12: head gasket blew, one valve seat dropped, did NOT hole a piston, but probably bent a valve. Estimate to repair: $15,000. That wasn't a complete rebuild, either. And don't even get started on the costs of typical Ferrari engine work...

Whenever you ask for anything "with all the bells and whistles", you should expect a high price tag. I'll agree that there should have been a more accurate estimate done up front, and jumping from $11K to $19K seems excessive, but there are a LOT of "bells and whistles" listed above. I would have renegotiated what was to be done and spent the original $11K (you'd still have a killer engine). If you say "give me the best of everything", then bitch about the price, well...

I do belive that Jake Knows what it cost to build a motor.
Joe

Did you receive a bid in writing initially?

WOW this is going to be interesting!

Near $20k?

















OK...just a second now...


Oh...uh-uh

For $20k I could have a 3.6 SIX and a 915 and..and..and





KT

Wow... $19k for a motor alone. I only see 356 and 993 owners plop that kind of cash on a car.

I applaud you for bringing to light your side of the story.

I just deleted my earlier post...

It just dawned on me...

This is none "O" my fuching bussiness.....

Clayton



Thanks Jasons....

that may be your smiley limit Trekkor!

QUOTE (pete-stevers @ Nov 26 2005, 09:42 PM)

WOW this is going to be interesting!

Actually it will probably just be a downward spiral of 914club conjecture and general malaise. At some point a longstanding clubmember will leave and start a new thread to testify why they must go. Everyone will reply and say "so long, you're a good fella". As a result, a new forum will be created called "The Theater". It will be exclusively for acting out lame drama.

Ctrl+Alt+Delete...hurry!


I'd love to have a 3.6

wow, $19,000.00 just for an engine? I never really knew what the breakdown would add up too, I was kinda thinking the type of work he does would be around $11,000.00, then, with all the suspension mods, transaxle mods, chassis kits, etc. this sure can be an expensive hobby.
Its looking more and more as a 6 for my car:ph34r:

Cost is a relative term. What may seem like a lot to me, may not be a lot to someone else.

The percentage increase would be a better way to judge this situation. In this case, the increase is 72%.

This may be a justified increase, or not. Regardless, it seems clear that we have a communication problem at a minimum.

Thanks for stepping up and posting, you obviously knew you'd get a less than friendly response from some. If you were quoted $11,650, and that did not include nickies, then frankly, I don't blame you a bit for backing out. For $19,000 you can get a new 3.8L six race motor with 320 super reliable horsepower, and a car worth every bit of $35k when you are done. I realize that the $19k quote includes the latest and greatest technology, and that costs money. But for an iron cylinder 2270, based on the current costs of materials and workmanship, I just can't make sense of it costing $11,650 in any way, shape, or form. No disrespect meant to Jake, I think he does amazing work, and I'd love to have one of his motors, but for $8000 I better get nickies, a full dyno tune, and lifetime subscription to Jake's toll free tech hotline.

aaawwww man......

there goes another expert that will never post here again.



as far as I know, Jake has never forced anyone here to buy a motor, and yet he plays here often and offers tons (errr .......I mean TONS) of free advice.

oh well

QUOTE

I will install a 993 3.6 in your car for $19,500. Line up.    914RS

from another thread.

I can tell you for $19,000.00 or a little less you can build a Polopolus 2.4 911 4 cylinder motor with 200+ HP.

IMHO if you were going to spend that kind of money you would have a very unique motor, it is 11lbs. lighter than a standard 911 motor and 5.5" shorter.

Perfect for a 914.

Posts like this make me so happy I made the decisions I did back in August.

what bugged me was that jake complained about this not once, but twice. everyone saw his contrition after he deleted the first thread, but came in again (i didn't bother reading it).

i just can't see jake airing dirty laundry here. bad 4 biz! but he's an artist, so his shop won't really suffer from it.

and at least he'll actually do the work.
i've been searching for someone local & reliable for 2+ years, and all i get is crap work, lip service and "summer storage" at their shop until i get fed up and take my car back.

so who looses here? everyone, esp. if jake cops a walk.

i wish i had his skillz... i'd be a millionare+ because most of you would have some type of rat under your hood!

You guys crack me up with popcorn

Looks to me like the only thing wrong is poor communications at the time of deposit/agreement. As a businessman you need to send a detailed quote and review costs before placing the order (standard business practice). I feel bad for Ralph having budgeted the $11K and thinking that was it. Ralph should have asked for a detailed quote and Jake should have communicated a finished price. Both parites should have gone over each detail of the engine build. They both share 50% blame. These things happen in business dealings. Everyone learned a lesson. Life goes on.

My reaction to Jakes engine breakdown is interesting. My first thought is the flat labor rate. He works cheap if you cost his labor rate at $100 per hr. (40) labor hours is very good. All the other numbers look good. I see nothing wrong with Jakes breakdown, custom motors are expensive no matter what brand.

Now everyone knows how to figure their budget or decide what type of engine to use. This should help Jakes future business. You step up or go another direction.

Tom

I'm in for a 5 pager anyone think more??

I'm having trouble understanding the $7500 estimate for new parts - which doesn't include a set of Nickies and composite lifters.

Thanks for the price break-down. I understand it all except for the "Full flow oiling system upgrades"...wazzat for a T4?

For me, $11K is an upper limit for a built T4 engine, I don't care what excuses you give me. Past that I'm looking for a real Porsche 6. $20K for a T4 engine? Get real.

Crap, almost forgot...

what did i miss??? (see avatar)

http://www.letsrumble.com/

so he's done with the 914?

and this is JUST a 2270? imagine what a bigger engine would be?

b

QUOTE

I'm in for a 5 pager anyone think more??

Yep, stay tuned. This is going to good. I am in it for the long haul. Eddy

I wonder what one of those T4 Turbo motors are? $25-30K maybe

recon!

recon!

we need some recon!

b

Chris Foley picked a good one. Anyones guess what the $7,500 breakdown could be on this line item???

Machining ???
Parts??

I kind of agree it's a little high & could have Nickies included?? I wonder why Ralph didn't ask??

Tom

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 27 2005, 10:31 AM)

so he's done with the 914? trek, your right man...AND the 911 community is solid...no egocentric people that cry like raby and this is JUST a 2270? imagine what a bigger engine would be? b

ok mr two face.....

"raby raby - when is your super MPG motor going to be done? sign me up!!!"

and now

QUOTE

trek, your right man...AND the 911 community is solid...no egocentric people that cry like raby

whats up with that?

MY OPINION on this?
none of this is any of our business. not our job to be involved between jake, roger, and god, or either's bankers....
this isnt about a six vs four debate....its about a guy wanted a super 4, and backed out because of a large jump in price. looks like some miscommunication between the above peoples.... again. not our place to be involved.

what will this acccomplish? driving an expert from out club. ill never beable to afford a raby motor...but i sure as hell appreciate all the tech advice he puts out here for free.

jump on the bandwagon and tear someone a new one, when we ourselves have no direct involvement.

not our place to meddle...and share our opinions of either party.

why are we all so divisive? one club, for one automobile.....

this thread sucks.


im outta here for a while

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Nov 27 2005, 12:20 PM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 27 2005, 10:31 AM) so he's done with the 914? trek, your right man...AND the 911 community is solid...no egocentric people that cry like raby and this is JUST a 2270? imagine what a bigger engine would be? b ok mr two face..... "raby raby - when is your super MPG motor going to be done? sign me up!!!" and now QUOTE trek, your right man...AND the 911 community is solid...no egocentric people that cry like raby whats up with that? MY OPINION on this? none of this is any of our business. not our job to be involved between jake, roger, and god, or either's bankers.... this isnt about a six vs four debate....its about a guy wanted a super 4, and backed out because of a large jump in price. looks like some miscommunication between the above peoples.... again. not our place to be involved. what will this acccomplish? driving an expert from out club. ill never beable to afford a raby motor...but i sure as hell appreciate all the tech advice he puts out here for free. jump on the bandwagon and tear someone a new one, when we ourselves have no direct involvement. not our place to meddle...and share our opinions of either party. why are we all so divisive? one club, for one automobile..... this thread sucks. im outta here for a while

he never stands on his word though....if he's still workin on the 914s great...if not, dont....

i dont think I would like doing business with raby after this.....


oh and aaron....maybe i should have put more emphasis on the fact i was being sarcastic.

its been more than three years in development?

b

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Nov 27 2005, 11:20 AM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 27 2005, 10:31 AM) so he's done with the 914? trek, your right man...AND the 911 community is solid...no egocentric people that cry like raby and this is JUST a 2270? imagine what a bigger engine would be? b ok mr two face..... "raby raby - when is your super MPG motor going to be done? sign me up!!!" and now QUOTE trek, your right man...AND the 911 community is solid...no egocentric people that cry like raby whats up with that? MY OPINION on this? none of this is any of our business. not our job to be involved between jake, roger, and god, or either's bankers.... this isnt about a six vs four debate....its about a guy wanted a super 4, and backed out because of a large jump in price. looks like some miscommunication between the above peoples.... again. not our place to be involved. what will this acccomplish? driving an expert from out club. ill never beable to afford a raby motor...but i sure as hell appreciate all the tech advice he puts out here for free. jump on the bandwagon and tear someone a new one, when we ourselves have no direct involvement. not our place to meddle...and share our opinions of either party. why are we all so divisive? one club, for one automobile..... this thread sucks. im outta here for a while

I told you not to wear those pink panties A-aron...they would just wad up on ya.

The hell with

As someone said, Jake doesn't force anyone to go out on the ledge....edge...with him. He wants you to pay for the trip, tho.
If you are so obsessed with being the underdog T-4 guy that you are willing to finance it, by all means, do so.

Ralph took a second look & chose not to. Pretty simple, eh?...Jake's histronics notwithstanding.

As a few have pointed out, this may drive Jake away from the fold. He has stated that, basicly, he needs 914 guys like he needs another hole in his head. The reverse it also true, of course. Most of Jake's "help" have been more like self promotion, IMO. Others who help, just for the hell of it, don't seem to attract such a rabid following.....which should tell us something.

If it takes 11K or 19k to make a silk purse of a T-4, that is
Jakes problem, not mine. For some prospective, a wide guts race 911 motor can easily top 30K. The bang for the buck ratio is up to each of us to decide.

That's it for me.
Back for more
(edit)
Get a grip, AAaron. Both parties brought the situation to the club's attention. What are we supposed to do, sit here and drool?

no big deal. i said it was my opinion, and others are entitled to share theirs also.



i got a PM saying my above post will result in a lawyer contacting me... ROFL

please refrain from talking after the feature film has started.

k

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Nov 27 2005, 10:20 AM)

this thread sucks. im outta here for a while

could you be a little more original please. that is so cliche these days

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Nov 27 2005, 11:54 AM)

please refrain from talking after the feature film has started. k

Sorry Kevin...I thought we were in the middle of a cartoon....

eh...i aint goin nowhere. sarcasm. just posted my opinion. take it for what it is worth (nothing? lol)

too funny.

lawyer

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Nov 27 2005, 10:54 AM)

please refrain from talking after the feature film has started. k

Now *that* is funny

QUOTE (SLITS @ Nov 27 2005, 10:31 AM)

I told you not to wear those pink panties A-aron...they would just wad up on ya.

aaron in pink panties? do i smell a calendar pic in the works?

was that lawyer threat serious?

QUOTE (TROJANMAN @ Nov 27 2005, 11:08 AM)

QUOTE (SLITS @ Nov 27 2005, 10:31 AM) I told you not to wear those pink panties A-aron...they would just wad up on ya. aaron in pink panties? do i smell a calendar pic in the works?