| QUOTE (olav @ Nov 27 2005, 12:13 PM) | ||||
 |
ill do it for 19k...
Full Version: Price of Jake's 2270cc
ill do it for 19k...
![popcorn[1].gif](http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif)
Time's have changed
Our members are getting worse
They won't obey their admins
They just want to fart and curse
Should we blame the admins?
Or blame Jake Raby?
Or should we blame the images in the garage?
No. Blame Canada
Blame Canada
With all their beady little eyes
And flapping heads so full of lies
Blame Canada
Blame Canada
We need to form a full assault
It's Canada's fault
Don't blame me
For my son Britt
He saw the darn post
And now he's off to hire a lawyer
And my boy Aaron once
Had my picture on his shelf
But now when I see him he tells me to f**k myself!
Well? Blame Canada
Blame Canada
It seems that everything's gone wrong
Since Canada came along
Blame Canada
Blame Canada
They're not even a real country anyway
My son could have been a doctor or a lawyer, rich and true
Instead he burned up like a piggy on a barbecue
Should we blame the matches?
Should we blame the fire?
Or the doctors who allowed him to expire?
Heck No
Blame Canada
Blame Canada
With all their hockey hullaballu
And that bitch Anne Murray too
Blame Canada
Shame on Canada
For the smut we must stop
The trash we must smash
Laughter and fun
must all be undone
We must blame them and cause a fuss
Before somebody thinks of blaming us!
I offer no apologies to South Park
Our members are getting worse
They won't obey their admins
They just want to fart and curse
Should we blame the admins?
Or blame Jake Raby?
Or should we blame the images in the garage?
No. Blame Canada
Blame Canada
With all their beady little eyes
And flapping heads so full of lies
Blame Canada
Blame Canada
We need to form a full assault
It's Canada's fault
Don't blame me
For my son Britt
He saw the darn post
And now he's off to hire a lawyer
And my boy Aaron once
Had my picture on his shelf
But now when I see him he tells me to f**k myself!
Well? Blame Canada
Blame Canada
It seems that everything's gone wrong
Since Canada came along
Blame Canada
Blame Canada
They're not even a real country anyway
My son could have been a doctor or a lawyer, rich and true
Instead he burned up like a piggy on a barbecue
Should we blame the matches?
Should we blame the fire?
Or the doctors who allowed him to expire?
Heck No
Blame Canada
Blame Canada
With all their hockey hullaballu
And that bitch Anne Murray too
Blame Canada
Shame on Canada
For the smut we must stop
The trash we must smash
Laughter and fun
must all be undone
We must blame them and cause a fuss
Before somebody thinks of blaming us!
I offer no apologies to South Park
Ok, got to laugh reading this thing. Looks like both parties should have had something in writting before cash was traded hands. Both parties equally at fault, but no big deal, live and learn. I'd never leave a deposit with out the full terms in writting, signed dated etc... Also I would not accept a deposit without the full terms in writting, signed dated etc...
Funny that the $11k rough estimate is about the standard price, and the options bump it up to the higher value. Just a hunch that maybe there was a missunderstanding on the the phone on the $11k, and since niether party got it in writting, we'll never know who really understood what was the real deal. So now we got a he said she said thing going. Maybe Jake ment to say the $11k was the non-option price, but he misspoke, or maybe the buyer missheard that the $11k was for the whole deal. Folks make mistakes. Paper work helps prevent mistakes.
This is really dumb, cause now there are accusations that quite frankly can't be backed up cause there was no paperwork when the money traded hands.
Shame on both of you for not putting it in writting, now go too your rooms and don't come out until you can both appologize for this stupid saga being posted here. I hope both of you learned from this experience. It cost both of you, Jake lost bussiness for his time slot, and the other guy lost his deposit. I say this should be a good leason learned for all of us on how important a contract is before money changes hands.
Frankly both you guys have embaressed yourselves by letting us all know how you made such a deal with no contract.
If your both real men, just apologize to each other (and please not on the public fourm, that would be grandstanding at this point) and move on.
That said I hope you get a nice engine, and that Jake continues to have good bussiness. I wish you both well.
Funny that the $11k rough estimate is about the standard price, and the options bump it up to the higher value. Just a hunch that maybe there was a missunderstanding on the the phone on the $11k, and since niether party got it in writting, we'll never know who really understood what was the real deal. So now we got a he said she said thing going. Maybe Jake ment to say the $11k was the non-option price, but he misspoke, or maybe the buyer missheard that the $11k was for the whole deal. Folks make mistakes. Paper work helps prevent mistakes.
This is really dumb, cause now there are accusations that quite frankly can't be backed up cause there was no paperwork when the money traded hands.
Shame on both of you for not putting it in writting, now go too your rooms and don't come out until you can both appologize for this stupid saga being posted here. I hope both of you learned from this experience. It cost both of you, Jake lost bussiness for his time slot, and the other guy lost his deposit. I say this should be a good leason learned for all of us on how important a contract is before money changes hands.
Frankly both you guys have embaressed yourselves by letting us all know how you made such a deal with no contract.
If your both real men, just apologize to each other (and please not on the public fourm, that would be grandstanding at this point) and move on.
That said I hope you get a nice engine, and that Jake continues to have good bussiness. I wish you both well.
I think the big question unanswered here is:
"Would the $19.500 for that engine have been worth it?"
My answer... Oh hell yes. But not everyone has that kind of chump change.
"Would the $19.500 for that engine have been worth it?"
My answer... Oh hell yes. But not everyone has that kind of chump change.
Listen
I talked with Jake on a kit. Yes he charges $$ and does great work. I decided I could not afford a full treat from him, no miss understanding, that said I puchased several key parts for my new motor from him knowing I got good advice (for free) and owed him the business.
What does any engine cost if it is coming from the top builder in the country? Top line 911 rebuld is more like $30K. Yes V8 crate motors can be had for $5K but what do you think Hendrick's or one of those guys would charge?
If I had deep pockets and full racer I would spend that kind of change. He gets enough business and does great work, no one who does business and buys his stuff complains.....do they?
Sorry you had miss communication, or that once he was talking $11K you still sent deposit.
Jake is high end, Matt Hoffman in high end, you pay the $$ you get really good
My 2 cents
I talked with Jake on a kit. Yes he charges $$ and does great work. I decided I could not afford a full treat from him, no miss understanding, that said I puchased several key parts for my new motor from him knowing I got good advice (for free) and owed him the business.
What does any engine cost if it is coming from the top builder in the country? Top line 911 rebuld is more like $30K. Yes V8 crate motors can be had for $5K but what do you think Hendrick's or one of those guys would charge?
If I had deep pockets and full racer I would spend that kind of change. He gets enough business and does great work, no one who does business and buys his stuff complains.....do they?
Sorry you had miss communication, or that once he was talking $11K you still sent deposit.
Jake is high end, Matt Hoffman in high end, you pay the $$ you get really good
My 2 cents
| QUOTE (qa1142 @ Nov 27 2005, 03:00 PM) |
| Jake is high end, Matt Hoffman in high end, you pay the $$ you get really good |
matt hoffman? the BMX legend?
or len hoffman, the vw head guy?
Mr Cox, I am Matt Hoffmans lawyer and want to inforn you in writing that you will soon be recieving a cease and decist order,banning you from using the likeness and name of my client in your online chatroom hyjinx. If you use Mr. hoffmans likeness one more time you will be subject to fines the like of which you have never seen Mr Hoffman makes his living off of his name and hard werk, and does not care for peons such as yourself to use it for their own personal gains.
Have a nice day, Herman How
Have a nice day, Herman How
| QUOTE (SLITS @ Nov 27 2005, 04:59 PM) |
| No. Blame Canada Blame Canada With all their beady little eyes And flapping heads so full of lies Blame Canada Blame Canada We need to form a full assault It's Canada's fault Don't blame me Well? Blame Canada Blame Canada It seems that everything's gone wrong Since Canada came along Blame Canada Blame Canada They're not even a real country anyway My son could have been a doctor or a lawyer, rich and true Instead he burned up like a piggy on a barbecue Should we blame the matches? Should we blame the fire? Or the doctors who allowed him to expire? Heck No Blame Canada Blame Canada With all their hockey hullaballu And that bitch Anne Murray too Blame Canada Shame on Canada For the smut we must stop The trash we must smash Laughter and fun must all be undone We must blame them and cause a fuss Before somebody thinks of blaming us! |
Slits...Canada says fuck you!
We still have the best weed
| QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Nov 27 2005, 03:16 PM) |
| We still have the best weed |
And skinnier women (well, people in general from my observations)!
As to "chasing away someone"...well, if that's the way they want to handle the situation, let 'em! It's always being said in here you need a thick skin. And if people are airing their problems here then damn right we can respond as it is a public forum.
Hmmm, $20K for a silk-purse 4-banger (nice, JP!) or a race prepped 6-banger? Seems to me the six would win, what's $10K more for, well, more?
Of course, for a street car I wouldn't want the "race prepped" engine so that would be money saved 
If it'is true that Raby's engines are the best then heck yeah they're gonna cost more. You pay for what you get and he should run with that American Dream! And if someone has the money to burn, let'em burn it! If he really does need 914 like a hole in the head then screw him, I wouldn't want him either. My guess that was said in simple frustration (he does seem to be frustrated a lot) and I hope he didn't honestly mean it as his personal research has benefited the T4 engine community. Passion for what he does comes in spades but the boy needs to delegate and take more vacations or rest periods. Burning out in ones passion isn't a pleasant life experience!
I can't believe a lawyer would be worried over a public forum
Must be a green one...what's he gonna do, monitor every chat and BBS, tap phone lines, read people's mail, etc. so his poor wittle client doesn't get his itty bitty feewings hurt? 
So how much good canadian grass can you stuff in the trunks, and send on south? Seems we need to smoke the mellow, or even the bomb. Can't you see we need to chill, send it south man, send it south.
Hey with the interest in alternate fuels, why not a pot burning 914 (hell VW had wood burning Bugs back in WWII days, really)
It would save oil, employ farmers, can been grown domestically, and would really lessen the impact of smog (or at least our negitive impressions of smog)!
Canada could form OPBC (Organization of Pot Burning Countries)!
Hey with the interest in alternate fuels, why not a pot burning 914 (hell VW had wood burning Bugs back in WWII days, really)
It would save oil, employ farmers, can been grown domestically, and would really lessen the impact of smog (or at least our negitive impressions of smog)!
Canada could form OPBC (Organization of Pot Burning Countries)!
isnt everything legal in Canada?
This thread cracks me up. However there is alot of wisdom spoken by a few people here. Couple of old guys and some with the insight of the operation. I know what the Jake's big motors cost, seen the bill my self. Promised not to let it out and I am a man of MY word. (buddy you ain't even close)
Couple pages back someone complained about not getting his car fixed all summer. Geesh you coulda bought a book and done it yourself!!!
Why is it that some people are afraid of a little grease and oil. If you think there is ONLY one person that can build a freaking engine....
well pay the nice man and move on.
I agree there was some miscomunication on both sides. Nobodies perfect and as long as you learn from your mistakes well Great. IF IT AIN'T IN WRITING
Couple pages back someone complained about not getting his car fixed all summer. Geesh you coulda bought a book and done it yourself!!!
Why is it that some people are afraid of a little grease and oil. If you think there is ONLY one person that can build a freaking engine....
well pay the nice man and move on.I agree there was some miscomunication on both sides. Nobodies perfect and as long as you learn from your mistakes well Great. IF IT AIN'T IN WRITING
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Nov 27 2005, 02:46 PM) | ||
matt hoffman? the BMX legend? or len hoffman, the vw head guy? |
matt len what the H_lls the difference
I would still have Jake build me a motor is money was no object.
I think Jake is off his meds, and I like the guy. I just checked his forum at www.shoptalkforums.com (scroll down to Aircooled Technology) and read some of his "announcements"
This whole $200 to get on the waiting list, then, at some point in the distant future, he'll put a proposal together which will include more specific pricing, and at that point 50% of the balance is due without question, is just nuckin futz.
He considers it backing out if you put down $200 to get on the waiting list, then you decline once the proposal is made. I kind of like the idea of paying a small refundable amount to get on the waiting list. It weeds out many of the dreamers. There should be no hard feelings at all if someone chooses to decline the final proposal months later. At that point, you'd cheerfully refund the money, thank them for the interest free loan, and move on to the next guy on your year long wait list.
It is pure insanity to expect someone to be held to numbers that are totally at your discretion.
If you go read his announcement in the aforementioned forum, he says and I quote:
"Porsche 914 customers have left me high and dry more than anyone else (sorry guys it's the truth) in fact 13 out of the 14 times this has occured in the last 4 years. So this is the 914 payment schedule
-90% of the ESTIMATED cost of the engine before being added to the wait list.
- Remainder due within 10 days of the completion of the engine.
The proposal process is altered for the 914 customers due to the 90% payment up front, my lawyer will handle this process for 914 customers and it will occur immediately upon the start of the project."
Notice that he refers to 90% of the ESTIMATED cost.......... he's telling us all to kiss his ass.
Genius may in fact be maddening. Oh, for the record, Jake has not contributed any worthwhile technical assistance for quite some time.
(To any lawyers who may take issue with the above, they are only my opinions to which I am fully entitled. Any attempts to use the Americans with Disabilities Act to justify the behavior in question will be immediately laughed at without reservation.)
This whole $200 to get on the waiting list, then, at some point in the distant future, he'll put a proposal together which will include more specific pricing, and at that point 50% of the balance is due without question, is just nuckin futz.
He considers it backing out if you put down $200 to get on the waiting list, then you decline once the proposal is made. I kind of like the idea of paying a small refundable amount to get on the waiting list. It weeds out many of the dreamers. There should be no hard feelings at all if someone chooses to decline the final proposal months later. At that point, you'd cheerfully refund the money, thank them for the interest free loan, and move on to the next guy on your year long wait list.
It is pure insanity to expect someone to be held to numbers that are totally at your discretion.
If you go read his announcement in the aforementioned forum, he says and I quote:
"Porsche 914 customers have left me high and dry more than anyone else (sorry guys it's the truth) in fact 13 out of the 14 times this has occured in the last 4 years. So this is the 914 payment schedule
-90% of the ESTIMATED cost of the engine before being added to the wait list.
- Remainder due within 10 days of the completion of the engine.
The proposal process is altered for the 914 customers due to the 90% payment up front, my lawyer will handle this process for 914 customers and it will occur immediately upon the start of the project."
Notice that he refers to 90% of the ESTIMATED cost.......... he's telling us all to kiss his ass.
Genius may in fact be maddening. Oh, for the record, Jake has not contributed any worthwhile technical assistance for quite some time.
(To any lawyers who may take issue with the above, they are only my opinions to which I am fully entitled. Any attempts to use the Americans with Disabilities Act to justify the behavior in question will be immediately laughed at without reservation.)
If you plunk down a deposit on a 10-20K motor and do not have a bid in writing then you are almost as dumb as me!!!!
The silence is deafening........
| QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Nov 27 2005, 03:16 PM) | ||
Slits...Canada says fuck you! We still have the best weed |
[QUOTE]
I was wondering how you made your living up there!
So the VW thing is just a cover?
It's a cash crop
The line between insanity and sanity is only measured on a scale of success......
And to Canada, our brethern to the North, I say...we can fly your flag better than you can......
PS...Send better weed..the Mexican shit is giving me the runs.
And to Canada, our brethern to the North, I say...we can fly your flag better than you can......
PS...Send better weed..the Mexican shit is giving me the runs.
SLITS, my crazy neighbor.....
the Mexican stuff makes me cough way too much....and it smells like gear oil too.
the Mexican stuff makes me cough way too much....and it smells like gear oil too.
| QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 27 2005, 09:20 PM) |
| SLITS, my crazy neighbor..... the Mexican stuff makes me cough way too much....and it smells like gear oil too. |
Hmmmmm....you must be gettin' your shit from TIT.***
***Tijuana Institute of Technology
my .02 . not every one that has a teener needs, can afford, or will want a [not to offend you jake] a over enginiered over refined engine.
for me when the time comes for the rebuild or six or ever eight conversion, i wont be building a daytona 500 capable v8, for a 24hrs le mans six. or a 2270 t4 that will only make 150hp but will out last me and the sheet metal on my teener.
i bought this car for; fun, fuel economy, and some thing that i won't lose value on. a $19K motor defeats most of that.
so jake is the guy to go to if you can't have anything but the best.
the rest of us will have to do what we can to find the best bang or best value that is in our budget.
jake needs to realize he has gone to the far side of what people will spend for an "affordable sports car", and be very frank on that point.
that is my puffed up ego centric opinion and i'm stickin to it.
p.s. for everone who bitches about how over rated or expensive jake is. step up do some research or post who you have found that can rebuild/ build a reliable quality t4 or start doing it your self if you feel you can do it.
jake i ask you to come down from your standard of excelence to offer truely affordable kits.
for me when the time comes for the rebuild or six or ever eight conversion, i wont be building a daytona 500 capable v8, for a 24hrs le mans six. or a 2270 t4 that will only make 150hp but will out last me and the sheet metal on my teener.
i bought this car for; fun, fuel economy, and some thing that i won't lose value on. a $19K motor defeats most of that.
so jake is the guy to go to if you can't have anything but the best.
the rest of us will have to do what we can to find the best bang or best value that is in our budget.
jake needs to realize he has gone to the far side of what people will spend for an "affordable sports car", and be very frank on that point.
that is my puffed up ego centric opinion and i'm stickin to it.
p.s. for everone who bitches about how over rated or expensive jake is. step up do some research or post who you have found that can rebuild/ build a reliable quality t4 or start doing it your self if you feel you can do it.
jake i ask you to come down from your standard of excelence to offer truely affordable kits.
Are we up to page 5 yet?
| QUOTE (SLITS @ Nov 28 2005, 12:17 AM) |
| PS...Send better weed..the Mexican shit is giving me the runs. |
I'd send the weed bro, but your guberment don't want ya to have the good shit.
Oh-oh....I've turned this into a political thread and now she'll be locked
Yes it is true, our gooberment doesn't inhale!
is the Canadian Gold legal there?
b
b
| QUOTE (Lou W @ Nov 27 2005, 08:27 PM) |
| Are we up to page 5 yet? |
i am only on page 2. i changed my settings to read 100 posts per page
(oops, just started page 3. must be upt o 200 replies.
)
Uhhh... Are you sure about that 200 count, Trojanman?
I commented in the post Jake made. He invited the comments by posting. You all know how I feel about the things he posted. Jake your a rude little man. You need to get a clue. Based on the other side of the story you also need to learn a serious business lesson. Your State Commerce Dept would roast you if they knew what you were up to. When I owned a shop I was required by law to give a written estimate. I was also not allowed to increase that written estimate beyond 10% without an agreed written change order. Shame on you for taking money without a written agreement.
Charge what you like but be up front about it. Build the best danm motors on the planet. But when you increase someones estimate by double and they get shocked out of their skull don't come over here crying about how you've been wronged. Call 914 people names, and threaten to never build another motor for 914 guy. 
Charge what you like but be up front about it. Build the best danm motors on the planet. But when you increase someones estimate by double and they get shocked out of their skull don't come over here crying about how you've been wronged.
Call 914 people names, and threaten to never build another motor for 914 guy.
| QUOTE (Tettster @ Nov 27 2005, 09:01 PM) |
| Uhhh... Are you sure about that 200 count, Trojanman? |
had it backwards.
i meant: 100 threads per page on in the forum and 40 posts per page on the topic. that would put us at 81. oops
thanks for pointing that out. fuchin' newbie.
![yellowsleep[1].gif](http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/yellowsleep[1].gif)
good night gracie.
If I read the posts right, Rog914 not only lost his $200 deposit, but the core 2L engine too. Thats worth quite a bit too... 
I got up early this A.M. to get the latest Jake news. Wow, (5) pages.
If what I am hearing is true Jake's "terms & condition of sale" is reason to drop him off the page. I agree with Rick-918-S & Bowlsby there are two sides to this story and Jake is not a fair bussinessman with that deal. It's all in his favor. Would you build a house with those conditions?? Answer=NO.
Having said that we need to start a thread with a list of other engine builders out there. I agree with another post not everyone needs a custom engine. How about a normal quality built engine. I'll call my engine builder today & see if he is still building type-4s.
Tom
If what I am hearing is true Jake's "terms & condition of sale" is reason to drop him off the page. I agree with Rick-918-S & Bowlsby there are two sides to this story and Jake is not a fair bussinessman with that deal. It's all in his favor. Would you build a house with those conditions?? Answer=NO.
Having said that we need to start a thread with a list of other engine builders out there. I agree with another post not everyone needs a custom engine. How about a normal quality built engine. I'll call my engine builder today & see if he is still building type-4s.
Tom
my question is.....why just $200 dep. for such a kick ass engine? damn Jake, with your talent, bump it up to 75% of projected cost to separate the men from the boys
Meares.
When you purchase any high end stuff, think like a business. There are procedures for qualifing customers. The first rule is a complete quote of the service/product. Jake & customer should go over the written quote item for item. Both sign off after they agree to price, terms of payment, delivery (big one). If necessasry a businessman will take a credit check if in doubt. There are many ways for Jake to protect his cash flow. Example, 10% at time of order, payment in full when parts are received then progress payments as work progresses. Remember everything starts with a clear understanding at the time of the purchase order. Forgot to mention it's common to have change orders along the way. They must be signed off before starting work. This is just an example. Just good business 101. From what I understand everything went wrong when they both didn't communicate. I really feel bad for Ralph, he probabally thought he was getting all the bells & whissels (spell??) & saved for his quoted $11K dream engine. Jake is the businessman and gone through this many times. Shame on him for not guiding his customer along. After hearing all these things, Jake should take more responsibilty for his actions. He treated the problem like the world was against him. This other side of the story tells us different.
Tom
Off my soap box. There are other engine builders out there. We need to develop a list for our guys so they have a choice.
When you purchase any high end stuff, think like a business. There are procedures for qualifing customers. The first rule is a complete quote of the service/product. Jake & customer should go over the written quote item for item. Both sign off after they agree to price, terms of payment, delivery (big one). If necessasry a businessman will take a credit check if in doubt. There are many ways for Jake to protect his cash flow. Example, 10% at time of order, payment in full when parts are received then progress payments as work progresses. Remember everything starts with a clear understanding at the time of the purchase order. Forgot to mention it's common to have change orders along the way. They must be signed off before starting work. This is just an example. Just good business 101. From what I understand everything went wrong when they both didn't communicate. I really feel bad for Ralph, he probabally thought he was getting all the bells & whissels (spell??) & saved for his quoted $11K dream engine. Jake is the businessman and gone through this many times. Shame on him for not guiding his customer along. After hearing all these things, Jake should take more responsibilty for his actions. He treated the problem like the world was against him. This other side of the story tells us different.
Tom
Off my soap box. There are other engine builders out there. We need to develop a list for our guys so they have a choice.
yep....being clear and concise solves A LOT!!!!
| QUOTE (Thomas J Bliznik @ Nov 28 2005, 04:22 AM) |
| Having said that we need to start a thread with a list of other engine builders out there. I agree with another post not everyone needs a custom engine. How about a normal quality built engine. I'll call my engine builder today & see if he is still building type-4s. |
I would like to see this also. Seems like there should be some dependable alternatives for us poor folks.
Nothing against Jake, He has his market. But Who builds 914 motors for the working stiff?
Who builds 914 motors for the working stiff?
Precision Motion / Kravig Engineering (Riverside, CA) has / had a completely rebuilt 2.0L. Their price was $4500.
Car Craft (Riverside, CA) would build a stock type 4, assuming no extensive headwork, for about $1300.
Others can now chime in.............
Car Craft (Riverside, CA) would build a stock type 4, assuming no extensive headwork, for about $1300.
Others can now chime in.............
It is not only Jake that made the mistake of no contract. the buyer made the mistake of sending his money with no contract. It may have not been easy come, but it was easy go. Both parties equally dumb. Buyer beware is always a good thing to remember. I beware before I part with cash and no contract. Both the bussiness man and the buyer should know better. Yeah there are some states with laws requiring contract for automotive repair (California has a state department for that(which i think is a waste of my tax money) If people is so dumb to part with money like that, the state really has no bussiness stopping them. But I guess that is government protecting somefolks from themselves, which skews the whole thing. Folks think the government should protect them, or have this attidute that, hey I didn't make a dumb mistake sending money to someone with no contract, thus I will bitch and moan. Help I need the government to protect me, I am too stupid to handle my own affairs as an adult!!! Look i assume you both are over 18 years of age, and should know better, have a little more sense of the value of money, and the importance of a contract.
That said, Ken Jenson at Donsco in Belmont CA does nice engine work. Made me a nice 2180 for my bug, he has type I, IV and 356 engines l last I saw in his shop. When i made the deal with him, We both sat down and and got an estimate wrote up. He sestimated labour and parts, and we came pretty damn close to that target. (some parts had slightly changed in price, and we discovered some extra headwork was required, but it was all understood and written down. no law prompted this written contract (although there might be a law for it in Nazi California) Law or not, I would have never even left my engine much less a deposit without some contract. The engine builder also wanted it in writting, gawd, could that just be common sense?
Seems a lot of common sense is lacking, no contracts (both parties fault) Public dissing (not good for bussiness) (and it makes the buyer look even more the fool) (hey I have a car for sale, please mail me cash as a deposit, well discuss price and condition later!)
Now only 914 owners have to pay up front? i guess if i ever get a raby engine it is going in my Bug or Bus or Ghia, not my 914.
This whole thing has broken down fast. The internet can make or break a reputation fast. We got two guys just shooting themselves in the foot over and over again. It was intersting at first (good for a few laughes) but hell jokes get old.
I think the joke is on both you jokers. Ha Ha Ha, and it just keeps going.
That said, Ken Jenson at Donsco in Belmont CA does nice engine work. Made me a nice 2180 for my bug, he has type I, IV and 356 engines l last I saw in his shop. When i made the deal with him, We both sat down and and got an estimate wrote up. He sestimated labour and parts, and we came pretty damn close to that target. (some parts had slightly changed in price, and we discovered some extra headwork was required, but it was all understood and written down. no law prompted this written contract (although there might be a law for it in Nazi California) Law or not, I would have never even left my engine much less a deposit without some contract. The engine builder also wanted it in writting, gawd, could that just be common sense?
Seems a lot of common sense is lacking, no contracts (both parties fault) Public dissing (not good for bussiness) (and it makes the buyer look even more the fool) (hey I have a car for sale, please mail me cash as a deposit, well discuss price and condition later!)
Now only 914 owners have to pay up front? i guess if i ever get a raby engine it is going in my Bug or Bus or Ghia, not my 914.
This whole thing has broken down fast. The internet can make or break a reputation fast. We got two guys just shooting themselves in the foot over and over again. It was intersting at first (good for a few laughes) but hell jokes get old.
I think the joke is on both you jokers. Ha Ha Ha, and it just keeps going.
| QUOTE (dmenche914 @ Nov 28 2005, 10:34 AM) |
| no law prompted this written contract (although there might be a law for it in Nazi California) |
B.A.R. = Bureau of Automotive Repair (That damn Nazi organization)
| QUOTE (SLITS @ Nov 28 2005, 07:27 AM) |
| Precision Motion / Kravig Engineering (Riverside, CA) has / had a completely rebuilt 2.0L. Their price was $4500. Car Craft (Riverside, CA) would build a stock type 4, assuming no extensive headwork, for about $1300. Others can now chime in............. |
Not to mention you can walk into a dealership and ask for a 2.0L Type IV crate motor. Sure it would come from Germany, but it would still be less than $6000.
consensus= This ain't `Nam, this is bowling....there are rules in bowling.
quote from "The Big Lebowski"
b
OK..
Now this side of the story.
First off this was a PROPOSAL, it was not a tally at the END of a build like so many builders will take advantage of. At this point of my process the customer gets a feel for what I am including in the engine package to make it "up to speed". I do this because I know what the base engine was equipped with and I also know what the engine will need to meet the customer's desires (at minimum).
I do this proposal at the point I do because I want to ensure that the customer knows exactly what things are going to cost and when I will be finished. Unlike other establishments you get no suprises at the end of the project as this document states the exact cost to the dollar except shipping. when a customer and I first make contact it can be as much as a solid year before we get to the proposal process. in ROG 914's case it was about 10 months if my memory serves me correctly. A whole lot can happen in 10 months time and due to that an estimated cost is something that I can't even think about giving accurately that far in advance. In the last 10 months gas prices went up almost 2 dollars a gallon in some places and some of my parts are now 100 bucks more than they were then. The price of Len's cylinder head work has also increased, these are just a couple of things that increase the difficulty of my projects and customer relations when customers remain on the wait list for so long.
Keep in mind that its TOTALLY normal for me to hear horror stories from other establishments that have no proposal process. It is typical for these shops to upcharge the customer 30-50% at the end of the build, after the job is done and I have heard as much as 70% from one Porsche shop in Florida. Remember that all I had from ROG914 money wise was 200.00, not 2K and not 5K+.
When ROG 914 and myself spoke I was right smack dab in the mdlle of testing EFI systems (and I told him that) I had no idea which system I was going to use and I had no what throttle bodies, fuel pump and etc was going to work the best, nor did i know how much extra time I was going to have to expend to tune the EFI system on the dyno. This WAS more than I had anticipated when he and I spoke, and we discussed that fact.
I then break down some of the most important parts of the things I have chosen as part of the baseline prices, these are known as "Inclusive options". Basically they are things that would be an option and *COULD* be taken away if the cost of the base engine is out of the persons budget. If you do the math there you will see that 2,191.00 of the cost of the base engine could have been discounted. This would have lowered the "New parts" tally to 5,706.00 which is only slightly more than the cost of a 2270 engine kit. (kit cost about 4,700.00 and that difference would have been with his cylinder head work.
Now we get to the options portion of the proposal... This is 100% CUSTOMER CHOSEN and NONE of it is a must for the engine to perform to the likeness of it's "base engine" derivative. Doing thisngs this way lets the customer trick the engine out as much as they want, but still remain within their own budget, since they are picking the options. Lets go over them real quick
$400 Crygenic treatment upgrade (full engine treatment)
>>>>I already cryo a huge chunk of the engine. This upgrade is less than the cost of even doing 1/4 of the engine if you do it off the street, but it gets everything that benefits from cryo processed. Is this a must- Nope...
$275 Ion Nitrided crankshaft
>>>> This is mostly for race engines, but I give this option to those who are interested in Nickies because that means thay are already concerned with longevity and this process is all about longevity. Is it a must- Nope.
$125 Lightened flywheel
>>>> This is an option because some 914 customers don't wish to have their lightened. Is it a must- Nope.
$2,800 Upgrade to programmable EFI
>>>> This is the cost to upgrade to a 100% complete EFI arrangement and have it installed on the engine and TUNED. The tuning of this arrangement can effectively double the amount of time that the engine is on the dyno and it requires myself AND Brent to do it, instead of ONLY my time. The kit is complete from the fuel pump to the pressure regulator and the customer's parts are used for tuning. This allows the customer to install the engine and only have to set deceleration values. Ask Mueller how much of a benefit this is! Is this a necessity- Nope because carbs were included in the base engine.
$810 Performance engine coatings package (thermal barrier, friction reduction & heat dispersants)
>>> This is for the POFESSIONAL application of coatings to the entire engine. This includes shiping incurred to get these components to THREE different coaters across the country as not one of them has the best proceses for all the components. This is NOT marked up a penny on this proposal, it just adds to the life and temperatures of my engine. Is it a necessity- Nope.
$2,000 LN Engineering Nickies cylinders (if available)
>>>>Self explanatory and they are 350 bucks LESS than LN charges for them.
$1,250 914 DTM upgrade
>>>The customer ASKED for this to be included specifically and it is 100% complete with all of it's hardware and sealing tin and 99% of it is installed. Is it a necessity- Nope.
$145 Full flow oiling system upgrades
>>>>This one is an option for teeners because it requires more work to install into the car if the DTM is not used and some people do not want to spring for it and the hasseles involved. Its 15 bucks more than the full flow kit on my site. necessity- Nope.
$92 6 puck performance cluch disk
>>>> Same price it cost on my site.. It does not have to be used but it has much better longevity with serious power than anything else..
So as you can see that entire engine with more things added to it than it needs definately adds up to a big price tag. If you will not ALL the options that took the price form 11K clear to 19K were only parts additions, most of which were not marked up over retail and most that were BELOW retail. Yet again this was a proposal and the customer had 100% control of the reins and what he wanted to spend for the project. This is the reason why I do a proposal and stick to it during the entire build process, it helps keep things clear that have so many variables- the engine has over 400 parts that comprise it top to bottom so as you can guess this can get amazingly diffiult to keep track of without the proposal.
Now for 19K what would the customer have gotten?? Well first off if he chose all those items I would have went ahea and upgraded him to a 2563cc / 200HP engine for the same cost, because all those exotic components cost the same for a 2270 or a 2563. The head work would have been more but more than likely I would have eat that myself. Since the engine has all the components of a Super Hero the labor to build it would be the same as the much larger and more powerful Super Hero engine. This would certainly help make the cost more justifible to the customer and woulod have yielded an engine with the same life span, same maintenance and same MPG- just more power. Have I done this before?? You damn right, probably 5 times in the past two years.
Now lets get to the heart of this particular story:
When the customer received this proposal he mentioned that the $$ was a concern. I then told him that he could step back down to the base engine (nothing wrong with that) as it would serve his purpose just fine and make a solid 155HP and live an 80+K life span. He then seemed like he didn't know what to do so I told him to sleep on it for a couple of days and let me know what he wanted to do. At this point I expressed my dis-taste for builds that do not go through and since he is a member here he surely already knew this. Upon contact the 3rd time he said that he did not wish to go forward and at that point I told him that we could settle for a less expensive base engine to keep prices down if that was a problem. He then stated that the money he had set aside for the project had fizzled away and he did not want to go forward... Now with that last sentence stated, why does the cost matter? I had already made more than one attempt to keep the customer happy and kept him from falling out of line, in fact I told him I would do whatever he needed (within reason) to keep that from occuring. Now the base engine was about 600 bucks more than he thought it was going to be for 10 months and it would not have EFI or coating or Nickies but it would still generate about the same HP, so why didn't he make a compromise???? did he lack even the 11K that the build was "estimated" to cost?? Only he knows that.
This customer and myself have talked multiple tmes since January and we always got along. Hell, he even sent me a vintage valve grinding machine before we were even discussing an engine build! Even though he has diclosed information here that may be detrimental to my business if the individual does not read my side of the story- I don't care. I have never been "mad" at him, I was disappointed that this happened again and it happened with another 914 customer- maybe that was just a coincidence, but 13 out of 14 seems pretty consistent to me and it certainly deserved some head scratching.
So.. What does this boil down to?? The customer was told a rough estimate for an engine that was going to include two components that were not even developed yet and still under going test work. One was the EFI and the other was the 914 DTM, both of which are expensive units and the 914 DTM is still not 100% ready to retail even as we speak.
Yes, perhaps I was wrong with the quote, but this just further teaches me not to give any quotes until the proposal is ready and we are within a few WEEKS of beginning the process.
I want to go a little further with this post and say the following: This last little problem has convinced me that my system needs improvement if we will having wait times that are approaching past the 5 month mark. None of these things were as bad when I had a 4-7 month wait as they are now that I have a 7+ month wait. I will continue working off the backlogs and I will not take on any more engine build jobs (no spots held) until I have the wait list down below 6 months so it is managable.
I have also decided that 914 engines will not be custom any longer and only a couple of options will be available. I will only off the 2270, 2316 and 2563cc combinations and the only Nickies engine available will be the 2563. Coatings are no longer an option, neither are the things that can make engine builds get out of control parts wise. This will hopefully make things easier for me and more stream lined.
As I had said before, I had no hard feelings for ROG914. At least we were able to get this situation taken care of before the job was underay and more than just 200.00 was in question. The proposal did its job and spelled things out clearly and allowed the custiomer to employ as much of my development as he wanted. The proposal is there with NO FINE PRINT up front- it doesn't get any better than that and if i could do a proposal 8 months in advance, I would. I try my hardest to make enough updates that in 8 months the engine thats proposaed would be able to benefit from more advancements. The thing thats worse than anything is modifying an existing proposal to incorporate new advancements 1/2 way through the job- I don't do it because every time that I have I lost my ass! Heck in 8 months i hope to have roller lifters as an option for every engine I build- but since I have no idea what that cost will be in the end how can I propose it now??? Thats just an example of why I wait till I am 8 weeks out before doing a proposal.
If you guys here are upset with me, or the way i have handled this- I'm sorry. All I can say is that this business is VERY hard to run due to the fact that I do not wish to be a "job shop" and just turn engines out as mass produced units. The point of being fair to myself and the customer is VERY hard to dictate and I try the best I can to do so. I feel quite sure that the long wait times and the complexity of my engines are the root of these issues and thats why I can see that changes are necessary that I previously had not considered.(the biggest being going back to more standardized builds)
I know there are a few club members that are taking this rare opportunity of a displeased customer to bash me, or kick me in the gut. All I can say to that is that, well they don't get the chance very often and they better take those shots while they can.
BTW- as far as not being of much technical assistance lately- well you can think
for that.. I got tired of making posts that eneded up on someone else's website. It appears that he may be gone now (at least he is off the samba) so I might be able to share information more often without being worried about it getting copied.
Now this side of the story.
First off this was a PROPOSAL, it was not a tally at the END of a build like so many builders will take advantage of. At this point of my process the customer gets a feel for what I am including in the engine package to make it "up to speed". I do this because I know what the base engine was equipped with and I also know what the engine will need to meet the customer's desires (at minimum).
I do this proposal at the point I do because I want to ensure that the customer knows exactly what things are going to cost and when I will be finished. Unlike other establishments you get no suprises at the end of the project as this document states the exact cost to the dollar except shipping. when a customer and I first make contact it can be as much as a solid year before we get to the proposal process. in ROG 914's case it was about 10 months if my memory serves me correctly. A whole lot can happen in 10 months time and due to that an estimated cost is something that I can't even think about giving accurately that far in advance. In the last 10 months gas prices went up almost 2 dollars a gallon in some places and some of my parts are now 100 bucks more than they were then. The price of Len's cylinder head work has also increased, these are just a couple of things that increase the difficulty of my projects and customer relations when customers remain on the wait list for so long.
Keep in mind that its TOTALLY normal for me to hear horror stories from other establishments that have no proposal process. It is typical for these shops to upcharge the customer 30-50% at the end of the build, after the job is done and I have heard as much as 70% from one Porsche shop in Florida. Remember that all I had from ROG914 money wise was 200.00, not 2K and not 5K+.
When ROG 914 and myself spoke I was right smack dab in the mdlle of testing EFI systems (and I told him that) I had no idea which system I was going to use and I had no what throttle bodies, fuel pump and etc was going to work the best, nor did i know how much extra time I was going to have to expend to tune the EFI system on the dyno. This WAS more than I had anticipated when he and I spoke, and we discussed that fact.
I then break down some of the most important parts of the things I have chosen as part of the baseline prices, these are known as "Inclusive options". Basically they are things that would be an option and *COULD* be taken away if the cost of the base engine is out of the persons budget. If you do the math there you will see that 2,191.00 of the cost of the base engine could have been discounted. This would have lowered the "New parts" tally to 5,706.00 which is only slightly more than the cost of a 2270 engine kit. (kit cost about 4,700.00 and that difference would have been with his cylinder head work.
Now we get to the options portion of the proposal... This is 100% CUSTOMER CHOSEN and NONE of it is a must for the engine to perform to the likeness of it's "base engine" derivative. Doing thisngs this way lets the customer trick the engine out as much as they want, but still remain within their own budget, since they are picking the options. Lets go over them real quick
$400 Crygenic treatment upgrade (full engine treatment)
>>>>I already cryo a huge chunk of the engine. This upgrade is less than the cost of even doing 1/4 of the engine if you do it off the street, but it gets everything that benefits from cryo processed. Is this a must- Nope...
$275 Ion Nitrided crankshaft
>>>> This is mostly for race engines, but I give this option to those who are interested in Nickies because that means thay are already concerned with longevity and this process is all about longevity. Is it a must- Nope.
$125 Lightened flywheel
>>>> This is an option because some 914 customers don't wish to have their lightened. Is it a must- Nope.
$2,800 Upgrade to programmable EFI
>>>> This is the cost to upgrade to a 100% complete EFI arrangement and have it installed on the engine and TUNED. The tuning of this arrangement can effectively double the amount of time that the engine is on the dyno and it requires myself AND Brent to do it, instead of ONLY my time. The kit is complete from the fuel pump to the pressure regulator and the customer's parts are used for tuning. This allows the customer to install the engine and only have to set deceleration values. Ask Mueller how much of a benefit this is! Is this a necessity- Nope because carbs were included in the base engine.
$810 Performance engine coatings package (thermal barrier, friction reduction & heat dispersants)
>>> This is for the POFESSIONAL application of coatings to the entire engine. This includes shiping incurred to get these components to THREE different coaters across the country as not one of them has the best proceses for all the components. This is NOT marked up a penny on this proposal, it just adds to the life and temperatures of my engine. Is it a necessity- Nope.
$2,000 LN Engineering Nickies cylinders (if available)
>>>>Self explanatory and they are 350 bucks LESS than LN charges for them.
$1,250 914 DTM upgrade
>>>The customer ASKED for this to be included specifically and it is 100% complete with all of it's hardware and sealing tin and 99% of it is installed. Is it a necessity- Nope.
$145 Full flow oiling system upgrades
>>>>This one is an option for teeners because it requires more work to install into the car if the DTM is not used and some people do not want to spring for it and the hasseles involved. Its 15 bucks more than the full flow kit on my site. necessity- Nope.
$92 6 puck performance cluch disk
>>>> Same price it cost on my site.. It does not have to be used but it has much better longevity with serious power than anything else..
So as you can see that entire engine with more things added to it than it needs definately adds up to a big price tag. If you will not ALL the options that took the price form 11K clear to 19K were only parts additions, most of which were not marked up over retail and most that were BELOW retail. Yet again this was a proposal and the customer had 100% control of the reins and what he wanted to spend for the project. This is the reason why I do a proposal and stick to it during the entire build process, it helps keep things clear that have so many variables- the engine has over 400 parts that comprise it top to bottom so as you can guess this can get amazingly diffiult to keep track of without the proposal.
Now for 19K what would the customer have gotten?? Well first off if he chose all those items I would have went ahea and upgraded him to a 2563cc / 200HP engine for the same cost, because all those exotic components cost the same for a 2270 or a 2563. The head work would have been more but more than likely I would have eat that myself. Since the engine has all the components of a Super Hero the labor to build it would be the same as the much larger and more powerful Super Hero engine. This would certainly help make the cost more justifible to the customer and woulod have yielded an engine with the same life span, same maintenance and same MPG- just more power. Have I done this before?? You damn right, probably 5 times in the past two years.
Now lets get to the heart of this particular story:
When the customer received this proposal he mentioned that the $$ was a concern. I then told him that he could step back down to the base engine (nothing wrong with that) as it would serve his purpose just fine and make a solid 155HP and live an 80+K life span. He then seemed like he didn't know what to do so I told him to sleep on it for a couple of days and let me know what he wanted to do. At this point I expressed my dis-taste for builds that do not go through and since he is a member here he surely already knew this. Upon contact the 3rd time he said that he did not wish to go forward and at that point I told him that we could settle for a less expensive base engine to keep prices down if that was a problem. He then stated that the money he had set aside for the project had fizzled away and he did not want to go forward... Now with that last sentence stated, why does the cost matter? I had already made more than one attempt to keep the customer happy and kept him from falling out of line, in fact I told him I would do whatever he needed (within reason) to keep that from occuring. Now the base engine was about 600 bucks more than he thought it was going to be for 10 months and it would not have EFI or coating or Nickies but it would still generate about the same HP, so why didn't he make a compromise???? did he lack even the 11K that the build was "estimated" to cost?? Only he knows that.
This customer and myself have talked multiple tmes since January and we always got along. Hell, he even sent me a vintage valve grinding machine before we were even discussing an engine build! Even though he has diclosed information here that may be detrimental to my business if the individual does not read my side of the story- I don't care. I have never been "mad" at him, I was disappointed that this happened again and it happened with another 914 customer- maybe that was just a coincidence, but 13 out of 14 seems pretty consistent to me and it certainly deserved some head scratching.
So.. What does this boil down to?? The customer was told a rough estimate for an engine that was going to include two components that were not even developed yet and still under going test work. One was the EFI and the other was the 914 DTM, both of which are expensive units and the 914 DTM is still not 100% ready to retail even as we speak.
Yes, perhaps I was wrong with the quote, but this just further teaches me not to give any quotes until the proposal is ready and we are within a few WEEKS of beginning the process.
I want to go a little further with this post and say the following: This last little problem has convinced me that my system needs improvement if we will having wait times that are approaching past the 5 month mark. None of these things were as bad when I had a 4-7 month wait as they are now that I have a 7+ month wait. I will continue working off the backlogs and I will not take on any more engine build jobs (no spots held) until I have the wait list down below 6 months so it is managable.
I have also decided that 914 engines will not be custom any longer and only a couple of options will be available. I will only off the 2270, 2316 and 2563cc combinations and the only Nickies engine available will be the 2563. Coatings are no longer an option, neither are the things that can make engine builds get out of control parts wise. This will hopefully make things easier for me and more stream lined.
As I had said before, I had no hard feelings for ROG914. At least we were able to get this situation taken care of before the job was underay and more than just 200.00 was in question. The proposal did its job and spelled things out clearly and allowed the custiomer to employ as much of my development as he wanted. The proposal is there with NO FINE PRINT up front- it doesn't get any better than that and if i could do a proposal 8 months in advance, I would. I try my hardest to make enough updates that in 8 months the engine thats proposaed would be able to benefit from more advancements. The thing thats worse than anything is modifying an existing proposal to incorporate new advancements 1/2 way through the job- I don't do it because every time that I have I lost my ass! Heck in 8 months i hope to have roller lifters as an option for every engine I build- but since I have no idea what that cost will be in the end how can I propose it now??? Thats just an example of why I wait till I am 8 weeks out before doing a proposal.
If you guys here are upset with me, or the way i have handled this- I'm sorry. All I can say is that this business is VERY hard to run due to the fact that I do not wish to be a "job shop" and just turn engines out as mass produced units. The point of being fair to myself and the customer is VERY hard to dictate and I try the best I can to do so. I feel quite sure that the long wait times and the complexity of my engines are the root of these issues and thats why I can see that changes are necessary that I previously had not considered.(the biggest being going back to more standardized builds)
I know there are a few club members that are taking this rare opportunity of a displeased customer to bash me, or kick me in the gut. All I can say to that is that, well they don't get the chance very often and they better take those shots while they can.
BTW- as far as not being of much technical assistance lately- well you can think
for that.. I got tired of making posts that eneded up on someone else's website. It appears that he may be gone now (at least he is off the samba) so I might be able to share information more often without being worried about it getting copied.
ok, thanks Jake for the post, clears up a few things
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