 The $5,000 Type IV?, What would it look like? |
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| horizontally-opposed |
 Nov 29 2005, 07:06 PM
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#1
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Advanced Member  Group: Members Posts: 3,432 Joined: 12-May 04 From: San Francisco Member No.: 2,058 Region Association: None 
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So I can't (and won't) argue with Jake's policies or pricing. Hell, I helped publicize his acheivements and remain very impressed by them. So let's NOT DEBATE THEM here -- please take that to another thread.
In the meantime, though, I think $5,000 (carbs and ignition included?) seems a far more approachable number for a lot of people. I wouldn't expect to get anything but short-lived junk for $1,300 to $2,600 -- unless I was building it myself. So what are the possibilities at $5,000 to maybe $6,000? What kind of power, what kind of longevity? Could 120 or 130 hp be so hard to get with decent longevity? I ask it more as theory and as a business opportunity/service someone could provide the community with -- someone who is well-known as a good engine builder. The 2.0-liter (based on a 1.7) in my 1973 914 has not left the chassis since at least 1986 -- it ain't got much power, but it was obviously built right. Rather than specific answers, I am hoping to open up a direction of travel for Type IV owners on a real-world budget and (hopefully) a resource to fit that niche. Or am I alone? (running for cover) pete |
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Replies(100 - 119)
| rhodyguy |
Nov 30 2005, 01:49 PM
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#101
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Chimp Sanctuary NW. Check it out. Group: Members Posts: 22,080 Joined: 2-March 03 From: Orion's Bell. The BELL! Member No.: 378 Region Association: Galt's Gulch |
i got just under 27mpg (adjusted for tire/speedo error) a few weeks ago driving down to the ocean. 40mm carbs, cam unkown, mallory dist. i can live with that. driving habits contribute to high fuel consumption.
k |
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| r_towle |
Nov 30 2005, 01:58 PM
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#102
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Custom Member Group: Members Posts: 24,574 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Taxachusetts Member No.: 124 Region Association: North East States
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Book time is to even out the guesstimates... The book says ten hours for a heater core...that is what they charge...if you dont like that...go somewhere else... When you get quoted 1k to dyno tune an engine...dont argue..that is the price...if its to much..move on... You cannot control the price from a vendor...you can control where you shop...it is that simple... Paying by the hour of real time worked is a joke.. There is alot more overhead in running a business that needs to be paid for somehow...it comes off of every transaction... How about the 15 minute phone call...who pays for that..you ??? When you call a lawyer...you are billed...but when you call a mechanic, you ask advice, you talk for an hour...yet that mechanic did not get paid for that hour..nor did they get any billable work done during that hour.... business has alot of complex issues that come up the minute you open up a shop that has lights and heat, and employees and so forth... It is never going to be a simple billable rate of x per hour....its x per hour, plus ovehead...plus time loss. plus plus plus plus... I think that what our fair canadian has offered is perfect...dont abuse him for having the balls to state his prices...dont argue with him about his prices...he gave it alot of thought...those are the prices.. If you want to open a business building engines...state your prices here...if they are cheap enough, you will get business...but with that cheap customer comes alot of expectations that you will need to manage and ensure you have a happy customer in the end... BTW...I think for 5k a 2056 built for either Djet, or Carbs is all that should be offered...no options at all.. Two engines..one with one cam and head config...the other with a different cam and head config. Rich |
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| SirAndy |
Nov 30 2005, 02:07 PM
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#103
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 41,644 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
it would look like this ... and if you're as lucky as i was, it'll last you at least a 1000 miles! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/icon8.gif) Andy Attached thumbnail(s) 
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| JeffBowlsby |
Nov 30 2005, 02:47 PM
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#104
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914 Wiring Harnesses Group: Members Posts: 8,510 Joined: 7-January 03 From: San Ramon CA Member No.: 104 Region Association: None
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It should be clarified what is to be included in the $5K engine rebuild, because whats been said so far leads me to believe there are differing opinions. Some of the discussions have been apples and others oranges. Lets be careful not to confuse the issues for the purposes of this thread.
Some may disagree and thats cool. Its has been suggested that we have to include a NEW intake system - FI, carbs, and then it snowballs into needing dyno tuning...to me thats not part of a typical engine rebuild, it is a separate issue. Engines need rebuilding because they wear out and fail mechanically, so the rebuild should be limited to mechanical refurbishment to original specs - machine work, head refurbishment, replacement of bearings, valves and guides and wear items as needed...in other words engine rebuild = long block. Its reasonable to expect a mechanical rebuild to include refinishing the tin and fastener replacement to do a responsible job because those components are related to the mechanical aspects of the engine typically worn too. But a flywheel is not an engine rebuild item...its a clutch maintenance item just as a new alternator harness is not an engine rebuild item, its an electrical system maintenance item. The existing induction should just be a take off and bolt-on item so no dyno tuning is necessary, so all those line items are zeros. Oh so you want to upgrade? More cc's, stroked...higher compression? Is your existing induction worn out or more expensive to repair than to replace, then those are upgrades from the original, and may require replacement or tweaking of the induction...a separate issue from an engine rebuild so budget accordingly, but don't classify those costs as a stright rebuild, they are upgrades. I know I am one of the odd-men out here, because I am quite satisfied with the stock 1971 and D-jet. But I dont expect my 914 to perform like a race car, its supposed to be a fun, economical little daily driver to me is all and it serves that purpose very well. Its has been relatively inexpensive to operate and maintain, the D-jet works great and I have never had a problem with it, that was not a simple maintenance item, but the time will come and when it does, it will get replaced. I have no need for a high end race quality engine in my engine bay becasue it defeats the 'economical' aspect of the 914. If I wanted to spend that many Washingtons on a sports car the 914 would not be the car of choice... A stock mechanical rebuild for my stock setup, which is what I understood Petes initial question, should be straightforward and comfortably within $5K. I figure could save about 30% of that cost if I did the labor myself and just bought parts. The minute you start talking upgrades though it gets expensive quickly because so much of it is in uncharted territory and someone has to pay for the R+D. |
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| rhodyguy |
Nov 30 2005, 02:57 PM
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#105
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Chimp Sanctuary NW. Check it out. Group: Members Posts: 22,080 Joined: 2-March 03 From: Orion's Bell. The BELL! Member No.: 378 Region Association: Galt's Gulch |
please point out any abusive aspect of my reply. you can save your terse "if you don't like that...go somewhere else..." for someone who gives a shit. so it's a crime around here to ask questions?
please reread my issue with the ford dealership service department. if a service will take 8 or 10 hours, fine. the car was dropped off a 7, techs clock in at 8. i doubt if they are turning a wrench within 30 minutes. break time, crap time, lunch time, brief personal phone call time, etc. my presumption that it would actually take the time quoted was an exspensive lesson learned. it had been a long time since i had service work done at a dealership, and the last. there is incentive for techs to complete under book times. book times should be protection for the consumer, not free access to their checkbook. k |
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| horizontally-opposed |
Nov 30 2005, 03:13 PM
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#106
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 3,432 Joined: 12-May 04 From: San Francisco Member No.: 2,058 Region Association: None
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Book times... now HERE'S a whole 'nuther thread to it's own...
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif) I would think the overhead is built into the rate. However, time wasters on the telephone is a REAL issue for mechanics. A lot of them get a firewall (phone answerer that JUST makes appointments) for that very reason. One local Porsche dealer puts a lot of value on techs who can get the job done in less than the allotted time -- there's a bit of a competition among the techs for top-dog status in this regard. To do it, shortcuts are taken. And no, the customer doesn't reap any of the savings. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ar15.gif) Of course, one customer should not pay for another's tough job -- and I would be mad if I paid for 10 hours of labor when my car was only in for 6 or 7. Now, if the advisor was smart and said two techs were working on my car, I'd have nothing to argue... But there is another side: There are a LOT of shops and good mechanics that eat it on jobs that took them, say, 15 hours and they could only charge for 10 because the book time says 10 hours and the customer whines about paying the mechanic for what they should -- fixing THEIR problem. So this is ANOTHER issue. Let's put it in another thread. pete |
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| Mark Henry |
Nov 30 2005, 03:14 PM
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#107
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that's what I do! Group: Members Posts: 20,065 Joined: 27-December 02 From: Port Hope, Ontario Member No.: 26 Region Association: Canada |
Well said Jeff and Pete
The real question is how much is a good engine and your 914 worth to you. A few guys here have had major issues with engines they've bought, Andy and Rich have been burned. Dyno time would really only be needed for an unkown aftermaket FI set-up, with the SDS I could load my maps and get you close. Carbs I can also get you real close without it. But your right all these are extras driving up the costs. Unfortunetly book time doesn't work well with low run custom. I wish I had gravy just some of the time. My machinist wants money, my powdercoater wants money, my supplier wants money, my utility company wants money, Bell wants money, my banker wants money and in the end I'd like some money. The problem with a group buy is everyone expects and wants something different. I think it's too expensive of an item to make this fly. |
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| horizontally-opposed |
Nov 30 2005, 03:26 PM
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#108
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 3,432 Joined: 12-May 04 From: San Francisco Member No.: 2,058 Region Association: None
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Mark,
I think you're right -- too many people have too many expectations. But it seems like there is a market for a high-quality (but not highest quality) 2056 long-block in two forms: -One with a hotter cam for carbs -One with a cam compatible with D-jet. Gets shipped to customer X and customer X either puts it in or has mechanic put it in. Either no warranty or a minimal one (hard parts yes but no dropped valves or other failures that can be attributed to setup, etc). Customer or their mechanic is responsible for transferring their own (working) injection or carbs and making the thing run. As I plan for the future of my 914, this sounds like a good route. Or is it a pipe dream at $5,000 or so? |
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| Mark Henry |
Nov 30 2005, 03:35 PM
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#109
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that's what I do! Group: Members Posts: 20,065 Joined: 27-December 02 From: Port Hope, Ontario Member No.: 26 Region Association: Canada |
I think it could be done...will it be done is a whole different thing.
Like I said before if I "could" get 20 guys to sign up when I say "show me the money", 15+ will bail. At least that's what happened when I did the SDS group buy 4 years ago. Then we were only talking about $800 to $1400., not 5k. |
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| Flat VW |
Nov 30 2005, 03:41 PM
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#110
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Illegal Soapbox Derby Racecar Group: Members Posts: 1,692 Joined: 13-November 04 From: Phoenix, AZ Member No.: 3,105 |
In my John Travolta voice, from the film GET SHORTY: "Dead" John (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wavey.gif) Please Look Here I think that product's name is Kit Carlson, subtle difference.... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif) I think McMark runs one... |
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| Porsche Rescue |
Nov 30 2005, 05:26 PM
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#111
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Saving and Enjoying Old Porsches Group: Members Posts: 2,978 Joined: 31-December 02 From: Bend, Oregon Member No.: 64 Region Association: None |
There's got to be some warranty, even at a paltry $5k. I recently spoke with a P. car wrecking yard and they offer 90 day warranty on an engine removed from a wreck (they do compression and leak down before shipping). I haven't read the fine print or bought an engine from them, but I would think a type 4 builder could at least give 90 days for $5000.
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| brant |
Nov 30 2005, 05:37 PM
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#112
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914 Wizard Group: Members Posts: 11,625 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Colorado Member No.: 47 Region Association: Rocky Mountains 
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I know when I dyno'd my motor this summer, I was at the shop at 8:30am and out the door at 6:30pm that was carb jetting only.... no other changes. I worked side by side with the mechanic. those were not all minutes spent on the dyno, but I think the point is that if its going to take someone 10hours of their day to dyno.. then they will not bill for just the minutes of the runs. brant |
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| McMark |
Nov 30 2005, 05:57 PM
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#113
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914 Freak! Group: Retired Admin Posts: 20,179 Joined: 13-March 03 From: Grand Rapids, MI Member No.: 419 Region Association: None |
I run the Kit Carlson. Last I heard he was dealing with personal issues, but has every intention of getting back into the FI project. In fact, I'll send him an email and see how he's doing... |
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| rick 918-S |
Nov 30 2005, 07:38 PM
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#114
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Hey nice rack! -Celette Group: Members Posts: 20,462 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Now in Superior WI Member No.: 43 Region Association: Northstar Region
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Thanks Mark. I think that system would make a great option for a better than stock rebuild. It needs to be user friendly and around the cost of a set of carbs and it will be golden. Here's what we've discussed. Jeff made a very good point (as usual thanks Jeff) about simply freshing up a stock motor. Great info and very do-able. Pete is still asking about 120-150 HP for a fair price and continuing to challenge the club. Several people have laid testamony to their success with the DYI. But we're looking for the crate motor not the suzy home maker kit. I think we seem to all agree for a basic rebuild, very little needs to be done to the lower end to make it live again. I think we also agree once the lower end is fresh it should handle 120/150 hp without an issue. I've received some PM regarding parts that may or may not be available. I can't disclose anymore than that without permission from the sender. But Hi quality parts from a good and reputable source are starting to surface. Let's try this. All guy's that have built a type IV more than say 6 times post what you feel you could do a tear down, examine parts, prep and clean the motor for reassembly with a quality kit. This will be a kit available to a builder only. Everything needed to make a long block able to develop 120/150 hp will be there for the assembly. So no guess work for the builder and no liability for the mistakes from the end user as this will be less carbs or injection. no dyno time, no run in, just a great new short block ready for a guy to install and tune. Next we need to know what it's worth to do that work. No more, no less, no frills, no hassle, no surprises, and no options for the buyer. Just a good short block that will produce 120/150 hp with the correct tuning. Try that. Please don't stray from the challenge. |
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| Kargeek |
Nov 30 2005, 07:38 PM
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#115
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 555 Joined: 14-March 03 From: Orange, CA Member No.: 430 |
I've been reading this post and the other about Jake's pricing...has anyone considered or had experience with Fat Preformance?
Fat Preformance These guys have specilized in type IV's for many years and I believe have a good reputation. DH |
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| ChrisFoley |
Nov 30 2005, 09:14 PM
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#116
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I am Tangerine Racing Group: Members Posts: 7,926 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Bolton, CT Member No.: 209 Region Association: None
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A long block was more or less defined earlier in this thread to include the tin and induction, so I'll put forward this definition of a short block as a sealed engine with valve train properly set up, static timed distributor and installed clutch but no cooling tin or induction. Starting and ending with a short block, I can disassemble, clean, inspect and reassemble with new parts for about $2K. I can get some machine work done locally as necessary, like crank grinding/balancing and rod reconditioning. |
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| rick 918-S |
Nov 30 2005, 09:40 PM
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#117
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Hey nice rack! -Celette Group: Members Posts: 20,462 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Now in Superior WI Member No.: 43 Region Association: Northstar Region
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Yes, I agree with that. No tin, just the long block. That's what were looking for. Are you saying $2000.00 including some minor machine work? So that would be worse case? Barring any resizing.... Just polish, recon, etc. ?... |
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| ChrisFoley |
Nov 30 2005, 10:19 PM
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#118
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I am Tangerine Racing Group: Members Posts: 7,926 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Bolton, CT Member No.: 209 Region Association: None
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Any machine work would be additional. I just mentioned it so you would know I have access to it locally. |
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| jasons |
Dec 1 2005, 12:05 AM
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#119
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Jackstand Extraordinaire Group: Members Posts: 2,002 Joined: 19-August 04 From: Scottsdale, AZ Member No.: 2,573 Region Association: None |
I don't know why we don't hear more about FAT. They've probably built more competitive SCORE engines than anyone else. At least Type I's and IV's. They also build Toyotas. "I think" they build a Type IV thats in these, and its good enough for our Navy SEALS. (IMG:http://www.chenowth.com/img/mainwindow/dpv.jpg) |
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| McMark |
Dec 1 2005, 12:08 AM
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#120
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914 Freak! Group: Retired Admin Posts: 20,179 Joined: 13-March 03 From: Grand Rapids, MI Member No.: 419 Region Association: None |
I'd have to agree with Chris. $2k is a comfortable number. If I could get a nice 135 hp kit for $3k, a long block for $5k would be a snap.
My solution to induction would be that hopefully whoever ((IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)) could provide that kit could have one engine setup on the dyno and tuned with a FI setup. MegaSquirt would be a good choice. That way you could get a turn-key engine for $5500 using stock FI hardware and MS electronics. Of course it's not going to be built to the full potential of the Type IV engine, and the fuel map will be a little off for each engine. But it's seems like a solid solution for the budget minded 914 owner. |
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