The $5,000 Type IV?, What would it look like? Options

[lagunero]

QUOTE (Kargeek @ Nov 30 2005, 05:38 PM)

These guys have specilized in type IV's for many years and I believe have a good reputation. DH

ask Elliot (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

[TJB/914]

Hi Guys,

I am not trying to go off post, but here's some interesting information. Because of this engine cost review I finally went into my files and added up all the material costs and labor costs to complete my (anal) restoration approx. (10) years ago.

Base line: I started with a rust free Calif. 914 2.0 liter with 100K miles and did a (5) year restoration, every nut, bolt, rubber part, etc was replaced. It truly ended up a new 914. In addition I spent over (2000) of my personal manhours to assembly along with labor hours spent on outside services I could not perform.

Here is the breakdown:
$15,000 parts (10) years ago Based on 5% inflation = $25,000 today (maybe)
$6,000 Outside labor ditto = $10,000 today
(2,000) of my labor hrs. (free). figure today @ $50 hr.= $100,000 today

When you start to analyze figures it's shocking. I believe today's 914 parts prices would be much higher, because most are no longer available. The great thing about our 914's they can be fitted with newer motors or whatever is available to the owner. I guess that's what we love about our 914's.

Now back to the programing. How to build a 914 motor for $5K or below. Sorry Pete.

Tom
BTW
Makes sense when you purchase to buy the best or lowest milage one available.

[Mark Henry]

What I was prepared to offer I think was substantially better that what is being discussed now. Complete machining with no up charges, unless your heads were totally munched.

The more I think about this the more I think it’s a bad idea for me.
I'm not mad or pissy...I just think it would/will end up giant clusterfuck. Besides I got plenty on my plate as it is.

If you need quality engine work at a reasonable price PM me, other than that I’m not interested in a group buy.

[blitZ]

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Dec 1 2005, 06:04 AM)

What I was prepared to offer I think was substantially better that what is being discussed now. Complete machining with no up charges, unless your heads were totally munched. The more I think about this the more I think it’s a bad idea for me. I'm not mad or pissy...I just think it would/will end up giant clusterfuck. Besides I got plenty on my plate as it is. If you need quality engine work at a reasonable price PM me, other than that I’m not interested in a group buy.

Probably a wise call. Group buys are great for less expensive, existing items. The logistics of organizing an engine buy and finding 5 or 10 folks interested in an engine at exactly the same time would be hellish.

[horizontally-opposed]

QUOTE (Thomas J Bliznik @ Dec 1 2005, 05:30 AM)

Now back to the programing. How to build a 914 motor for $5K or below. Sorry Pete. Tom

No apologies needed here -- the whole idea was opening up a discussion and the information in this thread has been helpful, and then some.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

I agree that a group buy is probably not the way to go here -- but I think getting to the point where we can start to see what kind of longblock could be had for *around* $5K if one doesn't go nuts on trick options has been VERY interesting. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)

From what I've read so far, it seems like the 2056 kit @ just over $3K + someone's labor @ around $2K is a good route to a modest power bump via high-quality parts.

After that, it's time to get back to driving! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif)

pete

[rick 918-S]

QUOTE (Thomas J Bliznik @ Dec 1 2005, 05:30 AM)

Hi Guys, I am not trying to go off post, but here's some interesting information. Because of this engine cost review I finally went into my files and added up all the material costs and labor costs to complete my (anal) restoration approx. (10) years ago. Base line: I started with a rust free Calif. 914 2.0 liter with 100K miles and did a (5) year restoration, every nut, bolt, rubber part, etc was replaced. It truly ended up a new 914. In addition I spent over (2000) of my personal manhours to assembly along with labor hours spent on outside services I could not perform. Here is the breakdown: $15,000 parts (10) years ago Based on 5% inflation = $25,000 today (maybe) $6,000 Outside labor ditto = $10,000 today (2,000) of my labor hrs. (free). figure today @ $50 hr.= $100,000 today When you start to analyze figures it's shocking. I believe today's 914 parts prices would be much higher, because most are no longer available. The great thing about our 914's they can be fitted with newer motors or whatever is available to the owner. I guess that's what we love about our 914's. Now back to the programing. How to build a 914 motor for $5K or below. Sorry Pete. Tom BTW Makes sense when you purchase to buy the best or lowest milage one available.

Tom, your car is really nice (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wub.gif)

[bd1308]

what would it look like?

it would look just like my almost freebie 1.7.....

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

b

[blitZ]

I did some searching to understand the KitCarson FI upgrade. It appears to work with the existing Djet intake for large bore engines. Is this correct?

[Mark Henry]

QUOTE (blitZ @ Dec 2 2005, 09:07 AM)

I did some searching to understand the KitCarson FI upgrade. It appears to work with the existing Djet intake for large bore engines. Is this correct?

Kit's system is dead...at least for a while. He may get back into it, but for now it's a no go.

SDS and the others also can work with the existing Djet intake but it's not just a bolt on. With a big bore it can work to a point.

[McMark]

I just talked to Dave, and Kit Carlson doesn't sound as dead as you and I both thought it was. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[Mark Henry]

QUOTE (McMark @ Dec 2 2005, 12:46 PM)

I just talked to Dave, and Kit Carlson doesn't sound as dead as you and I both thought it was. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

As much as I like the SDS that's good news (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif)

[Ray Warren]

QUOTE (McMark @ Dec 2 2005, 11:46 AM)

I just talked to Dave, and Kit Carlson doesn't sound as dead as you and I both thought it was. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

Please
Tell us more.

[McMark]

It's not my story to tell. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/mellow.gif)

All I'm willing to say is, it's not time to forget about Dave and KitCarlson.

[rick 918-S]

QUOTE (McMark @ Dec 2 2005, 10:27 AM)

It's not my story to tell. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/mellow.gif) All I'm willing to say is, it's not time to forget about Dave and KitCarlson.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/clap.gif) fingers crossed for good things in the future. Let us know when you can. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/aktion035.gif)

[chrisg]

so what happened.......... how does this story end? Am I going to be able to keep my 4 or should I keep looking for an early six?

[McMark]

You'll be able to keep your four. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) This thread did have an effect. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ph34r.gif)

[TJB/914]

chrisg,

I am glad you brought this back up. I was wondering myself. Maybe the answer is no answer for a $5,000 type-4 motor. Think about it from a business view. Why would someone want to supply the low end market with a slim margin of profit. One or two warranty issues and all profit is gone.

Looks like motor builder's in standard type-4 (including standard 6's) Porsche motors don't want this business. They make money in the high end stuff. Why take risk with low profit margins. Makes sense to me.

Maybe we should look at it another way. Encourage vendors to sell a complete kit for the do it yourself crowd. I beleive someone could make a good profit by putting together a book/manual with detailed procedures for the home builder. Make it idiot proof with a parts list and pictures. I think that would be a good seller and good for the vendor selling the parts kit. I know the 911 crowd have a book by Wayne @ Pelican & Bruce Anderson. We need one for the 914er's.

Who in our crowd could do a book/manual??? Any suggestions???

Answer: If you want a $5K motor you have to do it yourself.

Tom
BTW
I called my motor builder and he didn't return my call. I was told he went to work for a large corporation to feed his family.

[anthony]

QUOTE (Thomas J Bliznik @ Dec 4 2005, 08:47 PM)

Maybe we should look at it another way. Encourage vendors to sell a complete kit for the do it yourself crowd. I beleive someone could make a good profit by putting together a book/manual with detailed procedures for the home builder. Make it idiot proof with a parts list and pictures. I think that would be a good seller and good for the vendor selling the parts kit. I know the 911 crowd have a book by Wayne @ Pelican & Bruce Anderson. We need one for the 914er's. Who in our crowd could do a book/manual??? Any suggestions???

Have you ever heard of Jake Raby?

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/store/h...ome.php?cat=308

He sells complete kits for our motors. $5K actually buys you a 2270 that puts out around 150hp. A 2056 kit costs $3K. If you can't put it together yourself, find a competent type IV mechanic who will assemble it for you. I can't imagine that it would cost more than $1000 more.

BTW, Jake also sells a Type IV engine build DVD.

[kart54]

I agree with Chris Foley's estimates.
Just helped a friend tonight put his motor back in. 2.0.
New rings, new bearings, valve job, magnuflux everything, no cracks, checked and resized where necessary, all new gaskets, oil pump, and hoses. He pulled it, I helped him put it back in. Saw the receipt from the local bug shop. Total coat $1,835.00. 30,000 mile warranty.
Second time he has done this, got 165,000 miles out of the first one with regular oil changes and maintaince and nothing more.
Here in SoCal there are some great shops building motors for off road racing at a price much more reasonable than almost anything else I've seen posted. Our motors are still popular among the guys building racers for offroad because they are so reasonable. Entirely different mentality than what I've seen on this site so far. There is very little reason to get into a 10 0r 15,000 dollar engine for these cars unless it's a six.
Just my .02 cents worth.
Randy

[TJB/914]

Anthony & Randy.

I know about Jake, just didn't want to limit parts from one vendor. My main point was to get someone interested in publishing a motor manual to rebuild type-4 motor's. It could sell @ $49.00 dollars (or about) and help the novice who dosn't have confidience. It could be a good money maker for someone.

We need to develop a Type-4 mouth piece like Bruce Anderson for the 914 crowd. Like Sir Andy or Brad, or Mueller, or Craig, or Mark, or Chris, or ???? We need a 914 expert as our poster boy. Someone to take over Dr. 914's job. Notice he is always mentioned in most magazines. Somebody please step up.

Tom