The $5,000 Type IV?, What would it look like? Options

[jd74914]

Thats what I'm wondering, cause thats what I'm going to be doing on christmas/winter break (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif)

[Bleyseng]

considering that a 911 has a dry sump oil system and has what 10 gal of oil, no wonder they last long.

type 4 have 4 qts of oil, a oil filter and if its changed regularly every 6k the bottom end will last nearly 200k. The heads thou usually are toast around 100k (guide wear out).
911 motors have Alsul or Nikasil cylinders which really help cooling and last 200k. Type 4's atleast 914's have decent quality pistons and cylinders that can last 150 to 200k, as I have seen it.

So for around $5-6k you can get a nicely rebuild 110-120hp 2056 that will last if you start with one thats not been abused.
includes
rebuild 2.0l heads
new P&c's
machine work
bearings
cam & lifters
misc
labor (yours) free!

Can you rebuild (not refresh) a 911 for that? No.

I rebuilt mine in 99 for $3k and had to refresh the top end due to a ring problem after 10k of miles, for another $2k including a new cam and lifters plus pistons. I drive the piss outta it and still have the crappie Djet.

[bd1308]

QUOTE (jkeyzer @ Nov 29 2005, 08:53 PM)

Has anyone on the forum had a stock motor rebuilt STOCK within the past 2-3 years? Who did the work? How much did it cost? Does it still run? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

if your not racing or want "ludricious speed" (spaceballs quote)

why build anythign other than stock?


b

[MattR]

I remember when I had one of those nice little excel spreadsheets with all my reciepts and purchases and planned purchases. Wow, those were the days...

Now I open up wellsfargo.com and check to see how much money is left.

[Aaron Cox]

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 29 2005, 07:55 PM)

QUOTE (jkeyzer @ Nov 29 2005, 08:53 PM) Has anyone on the forum had a stock motor rebuilt STOCK within the past 2-3 years? Who did the work? How much did it cost? Does it still run?   (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) if your not racing or want "ludricious speed" (spaceballs quote) why build anythign other than stock? b

more fun.... can never have enough.

[Jake Raby]

Remember that the labor guide calls for 22 hours to rebuild a stock TIV engine... That does not include and balance or machine work other than what the Bentley dictates, which isn't much at all... The stock specs for pistons gives 5 grams of variance as an acceptable variance and thats 10 times more than should be allowed...(as an example)

Most shops these days charge a minimum of 55 bucks an hour and thats here in the backwoods- Metropolitan areas can be upwards of 85 bucks/hour and some Porsche shops 100 per hour.... So do just that math on the labor of a STOCK engine with not a single update and see what you get.. Also realize that these manuals have not been updated since 1981 as far as their time tables are concerned, so all the extra wear over the 30 year period is not covered and they are not including any time to paint/powdercoat sheetmetal, or even wash the extra crud off thats accumulated after 30 years.....

With that said- I'm done.. This post was about a 5K buck TIV and I sure as hell can't sell you one of those- so why did my name even get dragged into it if my product cost TWICE that much??

You guys can hate me all you want, think I'm expensive as hell if you wish and I really don't give a damn... This bullshit has wasted too much of my time lately and I'm done with it! I posted my standardized engine prices for a 2270 and 2316 with all the specifics and if you want one great- get in line.. If you don't I'll sell you the parts to do it yourself.... If you wanna lay the blade to it and create a Rice/Kraut hybrid then do so.

Forget that I exist for a while- Hell maybe Stromberg will come back in hnere and start posting- He'll sell you a damn engine for 5K proudly!

I have an engine to build- Bye.

[mightyohm]

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 29 2005, 06:55 PM)

if your not racing or want "ludricious speed" (spaceballs quote) why build anythign other than stock? b

Hey Britt, if you don't have anything to add....

I am looking for a data point that I think we are missing.

[wilchek]

Jake where are those prices, I can't find them. Thank You for the info.

[bd1308]

QUOTE (jkeyzer @ Nov 29 2005, 09:01 PM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 29 2005, 06:55 PM) if your not racing or want "ludricious speed" (spaceballs quote) why build anythign other than stock? b Hey Britt, if you don't have anything to add.... I am looking for a data point that I think we are missing.

what data point are we missing?

i'm done, sorry if i am getting in your way or anything.....

[MoveQik]

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Nov 29 2005, 06:58 PM)

You guys can hate me all you want, think I'm expensive as hell if you wish and I really don't give a damn... This bullshit has wasted too much of my time lately and I'm done with it! I posted my standardized engine prices for a 2270 and 2316 with all the specifics and if you want one great- get in line.. If you don't I'll sell you the parts to do it yourself.... If you wanna lay the blade to it and create a Rice/Kraut hybrid then do so. Forget that I exist for a while- Hell maybe Stromberg will come back in hnere and start posting- He'll sell you a damn engine for 5K proudly!

With that, I am sure the line will start forming outside your shop any minute....

[rick 918-S]

Britt, That why I posed the question. If we agree the lower end can be left alone (check the balance, recon and balance rods, etc.) Maybe (a useful) oiling system mod. Then by spending the money in the upper end HP and torque numbers should be good.

Based on my limited type IV experience I would say The lower end can handle lots more HP then you could produce by adding upper end mods.

I agree that the cams can be a source of worry.

Has anyone ever come to a conclusion about the use of any of the aftermarket FI units? What ever happened to Kit Carson?

You would think in this day and age a programable FI would be a cinch... Or at least do-able at the cost of carbs.




(Torque = the true measure of a motors ability to move mass)

[horizontally-opposed]

Jake, your name was mentioned precisely because I did NOT WANT YOU DRAGGED into this. I read all of your posts in the "other" thread and thoght it best not to comment on them there -- or here.

I think ALL of your positions are well defended -- and noted. I also think your views, expertise, and feedback are both valued and respected here.

What I was looking for was views and thoughts from OTHERS in a separate thread. In that sense, I am almost disappointed you replied within this thread -- though I ALWAYS like reading what you have to say. I just wanted to hear the voices of others in a thread that is NOT going up against you or your company.

The title of the thread alone should make it clear it does not apply to Raby motors.

Period.

That said, the kit is a good way of going -- if somebody has the time and space and skill to build their own motor.

That also said, I do not think it's fair or reasonable to say spending $5,000 for a rebuilt engine in a $5,000-10,000 car is "cheaping out." We don't all have $10,000 to $20,000 in disposable income. And that's okay -- just like it's okay to spend it iffn' you got it. If I did, I'd be probably be buying a pretty trick Type IV motor. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chowtime.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chowtime.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chowtime.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chowtime.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chowtime.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chowtime.gif)

No, the thing I am trying to open the discussion to is what the REST OF US see as a reasonable value for roughly $5K. Top-end rebuild only, rebuilt 2056 that's ready to adopt your old D jet, etc.

What are the possibilities at $5K, a sum I suspect is far more realistic for many 914clubbers, a sum that might be justifiable to spouses, college funds, and from Christmas bonuses.

There are already some good replies and feedback here. I think the carbs and ign was a stretch too far.... so what can be done with D jet for $4-6K labor included?

What about this top-end theory? The 911 people all seem to have so much collected wisdom from so many sources that there is a default answer for almost every question -- whether or not it's absolutely true.

The same can't be said for Type IV motors -- and while I respect the views of the established expert, there are others I really respect here too, like JP Stein, Rick, Aaron (well... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) ), and more... There is a lot of COLLECTED wisdom here. If I screwed up this thread by how I started it, please, someone start another one.

And, tempting as a Subie may be, I'm not there yet.

Flame on -- but let's NOT make this a Jake vs. the world (or me) thread. It was started separately for that very reason. I do NOT question his pricing or policies. I just want to LEARN about the other options and evaluate them for myself.

I would think others could benefit from the same discussion.

pete (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ph34r.gif)

[jd74914]

Kinda unrelated, but important.

Everyone voicing opinions is pretty much going the totally new engine route. What is so wrong with taking a tired engine, disassembling it, seeing what, if anything it wrong, putting a new gasket set and new rings on (maybe valve guides) and slapping it together and running it?

I'm not really understanding how $5000 goes so fast in just a top end rebuild. For a 2056 or something mild there are no point to Nickies or stuff like that. What sucks up all of the money? Or is it just that everyone wants to go for strokers?

And lastly, I've read about people using Rabbit rods and Chevy pistons on strokers, does anyone know anything about the subject because I think building an engine with these parts would be rather interesting, as well as cheaper (and with a better supply of aftermarket stuff in a sense).

[horizontally-opposed]

Okay, re-read my original post and edited it -- can see how it did not accomplish my goal very well.

[d914]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif) Jake's stated goals are only 30-40 engines a year so I don't understand his agressive stance here. His motors are gold no discussion. they are taken to the "N" degree no disussion. But by jakes own admission he can't handle nor wants to handle the middle of the bell curve.... That said...

I think that the top end study sounds interesting. And what ever happened to Kit carson. Alot of us have carbs in good shape, adding the newer dizzies wouldn't be that expensive, but a newer tunable(sp) affordable injection system still sound sweet..

[Demick]

I rebuilt my motor to a 2056cc in my garage a little over a year ago. About $3500 in parts and machining. Nearly half of that went into the heads. That was just the engine itself - no carbs, no ignition. I built it with 100K mile longevity in mind. Time from pulling the engine to having a running car again: 6 weeks.

Demick

[Howard]

I LOVE my stock 2.0 FI. But I picked up a 2.7 CIS six at fire sale prices in case the type IV goes out. About same $$ to rebuild, and think it would make me happier longer.

With decent Boxsters going for under $15K, it's hard for me to justify the cost of a good type IV rebuild for a street car.

Incoming... Running for cover......

[TravisNeff]

5k I would think would be a stock rebuild, or a 2056 with a carb cam and carbs, with a good balance job and headwork. Probably 115hp? I dunno.

Jake I think you are a bit on the defensive here, and there should be nothing to defend on your part. So stop the tears.

[lapuwali]

Since the el cheapo engine builders will sell you a "pile of junk" Type IV for under $2K, and the retail prices of the parts involved add up to under $3K, seems to me there's a lot of room there for someone to start building decent $5000 2056 longblocks.

Jake clearly isn't going to do it, but I see no problem with that. There has to be a supplier of "the best" in any market. Most people can't afford the best, but they can afford to not buy junk. The gap between ImportMotors and Jake is awfully large. There seems to be no "mid-market" supplier here.

I've emailed Jake privately several times suggesting that he basically turn his shop into an R&D operation. It's clearly what he enjoys doing, and there's obviously enough money to be made in making ultra-quality 20 engines per year that he can finance this. He could make a good deal more money by licensing his "basic" engine designs (like the "standard" engines he's talked about) to some other shops that simply buy up lots of parts and assemble the engines. He's never responded, but I suspect he's simply not interested, and he has too much ego tied up in his work to farm anything out.

Up to the late 1980s, the import laws in Italy made it nearly impossible to economically import any parts from outside the EU (or even Italy). The Italian parts manufacturers made either cheap junk, or the very best stuff available. Nothing in between. So, you ended up with things like Ducatis with marvelous engines that had cheap switchgear that fell apart in 10 minutes, and shoddy fiberglass work that looked like a10 year old made it after he'd had his first beer. Or Bimotas that had tool-room quality everything, but cost 10 times as much as a Japanese bike. Sales were low. In the early 1990s, the import rules changed, and suddenly Ducati could afford to buy from Japan. The Japanese were and are wizards and producing a wide range of products from the top to the bottom of the cost and quality scales. Overnight, Ducatis sprouted Japanese carbs, suspension, and electrics. Quality zoomed up, but the prices didn't. Ducati sales went through the roof, because for the first time, Italian engineers could build to a cost without sacrificing quality completely. Bimota still exists, and for those who want and can afford top-quality, they can still get it.

[ChicagoChris]

Yes it can be done!

With all due regard to Jake and the “Speed is expensive. How fast do you want to spend?” crowd. I know it is possible to get a good, reliable, respectably powered engine for under $5000. I did it about three years ago. A good local machine shop and some basic skills can do it. The following is a bit over simplified but I can give you excruciating detail if you want it.
I had a 1.8 turned into a 2.0 in the car already. But I decided to build a 2.0. So here is the formula I used. Do your own work. I tore down the engine myself. I took pictures and notes as I went. Sent the heads and bottom end to my local (reputable) machine shop. I had them inspect and test (magnaflux) the crank and rods. I also had the case line bored. I got a slightly more aggressive cam from Elgin cams. I had the shop build the bottom end. I also had them inspect and machine the heads. (I can send a PM for exactly what I had machined) That included fixing a few seats. My total from the shop was less then $800. The cam was $150 I think. I took all the pieces home and did the top-end myself. Sorry Jake it isn’t brain surgery. I had a good book and a few lessons I learned on my first motor (the 1.8) all the parts and labor went just over $3000.
Don’t neglect the cooling. I went with the deep pan and a better oil pump. I removed the cooler and went with an external to improve the cooling to the #3 cylinder also. To coin a phrase; “She’s been ridden hard and put away wet.” I have had so much fun and not a lick of trouble. Keep the cam friendly with the EFI or carb choice and have at it.
As an aside I had it on a dyno making 130bhp.

Chris