The $5,000 Type IV?, What would it look like? Options

[horizontally-opposed]

So I can't (and won't) argue with Jake's policies or pricing. Hell, I helped publicize his acheivements and remain very impressed by them. So let's NOT DEBATE THEM here -- please take that to another thread.

In the meantime, though, I think $5,000 (carbs and ignition included?) seems a far more approachable number for a lot of people. I wouldn't expect to get anything but short-lived junk for $1,300 to $2,600 -- unless I was building it myself.

So what are the possibilities at $5,000 to maybe $6,000? What kind of power, what kind of longevity? Could 120 or 130 hp be so hard to get with decent longevity?

I ask it more as theory and as a business opportunity/service someone could provide the community with -- someone who is well-known as a good engine builder. The 2.0-liter (based on a 1.7) in my 1973 914 has not left the chassis since at least 1986 -- it ain't got much power, but it was obviously built right.

Rather than specific answers, I am hoping to open up a direction of travel for Type IV owners on a real-world budget and (hopefully) a resource to fit that niche.

Or am I alone?

(running for cover)

pete

[TROJANMAN]

QUOTE (brant @ Nov 29 2005, 10:44 PM)

I'm not sure that I would go along with the "top end only" unless I did some more research and spoke with some of my local mechanics (like Greg's) that I fully trust. brant

brant,
when i first took my car to the mechanic, he recommended a top end only for my car (as a result of my dropped valve seat). i think he also did a top end only on grant's car. he was not pushing me to the whole motor at the time (b/c of costs) and said that the bottom end of these engines was pretty tough. 2 years later ( (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif) ) i decided to have the whole thing done and i am glad i did. i think he is too. as it turns out, someone had split my case once before. but with only 85k miles on the car, he was pretty confident a top end job would hold up ok. it's been good for grant so far (see his dyno thread). And i know grant pushes his car A LOT harder than i do, he just doesn't spin as much. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chairfall.gif)

[Mark Henry]

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Nov 30 2005, 12:23 PM)

I agree with the group buy concept. But don't forget, Pete was asking if an engine could be built by a shop, not a DYI enthusist. I'm not sure Pete has the time to tear into his motor. So, Lots of good info here, let's continue the debate. Did anyone comment on an after market FI cost vs carbs? Did I miss that?

Everyone wants something different...prices start to go up.

If this was to start happening I bet that when it's time to pony up 75% of the "buyers" will bail.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

[lagunero]

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Nov 30 2005, 07:41 AM)

Doesn't matter how good a job you do, if you slap a FI or carb set up on that's out of wack it will smoke anybodys engine.

That is some of the best advice given to me before I ran the motor (thanks Clayton!) "use a set of known carbs for the break in". Even if I had rebuilt "my" carbs and set them to baseline, I had never comtemplated "something" going wrong with them.

[DNHunt]

Affordable fuel injection is also a numbers thing. If there was 15 identical engines, you make 15 identical MS installations. The first one is tuned with wide band dyno time and the others get the MAP burned and away you go. Limits would probably be stock 2.0l plenum runners, maybe aftermarket injectors (Borg Warner makes a replacement for early BMW's that is a better size), stock D-jet CHT, MAT sensor, reconditioned AAR to keep it simple. If all the people could agree, the Ford EDIS system is really a pretty easy adaptation for crankfire, especially at a rebuild (Parts are cheap and easy to source). Maybe Jeff could do new harnesses.

The key to making it cheap is a large number of identical engines so that each 1 doesn't need wideband O2 other tuning stuff and dyno time.

Dave

[Katmanken]

I guess part of the question is that a 5k motor WITH assembly labor or WITHOUT assembly labor?

Another part of the question is do you want a cheap and dirty fix or a bog reliable engine?

Another part of the question is HOW FAST DO YOU WANT TO GO? Let's face it, speed costs money, RELIABLE speed costs more money.

Another part of the question is how confident are you that all of your used parts are up to snuff? You can throw out all the parts and go new, you can repair and regrind some of the parts, or you can mix old and new. This will reduce costs BUT: Are bearings are the right size for the crank? Is the piston bore surface ok? Is it tapered? Is the bore worn? Does the piston slap? Are the new parts as good as the old parts (God, that EMPI VW stuff on the wall of the VW store looks like CRAP compared to what used to be available)? Are the blanks for the cam and lifters Chinese crap or Chinese quality? Are your valves ok or has the metal overheated and the shaft has a thin spot from stretching (ticking timebomb)? New reworked heads or old reworked heads? And, i that sucker ballanced? That's a lotta measurement and fixing.

So, what's your mix of choices of the above? It's your dime, your level of comfort, your power choice, and your skill level in engine rebuilding.

To me, buying a 5k Raby engine kit gets you a lotta problems solved, a lotta inspection, a lotta machining done, and a lotta piece of mind. My assembly skills were learned frm my hot VW days.

Did I mention mebbe a .5x up to 2x power increase? (Based on base engine size HP for 1.7, 1.8) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)

Caveat Emptor! There's a lotta junk out there...

Ken

[d914]

not to write jakes business plan, or our rebuild plans , but like the big name motorcycle guys, Do they make the big money on bikes or the parts.

Jesse and crew can only make so many bikes, they can have a ton of "designed parts" made and sold.

The solution may be in the "parts" bin. Havent looked, but is there a near stock parts package available that buts us closer??? or do we ask for one??

[rhodyguy]

for starters, no flame job, the labor guides used for estimating a automotive proceedure is a load of crap. for instance, the heater core crapped out on one of my cars. dealer informed me that the "book" said 10 hrs. ok. dropped the car off in the am and recieved a call the repair was finished around 2pm the same day. when the settle up came due, the $800 labor bill stopped me in my tracks. i dropped the car off at 7am and it's done 7 hours later. the service manager could only reply repeatedly "that's what the book allows". "so i pay for one of your mechanics to have lunch?". if i'm going to pay for actual labor, which is fair, keeping the clock running while the mechanic goes and takes a crap, has a coffee break (just because the car is sitting in a service bay), what ever, is outright theivery.

on topic. i could live with a bump to 115hp which assuredly is a nice improvement over the less than, i am sure, the 95hp my engine produced on it's best day. stepping up to a big performance t4 is just fine if you have enough change. if you are prepared to spend the toll for an exhaust system to acheive the perfomance numbers, you are going to be one cold driver. in most circumstances the aux oil cooler looks like another expense/hassle i'd rather not have to bother with.

driving south on 101 with a few other 914s, at what is a pretty fast clip, does not require 160hp. you can move at speeds that will surely get you silver bracelets, and have you thinking i need to take my foot out of it a bit.

k

[Porsche Rescue]

Not direct to Pete's question, but to amplify Dave's point, another factor in the lack of "mid-level" options is the basic nature of our car and its owners. It has always been the "poor man's Porsche". As such most of us got in with economy as a major factor. Therefore most of us are DIY'ers, no market for pros. Not sure that has changed entirely, but 914's are appreciating over the last few years and it appears we will have to pay more to play.

[Bleyseng]

Wow, only $3110 buys a complete 2056 kit at the Type4store.com (Jakes not SS (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/stromberg.gif) )


See details 2056 Porsche 914 Engine Kit-40050

If you have a serious interest in this kit, please email us and we will be happy to reply with an attachment listing all of the components contained in this kit. Thank you.
40050

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our price: $3,110.08

now all you have to do is clean/machine the case, powdercoat the tin, and the labor.
Lets see
22hrsx $75=$1650

so thats $4750
cleaning/machining case $100
powdercoating $150

So whats left out at the total of $5050?

gaskets, hoses, etc....


Damn, I don't think I take 22hrs to rebuild a motor. My problem is that I can only spend maybe 4hrs straight anytime I am at the shop/garage. I spend alot of time just rechecking what I did the last time I was there cuz I can't remember exactly what I did two weeks ago. Check lists help but.....

[rick 918-S]

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Nov 30 2005, 09:27 AM)

Wow, only $3110 buys a complete 2056 kit at the Type4store.com (Jakes not SS (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/stromberg.gif) ) See details 2056 Porsche 914 Engine Kit-40050 If you have a serious interest in this kit, please email us and we will be happy to reply with an attachment listing all of the components contained in this kit. Thank you. 40050 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our price: $3,110.08 now all you have to do is clean/machine the case, powdercoat the tin, and the labor. Lets see 22hrsx $75=$1650 so thats $4750 cleaning/machining case $100 powdercoating $150 So whats left out at the total of $5050? gaskets, hoses, etc.... Damn, I don't think I take 22hrs to rebuild a motor. My problem is that I can only spend maybe 4hrs straight anytime I am at the shop/garage. I spend alot of time just rechecking what I did the last time I was there cuz I can't remember exactly what I did two weeks ago. Check lists help but.....

Now that's what I'm talking about! Good job! Now, of that kit, is there anything that can be slimmed down to make it 914 owner friendly and allow a little more room for the builder to make a buck assembling the motor? I need to check that site. I don't have time to look. I'm back to work today... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ph34r.gif)

[ppickerell]

?????

[Mark Henry]

Jake and I are starting to talk about this, but Jake has no interest in a group buy and if it was done through me he would not talk to anyone but me. Period.

I could build engines off of Jakes kits or at least key parts and keep cost down.

But let me be blunt and to the point

1/ there would be only a few options, I would break in with carbs...Period.

2/ Unless you buy my carbs at the time of the buy, if you blow it up too bad. The FI would be nice but to many hands in the pie...I don't know shit about MS...so from me it's SDS or webers or nothing.

3/ FI how do I tune it? dyno time? you just added almost $1000 (plus the FI) to the build.

5/ I must be making some coin or screw it, get someone else, I'm not a charity.

6/ I’m not expecting this to happen…If enough guys PM me I’ll look into it…But I’m not going to waste a whole lot of time on it (or even post it) till then.

[McMark]

I think stock rebuilds in the $5k range are extremely do-able. You can't expect a $5k engine to be on par with the engine's Jake puts out. But in terms of just getting a motor that will have stock power (2.0) and last awhile, I think it's reasonable. I know I've talked with people about filling that niche. I built my 2056 for about $2k in parts (heads were already done). And that's fully balanced and rebuilt everything from a machine shop I trust worlds more than any other I've seen.

[rhodyguy]

mark h, so $1k for tuning alone:o ? what happens if things go smoothly and it takes 2 hours? pure gravy for you? is that usd?

mcmark, your about $2k is sorta unrealistic. a $100 swing is a 5% increase in cost. sourcing done heads (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif) , good cores and the rest of the serviceable items that you had on hand, would spin up the costs in a hurry.

k

[Mark Henry]

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Nov 30 2005, 02:29 PM)

mark h, so $1k for tuning alone:o ? what happens if things go smoothly and it takes 2 hours? pure gravy for you? is that usd? mcmark, your about $2k is sorta unrealistic. a $100 swing is a 5% increase in cost. sourcing done heads (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif) , good cores and the rest of the serviceable items that you had on hand, would spin up the costs in a hurry. k

Two hours? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif) I couldn't even get it on the dyno in that time (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/av-943.gif)

That's Canadian so say $850.

It takes just a bit longer to put one on an engine dyno, than a rolling road.
Or do you expect me to put each one in my car (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

[rhodyguy]

why would the actual dyno install time be substancially longer than an owner putting one into a car? i'm not talking about a relaxed, have a cup of coffee, a smoke, whatever, work pace. hard at it sweat time. presuming you have a dyno and some sort of lift- 4 nuts, a cluster of wires (most in place on the dyno side, plug them in), fuel delivery...am i missing something? what is the acutal time (real minutes) required to set up an engine in the dyno?

k

[McMark]

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Nov 30 2005, 10:29 AM)

mark h, so $1k for tuning alone:o ? what happens if things go smoothly and it takes 2 hours? pure gravy for you? is that usd? mcmark, your about $2k is sorta unrealistic. a $100 swing is a 5% increase in cost. sourcing done heads (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif) , good cores and the rest of the serviceable items that you had on hand, would spin up the costs in a hurry. k

HUH? I was saying I spent $2k in parts. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif) I have the reciepts to prove it. My point is that a $5k engine is possible.

[rhodyguy]

i wasn't doubting that you spent $2k.

[TJB/914]

Hi Guys,

Been following this post and here's my opinion. If I were doing my motor today it would be a Jake motor or use a Jake kite & put together myself. I assume it would cost me somewhere in the $5K to $6K area with about 150 hp. using carbs.

The first thing is decide how you intend to drive your 914. Stock, slightly modified, F.I. Carbs, race engine, etc. Next, how much $$ do you have to spend. I believe you can build a budget motor, but you better be ready to do some work yourself and subcontract work you don's have the tools or knowledge to do. Example, head work, welding, machining, line boring, etc. I believe the biggest mistake most 914er's make is thinking they need a race motor in a street car. 914's give lots of pleasure with a 115-120 hp. motor. Beyond that it cost lots of money and you can't use the D-Jet Fuel Injection.

When I restored my car I decided I wanted the original F.I. 2.0 liter motor with a little more power. That was (10) years ago and Jake was not around. I didn't know anything about type-4 motors & decided all modifications would be internal.
Everyone told me the best combination to make 115-120 hp staying with D-Jet F.I. is listed in the attachment (see pic). I believe this combo is still current. The only thing I would do different today is another cam. My cam combo is a little touchy at idle. I am happy with my motor and highly reccommend staying with 115-120 hp and F.I. My total build cost was $2,467.26 ten years ago. Based on inflation of 5% today's price should be about $4,500 What's wrong here???

Forgot to say to get your budget motor built look for a small shop with VW experience. If you can't find one, call Jake.

Tom

[horizontally-opposed]

For better or worse, I think there is some great discussion going on.

I like a couple of routes I see so far (for those who don't want to or can't build the motor themselves): Buy a 2056 kit, then go either carbs or stock f.i. -- getting a nice but not huge bump in power while still keeping heater boxes...

So what's redline like in such a combo, 5600 rpm, 6000 rpm?

I agree the stock f.i. even if it runs right, is past its projected life span. So what's involved in cleaning it up? New wires, hoses, etc? Sound and long-term simplicity of carbs is appealing, maintenance and fuel mileage less so.

Thoughts?