AN ALTERNATIVE TO NIKASIL COATED CYLINDERS, We Need Competitive Priced Products Options

[J P Stein]

Thanks for another infomertial, fellas..... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif)

[Jake Raby]

Thanks to the original poster for the opportunity........

[J P Stein]

Jake you are incorrigible (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

[Jake Raby]

Is that another way to say that I'm an asshole????? If it is, then Hell yeah!

LOL

[TimT]

its ok the thread turned into an infomercial..

Alternatives are needed

Mahle has the market, Kolben-Schmidt has always been replaced by Mahle.

It nice that there is an alternative to just Mahle..

[DNHunt]

Ok I finally have enough time to reply to this.

As some of you know I've been trying to get an engine put together with parts I got through Jake. The most expensive part of the package was some 96 mm Nickies and JE pistons. I wish it all would have gone together the first time and been as simple as I dreamed of but, things have not worked out that way. The failures can be attributed to problems with the oil control rings supplied with the pistons from JE. In both cases they failed in under a thousand miles and the car started smoking like a 2 cycle. These failures seem to be limited to my engine alone. These failures allow me to comment from the perpective of a product that hasn't lived up to my expectations and because of that I have gotten a unique opportunity to view the business practices and character of both Charles at LN and Jake.

At this point if it wasn't for their dedication to customer satisfaction I would be stuck with a very expensive boat anchor. Since this failure is limited to my engine which I assembled they certainly could have said that I screwed it up. Instead, they have bent over backwards to try and help me. Jake has offered to assemble my kit for free and dyno it and if I wasn't so stubborn I'd have taken him up on it. And Charles has shipped my stuff all over the country to experts to look for the causes. On top of that, he has offered to replace my stuff with new if the problems continue. I'm sure both of these guys have nightmares about me.

Currently, I'm trying a different oil control ring with higher tension. The engine is quite tight and I'm worried about it. But, Charles said "Fire it up I got your backside covered".

I still believe in their product. But, the source of that belief is the people behind the product. Absolutely the best customer support. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/clap.gif)

Dave

[Brett W]

Glad to hear there are still some business owners out there that care about their customers.

[andys]

Rings used for nik-a-sil cylinders are different than those for cast iron cylinders; I forget the metallurgy right off. This is mature technology, so the solution ought to be available. Also could be nothing more than a defective set of oil rings; it can happen.

Andys

[Jake Raby]

I dynoed an engine yesterday (all day) that had the same pistons, rings, cylinders and vclearances as Dave's new set up.. I took base line numbers and then beat the shit out of it... I did hot and cold compression and leakdown checks as well as measuring rotational drag at various stages of the sessions. The results were positive and after 10 hours of run time there was no oil consumption noted. I feel quite positive that the newest arrangement Dave has is the final key to this mystery that has only effected him. I have built dozens of Nickies engines and have never experienced these oddities, except in one test engine that we purposely ran total seal rings in just to see if they would work- no dice.

A customer like dave is a godsend.. He WANTED to get to the bottom of this as much as Charles and I needed him to. Even after I offered to build the bitch for free and dyno it to ensure the issues were 100% solved he still persisted to be our guinea pig.

Dave's case is a classic example of what can happen if Nikisil technology is not utilized the *right* way and proves that issues can result even when something is developed and tested and used over and over again. That should be a prime example of the necessity of testing a product like this and certainly what is destined to happen if its not.

[Crazyhippy]

My other " hobby" is High performance outboard boats. ALL high end outboards are nyc'd. otherwise they wear out in 15-20 hours vs 120+ hours. These motors turn 10K+ rpms in short bursts, and will run for an hour straight @ 7500.

Nycasiling a 2.5L v-6 block costs just over a grand, plus shipping, as there is only one quality place in the US. And the will not do what Jake and Charles have done here if you dont use they're exact recomended parts. Even if you do, it's 50-50 if they'll help (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif)

People have tried lots of different cylinder liners trying to get more longevity, or lower costs, and as far as i know, NOTHING holds up as well. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif)

BJH

[cnavarro]

I also have to add that Dave is the best sport and most understanding customer I have had to date, and when it comes to the old saying "if you fail, try, try again," Dave sure has tried harder and longer than most would hang in there. I consulted with CMW Motorsports on the oddity of the oil consumption and blowby and they pointed towards a design flaw in the oil ring that had never been an issue in our extensive use of the same style and family ring in bore sizes from 90.5mm to 102mm. JE had blamed the problem on ring gap and customer error, but Bob felt differently and it took two trips to JE and countless arguements for JE to cough up an alternative ring that "didn't exist" to fix this problem, one that they had had previously and Bob had brought to their attention. Without his relationship to the founder of JE, we may have never really found a solution other than going back to KB pistons and rings we have found that work flawlessly on the KB's.

Not to add more fuel to the fire, but for those following Jake's 3 Liter, he's just taken it apart to make a cam swap and for general inspection. Here's the down low: http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/r_d_3_OH_p2.htm. The custom JEs we designed and fitted to our Nickies in the 105.07mm bore size was set up with .001" total piston to cylinder clearance. As you can see, the JE forging and our cylinders are a good match for both performance and longevity. For those familiar with this ongoing discussion, the minimum clearance this same JE would need in a Mahle cylinder is in excess of .0025" (that's the minimum!), and even then, they don't do so well, hence the debate of JE's longevity in Mahles on Pelican and other forums. With Nickies, it's just not a problem.

[Jake Raby]

Those cylinders, pistons and rings are flawless even after countless flogging and TWENTY SEVEN dyno runs... If those were cast iron cylinders they'd be worn out after 10K miles- these have 13K on them....

I was so damn impressed I have called over some of my Nascar buddies to check the wear out! They stopped by earlier and said the cylinders don't even look like the engine ever fired up!

This is the same way the 100K mile set looked...

[Brett W]

Charles have you talked with the guys at Perfect Bore. They do all of the coatings for the Corvette C5 and C6R factory LS1-LS7 engines as well as the Hendrix Cup motors. They can probably shed some light on the ring issue.

[cnavarro]

Perfect Bore has had their own problems with their Porsche cylinders, just ask CMW, among others. Being that Perfect Bore is now owned by Dover (who owns JE) and now closely works with JE on pistons and rings for their cylinders, you would have thought that JE themselves would have caught their own problem and provided a solution as they also sell their own ringsets for nikasil. The problem we had with the oil control rings wasn't a nikasil compatibility issue, just a piss poor design that can and has caused people problems for years by their own admission. I'm glad I have the working relationship with CMW that I do and enjoy working with them, so no big deal. :-)

[Brett W]

Have you ever dealt with Wiseco. They seem to have a better product than JE. Wiesco has their own piston facility. From what I understand JE does not. Wiesco has always done lots of two stroke stuff so they probably have a good understanding of what Nikasil cylinders and coatings require.

For some reason when JE went bigtime corporate they lost a lot of what made them good. CP is also making a good product from what I understand. Haven't dealt with them but I have heard several people that are happy with them as well.

[cnavarro]

I have had customers send me wisecos and I wasn't very impressed. Other than this one problem with JE, they have taken care of me very well, and do make a nice fully custom piston for the price. On top of that, they work so well with Nickies that I don't want to change. CP does make a bitchin piston, as does omega, and others, but the price puts them out of the typical customer's budget. You are totally right though about the change in how JE functioned after the takeover/buyout- I had a rep that I loved working with and he left to work for CP :-(

[Jake Raby]

There is no way a Wiseco piston could run in my 3 Liter cylinder at .001! I have measured the expansion between the two in the oven and noted the expansion and contraction of each and the results were near unbelievable... This was especially true at lower piston temperatures, and thats the most important time in the compatibility of the piston/cylinder. A piston that expands a ton when its warming up can quickly give the same result as it would if ran in a cast iron cylinder with less than adequate clearance.

[Brett W]

Wiesco makes two different types of pistons one uses 2618 and the other uses 4032. There is a different expansion rate for each piston. The 2618 will not expand as much, from what I understand the Nickies are made from the 2618. In a water cooled application the 4032 will require at least .004 of clearences in a 84mm bore. Where as the 2618 will require about .0021-.0028 depending on skirt and piston design.

I have had the opposite experience JEs garbage and Wisecos super nice. If they are working with you stick with them. I know they have come up with a couple of solutions to things like Microwelding the top ring to the ring lands.

OOOOHHHH Omega, they and Cosworth Give me wood, but you are right most customers would freak if they saw a piston bill for 10K$

[cnavarro]

Brett, you have the forgings confused :-) The 2618 is the non-silicon alloy forging. (don't feel bad, I had to pull out the tech sheets for each to double check myself) The 2618 is best suited to the proprietary 6-series alloy designed by Alcoa for our Nickies. JE's recommended clearance for an aluminum aircooled cylinder with the 2618 forging is .0025-.0035" for n/a applications. In Jake's 3 liter, those Nickies just needed .001" total p/c clearance at the same bore size. We have set up Nickies for 4032 forgings, cast mahle pistons, KBs, etc, but every piston reacts differently and we've had to find what clearances work best for each.

[Jake Raby]

Even at .00075 skirt clearance the expansion is still spot on.... The ability to run these extremely tight clearances is the biggest power adder the Nickies have brought to us so far- keeping the chamber free of oil deposits makes power and even keeps the spark plugs alive longer when running oils that have a lot of Zinc..