Fuel System Upgrade Discussion, FI or Carbs Options

[McMark]

Sensors are pretty much stock, except for the throttle position switch. But that's not too big an issue. It's been done before.

[rick 918-S]

He's a question or two..

Let's say Stock 1.7 with stock FI, porsche stock cam, compression, and exhaust motor is in good and usablecondition

vs the same motor with tunable MS or SDS.

is there any HP gain?

What about fuel economy?

We know it's a bad idea to bolt on carbs with the FI cam profile and we know fuel milage will also drop.

any real HP gain with carbs on that same stock motor or does it just sound like it...?

[JeffBowlsby]

I am late to this thread...been too busy with work...

SDS and MS are good systems, but there is another PEFI option, from Emerald Performance, which looks really promising. The manufacturer is based in the UK and the system has been on the market for over 10 years, so its a proven commercial system, not 'experimental' like the MS. Their US dstributor is in Florida.

http://emeraldperformance.com

The M3DK ECU is a full-on engine mangement system including 3D mapping, ignition control, datalogging and more features and is competitive with SDS.

They also have a new ECU which I am told is almost done with beta testing and is due out anytime now, called the K2 which is fuel injection only (it should be a direct D-Jet swap), no ignition control. This ECU with a prewired (but not configured to the engine) generic wiring harness is the size of a cigarette box and will be about $800. It will fit into a stock D-Jet ECU case easily for those that want current technology with a stock look.

Mack, the owner of Emerald Performance in Florida, seems to be exceptionally knowledgeable about FI on aircooled engines (including turbo applications) and is a very nice guy as well, based on several phone conversations I have had with him. He tells me has the maps already for a 2L 914 setup.

Check out the exceptional free downloads of demo software from their website, as well as the links to the UK manufacturer and then try to tell us with a straight face, that you are not impressed... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif)

[JeffBowlsby]

Here is a photo of the M3DK ECU:

[rick 918-S]

Nice Jeff! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/clap.gif)

[TimT]

QUOTE

Megasquirt & SDS are the 2 choices for the 914.

not at all. Along with Emerald, there are many other EFI manufacturer out there. From high end MoTec, and EFI systems, to sds and Megasquirt on the other end of the financial spectrum.

We are an authorized Haltech distributor. we sell probably 3-4 systems a month. And we have installed many on air cooled engines. One of the engine is a 3.8l 4 cam Supercup engine we nicknamed 7&7, since we got over 700 hp and 700 lb/ft tq out of it.

Megasquirt has a great informative site, even if it is a bit overwhelming.

For fuel only you could use a Haltech F10, or any one of the systems, and only use the fuel portion of the ECU, you will not get timing control, and youll leave some power untapped since you ownt be able to optimise the ignition curve

I think if your going to go through the effort to install EFI go all out fuel and ignition.

[KenH]

Thanks for adding "Emerald Performance" and "Haltech" to the list.

What is the price range of a Haltech system. Higher lower than the others mentioned??

I did not include Motronic and Electromtive, etc due to high cost.

Ken

[TimT]

A Haltech E6X is about $1280 with sensors ( MAP, TPS, CLT,IAT) and a wiring harness and relays.


so its alot more than Megasquirt, and A bit more than SDS. It also has alot more features than the aforementioned systems.

[Mueller]

Fuel only ECU + Aftermarket Distributor = Cost of Fuel & Ignition ECU

QUOTE

He's a question or two.. Let's say Stock 1.7 with stock FI, porsche stock cam, compression, and exhaust motor is in good and usablecondition vs the same motor with tunable MS or SDS. is there any HP gain? What about fuel economy? We know it's a bad idea to bolt on carbs with the FI cam profile and we know fuel milage will also drop. any real HP gain with carbs on that same stock motor or does it just sound like it...?

It really depends on the operating condition of the stock parts when removed, an aftermarket FI should be able to hold the values tighter and be more accurate and be able to compensate more readily for changing conditions ..Brad told me that on my 1st MS install on a stock 1.8, it was one of the best starting and idleing /4s he has heard.

The aftermarket FI is both a blessing and a curse due to being able to tune it. Yes, the laptop can be a PITA, but you should only have to use it to fine tune the ECU and never have to plug it in again unless you do some major changes to the engine.

Without a dyno or at least a good a/f meter, installing an aftermarket FI is going to be a gamble.

The MS is for those that want to save money AND learn yes, you'll learn and gain knowledge with the other systems out there, but with the MS you need to do a little more homework.

My Link that I have is not bad, the problems I had with it was believe it or not was due to the MS being too easy to setup.

It's a tough decision, I'd have no problem doing another MS* right now or buying the SDS or Haltech if my budget allowed it.

*if I don't put a diesel in the 242, good chance I'll remove the Link from the 914 and install another MS into the 914.....

Ken, feel free to call me if you don't mind listening to me ramble about this stuff on the phone.

510.484.8700 cell

mike

[lapuwali]

The primary reason I mentioned MS and SDS specifically is that there are multiple installations of both on the 914 by people on this board. There are plenty of other good systems, but being able to get good support from people here who've already been there is, I think, invaluable. Both systems also have very helpful and informative websites on their own, and I think that kind of behavior needs to be supported. I don't know of any other systems with nearly so extensive a library of data and advice online as these two.

There's also Perfect Power, which airsix has installed on his 1.7 (though I believe the exact ECU he used is no longer available), and Link, which Mueller is actually using now on his 914.

As far as I know, no one here has used the Emerald system on a 914, yet.

[McMark]

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Dec 17 2005, 05:33 AM)

He's a question or two.. Let's say Stock 1.7 with stock FI, porsche stock cam, compression, and exhaust motor is in good and usablecondition vs the same motor with tunable MS or SDS. is there any HP gain? What about fuel economy? We know it's a bad idea to bolt on carbs with the FI cam profile and we know fuel milage will also drop. any real HP gain with carbs on that same stock motor or does it just sound like it...?

There will be small benefits but not worth the expense. With aftermarket EFI you get commonly replaceable parts, which to me is worth the cost of upgrading, but YMMV.

The real advantage of aftermarket EFI come from a cam swap. But that's a rebuild. It's not the stock FI that sucks so much as the cam. A cam swap can free up close to 25 hp. That says something about how bad the stock cam is.

[Mueller]

yipppeeeee.....

I went to hang out with a bunch of Volvo guys today in Elk Grove...glad I went, learned some good info for my 242 motor swap....but the best part was that I was talking fuel injection with one of the main guys there and he just walked over to his storage bench and handed me 2 complete early Megasquirts that to his knowledge work.

I started to hand them back to him and he said keep them, no charge, he had no use for them since he was going to use something else.....not bad, 2 free megasquirts....one I offered to Ken if he wants to go that route and other one will be going onto my spare 1.8 for R&D to work out a wiring harness kit for those that want to go that route as well as other MS related items to be used with the /4 motors...of course I still have to test these to make sure they work, but no signs of spilled coffee on them (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/coffee.gif)

[fiid]

When you say early do you mean v1 boards or v2.2 boards? Not that it really matters.

Mueller: I got the input stage of our circuit going today BTW, but couldn't find a couple of chips I need to finish it off. It's going pretty well tho!

[Tom Perso]

I had a ball building my MS 2.2 board. It's still sitting downstairs on the stimulator since I don't have a motor to put it on yet... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

But, in that timeframe, I've already flashed it to the new firmware with the larger VE table, self-learning curves with a WB-02, and all of the other fun features.

I like MS since it's really DIY, you learn SO much about the FI system, and it's cheaper and probably works just as well.

You can control the MS with an older palm pilot if you'd like (one of the serial ones) and that's what I plan to do after it's tuned with the laptop (thanks Mike!).

Later,
Tom

[Mueller]

QUOTE (fiid @ Dec 18 2005, 12:28 AM)

When you say early do you mean v1 boards or v2.2 boards? Not that it really matters. Mueller: I got the input stage of our circuit going today BTW, but couldn't find a couple of chips I need to finish it off. It's going pretty well tho!

Hey Fiid,

One board is a V1.01, the other one is a V2.2

the V1 had the MAP sensor break off due to I'm guessing incorrect strain relief methods, I also noticed they did not glue down the crystals to help prevent damage from vibration. Other than those problems the boards look good with no burnt components or traces.

[crash914]

ha ha.... I just ordered my MS-II chip to upgrade my v2.2.

This will let the motor self tune Ve table on the fly....Kool!