Turbo Tie Rod Washers, Are they critical? Options

[vesnyder]

I just installed the turbo tie rods and did not install the washer that came with the kit that goes between the tie rod and the steering rack - are these needed?

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif)

That's what I was afraid of!! They were a bitch to tighten and they will be impossible when I install the washer.

[bondo]

Yes! They keep you fromn overextending (and destroying) the steering rack.

[TimT]

You need the washers. Without then you will never be able to set the toe

[Marlow]

It seems some cars need them and others don't. I could not use them on my 74 because it caused a large toe-in condition. The washers made the tie rod's too long compared to the ones that came off. I asked the same question and was told that the washers are spacers, not rack stops. I don't think they have anything to do with protecting the rack - I've gone lock-to-lock plenty of times without the washers and my steering rack seems just fine.

[FourBlades]

Maybe someone knows the answer to this, or has the right parts to verify it.

I put Lemforder turbo tie rods on my 914, which has early 911 struts, the kind
with 3" caliper bolt spacing. Using the thick washers that come with the tie rods
I am not able to eliminate about 1" of toe in. Perhaps the steering arms are
different in geometry on the kind of struts I am using from 914 struts.

Maybe the later 911 struts with 3.5" caliper bolt spacing are the same as 914 or
maybe they are different as well.

Anyway, I think I need to ditch the spacers or suffer a serious case of
bowleggedness.

It would be nice to derfinitely figure this out and publish it for future 914ers.

Thanks to Eric Shea for helping me figure this out.

John

[type47]

I thought the washers had something to do with "bump steer" (which I think is the steering "wobble" you get from irregularities in the raod surface).

[McMark]

The washers aren't for bump steer. You need to raise/lower the steering rack in relation to the chassis in order to affect bump steer.

The washers are dual purpose, they act as 'stoppers' which will hit the steering rack and they also add overall length to the tie rod to allow for better toe-in adjustment.

I ran my first car for a long time without washers and didn't have a problem. But after learning more about them and what they're really doing, I wouldn't run a set without them now.

Vance, a special wrench really helps, and I have one that I could mail out to you to borrow. Just PM me your address and phone number.

[Eric_Shea]

I believe all spindle arms are not created equal. Some seem to need these and some (as per Joel and John's cars) don't.

I don't think they are meant to be bump stops for the rack. If anything they would prevent wider tires from rubbing, similar to the Elephant washers. A spherical joint screwed into the rack, with or without these will stop when the rack stops. Mark, correct me here if I'm wrong. I just did mine and I'm spacing on it to be honest with you.

It would be nice to know which struts need them and which don't. John has 911T struts with the 3" mounting ears. His don't seem to require them. I can't imagine the racks being different. They seem to be the same car to car.

[McMark]

Part #4 is on the stock steering rack and serves the same purpose. (pictured in gold, photo credit Wes V)

It's listed as a steering angle limiter in the PET. It probably isn't to protect the rack, but rather to protect the body from getting rubbed by the wheels. Either way, I think it's smarter to have a washer to stop the rack, rather than potentially having internal steering rack parts colliding.

Anyone have disassembled steering rack pictures?

[McMark]

Yup, the steering rack is a bar with teeth machined in a portion of it. Without a stop of some sort your pinion teeth could impact an unmachined portion of the rack and potentially cause damage. You can see the rack at the top of this picture. (photo credit Tim Hancock, Pelican Parts Thread)

[SirAndy]

Yup, the steering rack is a bar with teeth machined in a portion of it. Without a stop of some sort your pinion teeth could impact an unmachined portion of the rack and potentially cause damage. You can see the rack at the top of this picture.

Yupp, and if those teeth are rounded (either on the bar or the gear) you'll end up turning the wheel while the car happily goes straight.

You can even feel it in your steering wheel when the teeth are slipping. Happened to me a long time ago in a '74 super beetle.

It's rather scary ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) Andy

[Eric_Shea]

Part #4 is on the stock steering rack and serves the same purpose.

This is where I'm a tad confused. With a TTR install, that part stays on the rack does it not? This way you have a place for the rubber boot and those funky metal spring bands to attach to on that end (they attach to the rack on the other end). That's what I meant by them not being bump stops... the stops should already be there.

You would simply screw in the TTR spherical end where the #5 piece is going... prior to that you would decide "with or without" washers. No?

Now I'm all confused and I'm going to go cry... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[McMark]

Nope, the TTR comes with a rubber block on the rod shaft which acts as a seat for the boot. If you reuse that part you won't be able to install the boot correctly.

[Eric_Shea]

Ahhhh... that's the part I forgot.

[jaxdream]

I installed a set of the Lenforders ( spelling ) and the boots that came with them was smaller on the outboard ( wheel ) end and the boot disc was on the tierod itself. Installed the spacers on the rack end , have a set of 911 Bilstiens on the arms ,balljoints and body ( temporarily ) , have a slight toe in with this setup without any adjusting. I don't believe I will have problems later whe I switch out my franken struts ( 73 914 strut body , 89 911 spindles mounted , gussed and welded to the 914 strut body ), but will see in future.
Put the spacers on as they will limit the rack travel and keep from burring up the steering shaft gear.
If tierods are too long , trim them down and rethread the inside if you can to shorten them up.
My $.02

Jack / Jaxdream

[craig downs]

I was told that the spacers are for if your using the 914 struts and if you have 911 struts you don't need them. When I installed mine I used large washers instead of the spacers for the rack stoppers.

[kconway]

I was told that the spacers are for if your using the 914 struts and if you have 911 struts you don't need them. When I installed mine I used large washers instead of the spacers for the rack stoppers.

So, are the spacers that come with the Lemforders too thick so you replaced them with washers of the same diameter, just thinner?

[PRS914-6]

I used 911 struts AND steering rack. The washers do act as a stop. First picture is a comparison of stock and turbo and the second is the turbo installed with a washer. I never measured to see if the 914 rack is a slightly different length than the 911 that might effect if the washers add too much length. I suspect the racks are the same length though.

[Eric_Shea]

At this point it would be nice to do a strut comparison. I suspect the various spindle arms are making a difference here.

I'm using the Koni struts on both cars with the thick washers. No toe issues.

John (who brought this thread back to the top) is using 911T struts and is having problems (like others) with the thickness of the spacers. He's running out of adjustment room for proper toe.

From what I'm seeing, it appears the 911T strut may benefit from a thin washer in place of the thicker ones.

Assumption only at this point. It could also be the length of the tie rods but... they should be fairly standard.

[PRS914-6]

I'm using the Koni's as well......no issues. Perhaps we need to do a parts search to see if the tie rods vary in 911 models