OT: The new "tuner" law, Anyone know any details on this? Cops.. Options

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (MikeP @ Feb 16 2006, 11:08 AM)

If you are that concerned, de-tune your motor, throw some catalytic converters on it and go to the refferee at your local DMV, they will certify that your SBC is in the configuration offered in a stock vehicle from 1973 and is now in another 1973 vehicle. The state doesn't care what vehicle your 1973 motor is pushing around as long as it meets the requirements from that year. They will put a nifty little sticker on the door jamb of your car and it will forever after be your get out of jail free card when a cop pulls you over. That said, I've been pulled over in my v8 car and had the cop shake his head look over the engine whistle and tell me to slow down a bit then send me on my way. Not an uncommon occurace for v8 owners I'm told. It really is all about the particular cop and your attitude.

Catalytic convertors are not required for 1973 MY cars. Even if smog tests were still required for a '73, a cat wouldn't be required.

Were Andrew to follow the exact letter of the law to bring his car into compliance, he'd have to do the following: if the V8 is from a '73, he'd have to fit all of the smog equipment orignally fitted to that engine in the donor car in 1973. Catalytic convertors would not be part of the package (these didn't appear in CA until 1975, and weren't required in the rest of the US until 1980). If the engine is older than 1973, he'd have to fit all of the '73 914 smog gear, including EFI, the charcoal canister, and all of the vent hoses. If the engine is newer than 73, he'd have to retrofit all of the equipment in use on that engine in cars with that engine in the model year of the engine. This may include catalytic convertors if the engine is a '75 or newer. Once this was done, a visit to a BAR referee station would test and certify the car as being a XX model year car for emissions purposes ('73 or newer, depending on the year of the chassis or engine, whichever is newer). From that point on, he'd be subject to emissions testing if the engine is a '76 or newer, as the car would now effectively be a the new model year as far as the DMV is concerned. The limits used would be based on the year of the engine.

Since the car IS exempt in CA, you're in more of a gray area. The EPA doesn't care, as the car is more than 25 years old. CA law is more iffy. You're not required to be TESTED under the exemption, but a strict reading of the law states that you're not really exempt from the requirements, just the enforcement. The engine swap rules technically still apply.

Most of the CVC regs that will get you pulled over, however, have nothing to do with the engine or emissions, but are instead concerned with things like how loud the muffler is, what color your lights are, etc. As long as he's using a sociable muffler, and correct 914 lenses (Euro lenses are iffy, but likely to be OK), and isn't lowered so much that no part of the car hangs below the lower lip of the wheel rims (except the tires, of course), then he's "street legal".

[kart54]

Andrew,
You asked a very specific question. Let me give you a specific response. I practice law but this is not to be construed as legal advice of any kind.

They cannot seize and crush your car for being modified. If you have modifications that are outside of the law (which does not appear to be the case from what you have written). They will give you a fix it ticket on a first stop.

They may stop you more often because of the modifications just to check you out. They cannot look under the hood or in your trunk without probable cause that a crime is being committed. They will usually say "It's OK if we look in your trunk and under the hood right?" You are free to say no although they may try and put additional pressure on you at that point.

A clear violation of the law on most BMW's, Merecedes and Porsche's that I have seen is window tint in front of the driver's seat (Driver and passenger side front windows on 4 door cars and SUV's). alot of people do it and know that they are asking to be stopped. They will remove it once given a fix-it ticket and then put it back on once the ticket is resolved. Another is excessively dark tinting. The police must be able to see inside your vehicle from any angle if you have windows. but alot of people do that too.

I also don't know of one street legal Harley. Exhaust louder than stock and handle bars raised above the driver's shoulders are illegal in California but there are plenty of them around including Jay Leno's and Arnold's. Again, fix-it ticket if stopped.

Mueller gave you the reasons they can seize and impound your vehicle (not crush). Don't street race, don't go to street races, don't have any illegal drugs inside your vehicle (although that is a gray area I won't go into here) don't pick up hookers and don't rob banks or get in gang fights. Your young, if you give them an excuse or pretext they will pull you over.

Crushing is actually very rarely done. Instead the vehicle, in certain situations, becomes police property and is usually sold at a police auction. (Until a couple of large lawsuits came along this was a common revenue raising tactic by many local police departments in California. They would encourage someone selling pot or something similar to step into the seller's vehicle to complete the transaction or to smoke a joint, generally at a party, and then bust them and seize the vehicle.). This fellout of favor after the aforemnetioned lawsuits and the realization by departments that big drug dealers had caught on and were leasing their vehicles at full value which had to be paid off prior to the department making anything.

The above is not to be construed as legal advice, simply a statement of current law. No attorney-client relationship has been created or is implied by these comments.

Randy,
Ventura, CA

[Aaron Cox]

while on legality and 914's

are 5 point harnesses legal? they are NOT DOT approved, but approved by a higher sanctioning body (forget the name)

[TROJANMAN]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Feb 16 2006, 10:58 AM)

Only 3 laws I know of that allow the police to sieze your vehicle: Being a "John" (picking up hooker) illegal street racing and "sideshows"

great, i guess i don't need to worry about the 20 kilo's in my trunk. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

[bondo]

QUOTE (TROJANMAN @ Feb 16 2006, 03:33 PM)

QUOTE (Mueller @ Feb 16 2006, 10:58 AM) Only 3 laws I know of that allow the police to sieze your vehicle: Being a "John" (picking up hooker) illegal street racing and "sideshows" great, i guess i don't need to worry about the 20 kilo's in my trunk. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

Keep it in the longs.. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[KELTY360]

Can't store it in the longs, that's where I keep my rust. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif)

Marc

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 16 2006, 02:10 PM)

while on legality and 914's are 5 point harnesses legal? they are NOT DOT approved, but approved by a higher sanctioning body (forget the name)

This is actually an interesting question. It's not actually defined in the CVC. It only says you have to have seatbelts that comply with the requirements set down by the department, without explicitly stating what those requirements are.

[spare time toys]

QUOTE (MikeP @ Feb 16 2006, 02:08 PM)

If you are that concerned, de-tune your motor, throw some catalytic converters on it and go to the refferee at your local DMV, they will certify that your SBC is in the configuration offered in a stock vehicle from 1973 and is now in another 1973 vehicle. The state doesn't care what vehicle your 1973 motor is pushing around as long as it meets the requirements from that year.

NO converters in 73 that crap started in 75 (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/mad.gif)

[eeyore]

A PCASDR thread on 5 pt harness legality

[lapuwali]

I know I'm in the minority, but I don't consider catalytic convertors to be "crap". Out of all of the emission controls tried over this years, this has by far been the most useful. Modern 3-way units provide excellent flow, and reduce emissions by an incredible amount. They've improved substantially over the old oxidizing units originally fitted to (say) the '75 914.

Clean air is a good thing, and there really has been a difference made by the controls required over the past 30 years, as anyone who's lived in the LA Basin over that time will tell you.

Of course, I say this, and I drive a '67 912 that reeks of gas from open float bowl vents...

[Dr Evil]

The CVC will only state so much, there are unique laws that are on the books in different municipalities. In El Cajon, CA you can have your car impounded and have to buy it back at market value for soliciting hookers. New law that was effected as I was leaving the area (no relation in topics (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif) )

This law will ultimately end as the drug one did as the po po are doing it kinda dirty.

[Crazyhippy]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Feb 16 2006, 11:36 AM)

*snip* If the engine is older than 1973, he'd have to fit all of the '73 914 smog gear, including EFI, the charcoal canister, and all of the vent hoses. If the engine is newer than 73, he'd have to retrofit all of the equipment in use on that engine in cars with that engine in the model year of the engine. This may include catalytic convertors if the engine is a '75 or newer. *snip*

This is 1/2 correct. Legally the motor has to be the same age or newer then the car. Cant do a super early SBC, has to be from newer than the car, and have all the smog equipment that came on the motor (smog pump, cats, EGR stuff, correct air cleaner setup, etc)

Reality is it is NEVER checked, even if you get pulled over, a street cop isn't going to know everything that came on the motor.

Dont sweat it, the cops dont want to deal w/ all the paperwork impounding a car entails, they'll write you for the easy stuff and move on.

BJH

[Andyrew]

My main fear is of a cop that will get pissed or jealous at me and write up many claims and do everything he possibly can against me...

even though I am a very nice guy, especially to short term relations (Im a manager a taco bell... I know how to deal with an attitude the nice way..)

Thanks everyone for their input. I just hope that I dont get "caught up in the moment" and accidently race a viper or something..

because if I raced anything else.. It wouldnt look like much of a race (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif) (happened once...)

Thanks again!

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Feb 16 2006, 07:14 PM)

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Feb 16 2006, 11:36 AM) *snip* If the engine is older than 1973, he'd have to fit all of the '73 914 smog gear, including EFI, the charcoal canister, and all of the vent hoses.  If the engine is newer than 73, he'd have to retrofit all of the equipment in use on that engine in cars with that engine in the model year of the engine.  This may include catalytic convertors if the engine is a '75 or newer.  *snip* This is 1/2 correct. Legally the motor has to be the same age or newer then the car. Cant do a super early SBC, has to be from newer than the car, and have all the smog equipment that came on the motor (smog pump, cats, EGR stuff, correct air cleaner setup, etc) Reality is it is NEVER checked, even if you get pulled over, a street cop isn't going to know everything that came on the motor. Dont sweat it, the cops dont want to deal w/ all the paperwork impounding a car entails, they'll write you for the easy stuff and move on. BJH

There was an article in a "ricer" mag about 3-4 years ago describing one guy swapping an older Honda engine into a newer Honda chassis. It had to conform to the smog regs for the newer chassis at the referee station. Perhaps this is against the letter of the law, but it's doable as a practical matter.

I'll have to look up the text, but I believe the law does state "whichever is newer, engine or chassis" determines the regs. Sometimes, it's nearly impossible to get an older engine to pass new regs simply due to the incompatibility of parts. This certainly wouldn't be true of an SBC, though. Hell, what really is the difference between a 1970 small block and a 1990 small block in terms of the basic bits, anyway? Probably not much...

[Twystd1]

I believe kart54 was spot on with accurate data.

NOW FOR A HIGHJACK:

By the way. In Wittier California, Buena Park California, Fontana California.

They can impound your car for illegal modifications only. (City codes)

They typically use it on ricers that are being idiots, or loud, or the cops just want them gone for X reason.

But don't think for a minute their aren't laws allowing states or municipality's to CRUSH your car for STREET RACING.

Here's some reading for ya.

They can’t take it and crush it huh….
Oh yes they can. They have and they do. Hang out in Long Beach at a LA Street Racers meet sometimes. It gets expensive around here.

LAPD Press release: Oct, 6th, 2004

In order to send a strong message to both the hard core street racer and our youth, the Los Angeles City Council enacted Los Angeles Municipal Code 41.70.2 (Nuisance Vehicles), to provide for the seizure and forfeiture of vehicles used in a motor vehicle speed contests and exhibition of speed. In short, the vehicles can be crushed if found to be a nuisance vehicle.
http://www.lapdonline.org/press_releases/2.../10/pr04499.htm

READ THIS:
In Los Angeles, for example, the police can confiscate street racers' cars and eventually crush them. "We wanted to make a strong statement that L.A. would not tolerate street racing," says Michelle Rodriguez, senior lead officer for the Sun Valley area, Los Angeles Police Department Foothill Division, who's been involved with combating the problem since 1996. "To racers, their cars are everything. If you crush them, that sends a powerful message."

READ THIS: http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20030713-10...02221-6427r.htm

READ THIS: http://zev.co.la.ca.us/scripts/apr05/LA%20...de%20racing.pdf
Look Close: In all cases where vehicles seized pursuant to this section are forfeited to the City, the vehicles shall be sold or destroyed.

How many links ya want?

And some city’s have even harder rules to comply with.

So potentially the following can happen. Based on the wording of Code 41.70.2
If you are charged with participating in a speed contest or a display of speed, you are being charged with a criminal offence, and you can go to jail.
That means the prosecutor must prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt... but the standard of proof for losing your car is much less: preponderance of the evidence. So even if you are found not guilty of racing or an exhibition of speed, you can still lose your car!

I grabbed this stuff of the net.. You guys make up your own mind.

It does happen. It is happening. That’s my 0.02

Twystd1

And Kart54 knows much more about this that I do from a legal perspective.
This is what i know from a street perspective.

[redshift]

Hey! I know! I'll move to Calousbassas, where you can't smoke outside, or drive a car with an air freshener! (modded, you know!)

California, GET A GRIP... your legislators are foolish, and they climb the chain, to become FEDERAL LEGISLATORS.

I am about ready to hand you over to Mexico. I am convinced it's the plan anyhow.


M

[Brett W]

I agree with Miles, what do you guys see as any good reason to live in CA. Move to a state where you have individual freedoms.

That said. They can't take your car and crush it if you are not racing. If they do get a lawyer and own the police department.

[lapuwali]

Like I said earlier, local ordinances certainly exist, but I doubt they're constitutional. Once they're properly challenged in court, they'll probably be overturned. A few lawsuits against the city would put a stop to this, but it would obviously take money to pursue this.

Also, this is still about street racing, not just driving a modified car, which was the original question.

As for the California bashing, the quoted Washington Times article talks about a similar law in Virginia. Have you checked the law books in your state?

[efeinsmith]

Oh the joys of California (and certain other states). When I moved from Texas to Georgia, I was in the middle of a kit car rebuild (Bradley GT-II) with a 4 cyl. Porsche engine. After completion, I registered it, but soon after, Ga. changed the law to require emission testing and the Bradley fell under the new law. When I sold it before moving, it had reached 25 yrs. old, so it was now exempt.

Retired to rural Alabama, which has NO inspections of vehicles (emission or otherwise), and to top that, if you build your own house outside of city limits, no building permits or inspections either.

I can understant that Ca. is auto mecca, but the gov't there is one huge pain in the butt. Personally, no thanks.

Eric

[Allan]

Hell, I'd love to get out of the state. Anybody in the Portland or Seattle area need a Safety Manager?