Type-I in teener?, Why not? Options

[echocanyons]

Doesn't the Karmann Ghia weigh about the same as a 914?

[Jake Raby]

nope

[bug man nrg]

turbo is a quick fix but you need a good bank book when you do this

[Rand]

T-1 exaust turns 90 degrees and goes horizontal T-4 turns 90 and goes vertical, so why would it flow better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

What does the exhaust direction have to do with head flow?

[So.Cal.914]

T-1 exaust turns 90 degrees and goes horizontal T-4 turns 90 and goes vertical, so why would it flow better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

What does the exhaust direction have to do with head flow?

Come on, OK if you can't get the gases out you can't get the gas in.

That's why people run headers.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Or are you being sarcastic?

[Rand]

I understand that.

But obviously I'm stupid when it comes to understanding why horizontal vs. vertical exhaust affects head flow.

[So.Cal.914]

I understand that.

But obviously I'm stupid when it comes to understanding why horizontal vs. vertical exhaust affects head flow.

Exactly.... Look at post # 8 and you will understand why I asked that Q..

That is the only differance that I have found. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

[Rand]

I thought the talk was about how the design of the head enabled a type4 to flow better than a type1 through the head itself, not putting the exhaust pipe in the equation.

I thought you were saying horizontal vs. vertical exhaust had something to do with head flow.

I guess I'm missing something, or I'm just stupid.

[So.Cal.914]

I understand how larger exhaust and less restriction allows easier exhaust flow.

I thought the talk was about how the design of the head enabled a type4 to flow better than a type1 through the head itself, not putting the exhaust pipe in the equation.

I thought you were saying horizontal vs. vertical exhaust had something to do with head flow.

I guess I'm missing something, or I'm just stupid.

No, I don't think you are stupid. But the two are tied together. It's like pouring water into a bucket, if the bucket only has a pin hole for the water to escape than it dosen't matter how much water you put in. Still only a little is going to escape

Let me try this, Throttle exaust, no matter how good your fuel injection is
if your pipe is restrictive your not going to get the power that you could
if it breaths as well as it is fed.

I hope I was more clear this time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

... T-1 exaust turns 90 degrees and goes horizontal T-4 turns 90

and goes vertical, so why would it flow better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I'm trying to follow your arguement but you're still not making any sense. I'd recommend you quit the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif) for awhile so you'll start making sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[bd1308]

Guys, the issue here is gravity.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

b

[So.Cal.914]

[Quote
Type 1 heads flow way better than type 4 because of the difference in the exhaust ports.....That is the main reason they can be bumped up to over 300 HP fairly easily.


The quote above was the reason I made the comment about the exhaust port. The port turns

90 degrees and on a type one it runs horizontal, on a type 4 it runs vertical.

That is the only difference I have found. My heads are ported and they flow

very well, as well as a type 1 head with the same work. I never said that the

port running horivontal or vertical would make a performance difference.

I am only saying that I am of the opinion that the type 4 head will flow as well if

not better than the type 1. Am I clear this time or would you like a diagram.

[Twystd1]

Just to add a little more question to this thread...

Several folks have stated that they think or know Type 1 heads out flow a Type 4 head...

Well.... Maybe.....

So let me throw this out you guys....

What BONE STOCK VW Type 1 head...
Out flows a BONE STOCK 2.0 914 head?
On either the intake or the exaust side... or both??????????

Just trying to get the facts here... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

I am interested in your answers...

Twystd1

[URY914]

Lets got back to your bucket of water...

On a Type-4 the gases flow into the top of the head (or bucket) and out of the bottom of the head (or bucket). On a type 1 the gas flow into the top and than turn 90 degree and exit out the side of the head (or bucket). Therefore it is "easier" for the gases to flow through the head.

[URY914]

Here is a shot of a T-1 buggy with the exhaust header on the back side of the head. If this was a t-4 it would be under the head.

[solex]

With regards to the exhaust discussion. Here are my 2 cents please bare in mind that some of this is my opinion.

Turbulence = Friction
Velocity = Flow

Turbulence is inversely proportional to Velocity

If you increase the turbulence you reduce the velocity and hence reduce the flow.

I believe the key here is that the flow out of the head must be coupled with the intake charge. Therefore increasing the flow ad infinitum is not necessarily good for performance/economy.

All sort of things can create turbulence a radical bend in an exhaust pipe or a big difference in exhaust diameters.

Following the discussion of gravity and the bucket analogy. I don't believe that where the actual exhaust port is located really matters, since we are talking about a gas which is compressible and gravity has little to no effect on the flow. The exhaust gas is lighter then air and will rise, following that logic putting the exhaust port higher in the chamber should increase the flow I have no evidence to this though.

Bottom line for me, work with someone who has experience and a flow bench, e.g. Gene Berg (Clyde Berg), Jake Raby (Len Hoffman)

[URY914]

In my bucket analogy I wasn't using gavity as the having an effect on the gass passing through the bucket. I was explaining that a 90 degree change in direction will "slow" or restrect the exiting gases from exiting the bucket verses a stright line.

"If you increase the turbulence you reduce the velocity and hence reduce the flow."

And gases having to exit at 90 drgrees from the intake valve will create turbulance.

We agree.

[Jake Raby]

WOW...

The fact is that the Type 1 with it's exhaust port location being on the side of the head is more difficult to cool because the port gets in the way of creating finned areas that encapsualte the exhaust port.

The Type 4 and the 911 have vertical exhaust discharge and have cooling fins that totally surround the hottest part of the head to help shed heat.

All that Type 1 HP does you no good because the engines heat soak and become worthless because they lack cooling surface area and a design to get the exhaustarea of the head cooled down.

The difference i the heads is a difference in the intended application for the engines-period.

I have personally experienced the Type 1 deficiencies when I did the test work for my Type 1 DTM cooling system. The Type 1 took 8 months to get a positive result from, the Type 4 took 1 week to make perfect!

[Dave_Darling]

On a Type-4 the gases flow into the top of the head (or bucket) and out of the bottom of the head (or bucket). On a type 1 the gas flow into the top and than turn 90 degree and exit out the side of the head (or bucket).

Here, let's extend your analogy a little bit. On a type 4, stuff flows in from the top of the head. Then it makes a 90-degree turn to get to the exhaust valve, then another 90-degree turn to head downward. The Type I head omits that second turn.

Now which "should" flow more?

...Just trying to show some of the flaws in the analogy...

I think a T-I in a 914 is a big step backwards, personally.

--DD

[rhodyguy]

matters not addressed. how do you figure to hold up the front of the engine? how would you make the engine tin work? heat exchangers?... forget it. the wheel is known to be round, there is no need to reinvent it. what does it cost to squeeze a whooping 95hp out of a t-1?

k