MYTHBUSTERS: Did Gugelot really design the 914? Options

[neo914-6]

BUT, i am *very* interested in the factual history, and it seems Michael von Klodt has done his homework.

if you're really interested in the "styling progression" you *should* pay attention to the actual facts at hand and not just pick pieces that you would have liked to have played a role ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) Andy

"seems" isn't conclusive to me or any court (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) . I found the Gugelot photo on a PCA site and only have internet material because I've found zero 914 information in the automotive industrial design or styling tradebooks that I'm aware of. Almost all of the articles refer to Gugelot and the VW & Porsche joint venture. Dam me and all the authors who didn't go to Germany to do their homework. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

IMHO Porsche gets the credit for completing the 914 design but it was an obvious departure from the Porsche design status que. I believe (as many have written) that an industrial design firm (Gugelot) had a hand because the 914 design is product oriented, not highly stylized and because the conceptual shape is not classic teardrop...

[SirAndy]

I believe (as many have written) that an industrial design firm (Gugelot) had a hand because the 914 design is product oriented, not highly stylized and because the conceptual shape is not classic teardrop...

well, you really should get DGVWPB and learn to read german. one of the next pages i'm going to translate actually outlines the whole design process and has personal quotes from Heinrich Klie, among others, as to how, when and where the design of the 914 came about.

you are correct in your assumption that the design was a departure from the classic porsche "teardrop" and as outlined in the book, that was very much on purpose.

you are, however, mistaken when it comes to your assumption of the involvement of the Gugelot design firm. in the book, Klie, Porsche and others cleary state that Gugelot had abosulutely nothing to do with the design and that his firm was most certainly never commissioned by Porsche to do any design work.

the truth is out there ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/alien_2.gif) Andy

[fitsbain]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) Allan's little quote reminded me of this German Coast Guard on Google Videos. LOL "Vat ah yoou sinking z-bout?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

Sorry for the Hi-Jack...back to your normal thread broadcast. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/hijacked.gif)

Got to share this, no offence to our German Brothers (Half of me is with you).

"ACHTUNG!

Das machine ist nicht fur gerfingerpoken und der mittengraben!
Ist easy schnappin der shpringerwerk!
Ist nicht fur gerwerken by das dummkopfen.
Das rubbernecken sightseeren geekendope shotz keepen das hands in das pocketz.
Relaxen und watchin das blinkinlights."


I have this posted on the cube I work in doing Technical Suport for Aerotech. A company that does motion controls and servo systems.

[SirAndy]

"ACHTUNG!

Das machine ist nicht fur gerfingerpoken und der mittengraben!
Ist easy schnappin der shpringerwerk!
Ist nicht fur gerwerken by das dummkopfen.
Das rubbernecken sightseeren geekendope shotz keepen das hands in das pocketz.
Relaxen und watchin das blinkinlights."

translation? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

neither my german nor english is good enough to make any sense of this ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) Andy

[fitsbain]

Just read in english. Forget about German. Sound out the words and say them out loud.

[SirAndy]

Just read in english. Forget about German. Sound out the words and say them out loud.

still does not make any sense ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) Andy

[Matt Meyer]

Try one more time. Read it out loud and don't think as you are reading it.

Knowing any german but nicht, der, das, dem and den is hinderance to understanding.

For some reason I think it would help picturing Mel Brooks with a monocal saying it.

Maybe too much english slang?

[horizontally-opposed]

dude! I know a porsche guy named david coleman. I got some weber parts from him. All I will say is that he is sitting on a VERY LARGE parts stash. hundreds of engines, and some VERY VERY VERY Rare cars...

Two Davids here.

There's the David Coleman you're talking about in VA, who is very into Northeast Porsche circles. He sold one of Bruce Jennings' old Speedster race cars a couple of years ago.

Then there is the David Colman who, used to write for Excellence and is a big fan of 914s, with a 914-6 "GT". I think the German is referring to this David Colman, and believe me it is scary how much the German press refers to Excellence in its historical research. Even at the archive in Zuffenhausen, they remark at how there is nothing similar to the magazine in Germany.

Ever play the game "telephone?" Now try it starting in German and translated to English about half way around the circle.

The truth IS out there...and I too want to find it.

pete

[markb]

Das machine ist nicht fur gerfingerpoken und der mittengraben!
Ist easy schnappin der shpringerwerk!
Ist nicht fur gerwerken by das dummkopfen.
Das rubbernecken sightseeren geekendope shotz keepen das hands in das pocketz.
Relaxen und watchin das blinkinlights."



Veeeery loose translation:

This machine is not for finger pokin' and mitt grabbin'
It's easy snapping the springworks
It's not for working on by the dummkoffs
The rubberneckin' sightseein' geeks should keep their hands in their pockets
Relax and watch the blinkin' lights

[Rrrockhound]

So anyway, just to keep this thread on topic, if it's true that Gugelot had nothing to do with the design, that blows up the whole storyline that the 914's design was outsourced to a 3rd party to keep it from showing too much influence from one company (Porsche) or the other (VW).

Damn internet misinformation. In the old days, info was harder to get, but somewhat more trustworthy once you got it.

I've always thought the 914 showed more Porsche influence than anyone would acknowledge. The running lights in the leading edge of the front fenders are just a variation on the 356/911 theme, only using turn signals instead of headlights.

[highways]

Grate, now ist maykeen purfect nugen sensse. Dank yu.

[eg914]

Rrrockhound, I agree. Even my daughter thinks the family resemblence is there. She says all the older Porsches have the rounded front fenders with lights in them.

[IronHillRestorations]

Nearly ten years ago, as VP of the Porsche 914 Club, I set out to get the final word on this. Although Gugelot has been mentioned ad nauseum, there isn't much more than ink, and a clay model of a car with vaugely similiar features, to substantiate the Gugelot theory.

After discussing the matter in detail with Alex Buller (RIP, the founder and Pres. of the Porsche 914 Club), Alex suggested I contact Jorg Austen, who worked in the Porsche design department, and on the 914 development (clutch and rear suspension). Mr. Austen wrote me a letter (which I still have) and told me the Gugelot story was wrong, and the 914 was a internal design project.

I had some discussions on Rennlist with Charlie Davis regarding this, and he also quoted Ludvigsen (sp), whom Davis regards as an unquestionable athority. The final word (from this camp of the argument) being the Porsche design group would claim responsibility regardless of who was truly responsible. I do not agree with this position. Why would someone like Mr. Austen lie to me?

Of course discrediting Porsche with the design also distances the 914 from "true Porsche purism", which I'd guess would be a position for Ludvigsen to take. I dunno.

I do find it interesting though, that seeing restoration photos of a 904 shows some striking similarites in the rear half of the chassis.

[william harris]

Sloopy research = copy what the most recent "authority" said in his book. Often the original source just accepted hearsay as true and so the myth begins. Excellent thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap56.gif)

[DEC]

from DGVWPB ...

--------------------------
"the first sketches were done in 1964 at the porsche design-studios. five different sketches were chosen for the final design choice in early 1966. all 5 sketches were turned into 1:5 size clay models. the (unanimous) vote went to a model designed by Heinrich Klie, then head of the porsche design-studios, who also designed the the first porsche formular 1 racecar and the carrera 6."
--------------------------

attached are 3 pics of klie's clay model that won the contest ... (click on pic for full size version)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-179-1146286389.jpg)

Hello Andy
The Klie clay model is existing today. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)
A 914-friend became the model as a gift from Mr. Klie as he bought his very early
1.7.
This clay model is a unique 914 how the Klie real 914 with many different parts
as the series.

Wilco (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

[SirAndy]

The Klie clay model is existing today. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

WOW! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

i didn't think it would have survived all these years ...

hey wilco, any chance to see some more recent pictures of the model?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) Andy

[DEC]

Hey Andy,
I will contact Norbert tomorrow and will ask him
for making any actual photos.

Wilco (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

[JeffBowlsby]

I LOVE this place!

[Eric_Shea]

If anything, the Gugelot story got Ferdinand Alexander Porsche to admit that there is such a thing as a 914 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[DEC]

Hi Andy,
here is a first pic from the Klie 914.

Remember it is a german car.

I hope to become further pics from the car and the clay model.

It can a few days take. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

Stay tuned

Wilco (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)