Ignition key not turning enough to engage the starter Options

[moggy]

I recently had a problem where the car would not start. I isolated it to the starter switch which as when I shorted the relevant wires out at the starter switch the starter would engage and the car swould start. I've now replaced that electrical part at the end of the starter switch mechanism but it has made no difference. If I take the electrical bit out and start it with a screwdriver it starts no problem. It appears that the key does not turn enough to engage the starter. Has anyone else come across this? I can't see anyway to take the tumbler and whole mechanism apart, so am I screwed??? do I have to buy the whole switch/lock/tumbler mechanism or am I barking up the worng tree (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[ptravnic]

Look up the tech article on the pelicanparts.com site. Pics and description of the replacement. I've been through a couple of the plastic pieces. It's a common failure and fairly easy fix.

-pt

[moggy]

Look up the tech article on the pelicanparts.com site. Pics and description of the replacement. I've been through a couple of the plastic pieces. It's a common failure and fairly easy fix.

-pt

Thanks for your response but as I said in my post I've already replaced the plastic part and still no go (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Dr Evil]

Perhaps it is not the plastic part. Did you check the part of the keyed mechanism that engauges the switch parts in the plastic part? It may not be in good repair.

[Matt Meyer]

What year of 914?

I had the same problem on my 75. Starting Problem. It was not the plastic/electric switch.

I replaced the whole ignition switch assembly, because I could not figure out how to get the assembly apart. By assembly I mean, lock tumbler, and part that goes around the steering column. It seems to have worked.

The tumbler part of the assembly is NLA I think so. I bought mine here from someone who was parting out their car.

I am pretty sure Dave Darling has written how to remove the lock tumbler from an earlier year. It looked pretty easy IIRC. Follow the tech article to remove the assembly then turn the key and pull it out.

[moggy]

Perhaps it is not the plastic part. Did you check the part of the keyed mechanism that engauges the switch parts in the plastic part? It may not be in good repair.

It is NOT the plastic part! I have replaced it with a new one. As far as I can make out the part of the keyed mechanism that engages the switch is in good order.

[GWN7]

It could also be the wires that attach to the switch. I had to take the holder apart and clean the wire clip ends and reinstole them into the holder before mine would work.

Same thing, switch attached to wires, turn with screw driver it worked. Put it all together, no work. Clean wires, reassembly, works.

While its apart, lube the lock assembley with dry graphite and you should good for another 30 yrs.

[ptravnic]

On my dad's car we went through a couple plastic pieces b/c the other pieces around it (not sure what they're called) - basically replaced the whole housing (tumbler wasn't much of a stopper - fairly easy to use your old one). You can prob get the whole setup from anyone of the guys parting their cars out. Prob can be had for about $25 or so...

It does get frustrating but that is what separates us 914 owners from the Boxter owners (That and about $30K)...

[moggy]

I can see the problem (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The part of the lock mechanism that engages the electrical switch is twisted ever so slightly. Which means that it doesn't turn the electrical switch as far as it should. I've got an idea for a bodge which should sort it for the medium term. Basically file the bits that stop the mechanism turning at the limits, so that it has at least a few more degrees at full lock. If that doesn't work I'll get a secondhand lock/tumbler mechanism (but parts ain't easy to come by over here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) )

Thanks for your help guys.

[Dr Evil]

Did I not say as much in my post? --> "...Did you check the part of the keyed mechanism that engauges the switch parts in the plastic part? "

No need to yell at me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[moggy]

Did I not say as much in my post? --> "...Did you check the part of the keyed mechanism that engauges the switch parts in the plastic part? "

No need to yell at me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Sorry Dr Evil but when I state in my first post I have replaced the plastic part,

then the next post says 'perhaps you should replace the plastic part'

then I again state 'I have replaced the plastic part'

then you come along and state 'maybe it is not the plastic part' it's a case of NO SHIT EINSTEIN (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap56.gif)

I took on board you're comment of looking at the state of the mechanism but at first glance there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with it... it took a good 10min stare at it to notice the slight twist (and I mean slight). If you said 'check out the mechanism for any twist' I would have been on it straight away, but I was looking for something obvious e.g. cracking, breaks etc. But thanks for you help anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Doug Leggins]

I recently had a problem where the car would not start. I isolated it to the starter switch which as when I shorted the relevant wires out at the starter switch the starter would engage and the car swould start. I've now replaced that electrical part at the end of the starter switch mechanism but it has made no difference. If I take the electrical bit out and start it with a screwdriver it starts no problem. It appears that the key does not turn enough to engage the starter. Has anyone else come across this? I can't see anyway to take the tumbler and whole mechanism apart, so am I screwed??? do I have to buy the whole switch/lock/tumbler mechanism or am I barking up the worng tree (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I have had this exact problem. I just corrected the problem on my car a couple of days ago.

Moggy - You are exactly right on with what I found. I bought and tried 2 new replacement switches and both exhibited the same problem. The replacement switches just do not seem to turn far enough to make the needed electrical contact to engage the starter. I went through most of the starting system before I finally norrowed the problem down to the white electrical switch not working. I used a multimeter to determine how the switch was working. I disassembled a couple of old switches that had cracks in the housing to see how they work. After understanding how the switch should work I took aprat the new switch and made a couple of modifications to get the new switch to work. I put the white switch back in the car and it now works fine.

The modifications that I performed were to bend the internal "Y" shaped contact terminal to create earlier engagement of the contact. I also replaced the internal rotating disc white plastic part with the part from one of my older switches. THe older disc has less slop in the receiver end that the tumbler spline enters into that forces the rotation.

This was quite a painstaking endeavor to diagnose and correct the problem by reworking the switch. We need to identify the "bad" switch manufacturer and also determine if there is a replacement switch that works properly.

Here is a pic of most of the internals of the white switch.

[davep]

Usually the switch goes bad but seeing as how you have replaced that, then it is probably a defective replacement switch, or the key tumbler is not able to rotate completely. We may have to send you some replacement tumblers. The little slides become worn and sometimes have burrs, or you may find broken bits inside that prevent proper operation. I know I have rekeyed a bunch of locks, but don't recall specifically if I have done ignition tumblers.

Do the switches have manufacturer markings? What year is it?
Doug, I hope we will not be plagued with bad replacement switches.

[AZ914]

Ack.. I'm going to tackle this same thing on Saturday. I have the new white electrical part. However, I can start the car now by turning the key to START while sticking my finger up the access hole under the column and pushing the wiring harness one direction. I figure its the white switch or the wiring... I'll let you know!

[Doug Leggins]

Ack.. I'm going to tackle this same thing on Saturday. I have the new white electrical part. However, I can start the car now by turning the key to START while sticking my finger up the access hole under the column and pushing the wiring harness one direction. I figure its the white switch or the wiring... I'll let you know!

Jason - That is exactly what I had to do to get my car started before I rebuilt the switch. A slight push on the connector and the starter would engage. I initially thought that it was going to be a wire connection issue but it wasn't the wiring. It was the white switch.

I suggest performing a bench top test on the key/tumbler assembly with the white switch installed to check that it functions properly. All that you need is an Ohm meter. I hooked up the leads from my multimeter to the terminals on the white ignition switch that are used for the large center red wire and the terminal for the yellow wire. When the key is turned to the start position the Ohm meter should show continuity between the 2 terminals. If you have continuity, you're good to go. No continuity means that it will not engage the starter.


Last night I found a older white switch that I had in my parts stash. I hooked it up to a spare key/tumbler assembly to determine if it would work properly. I tested it using the Ohm meter. The old switch worked as it should. I removed the old white switch and installed the extra new white switch that I had into the key/tumbler assembly and the new switch did not work -no continuity between the red and yellow terminals. Then I removed the new white switch, turned it with a screwdriver and was able to get continuity.

There is no manufacturer information on the new white switch that I can find. My experience and Moggy's experience is telling me that there is a batch of bad parts out there ( who knows what qty) or this particular brand of switch will not work in our application.

[AZ914]

Doug,

Thanks for the info and explanation. I bought mine from Pelican. Seems they had two flavors (manufacturers). I bought the VAG one. Just got it yesterday. I will do the bench test as you recommend.

Hate to take a chance since one needs to remove the lower dash/column parts etc to get to this thing...

[Joe Ricard]

Oh OH I know, This is a no shit Here is what ya do.
I had this problem whenI converted early to late. Seems the late tumbler piece was worn a bit and would not turn the plastic piece far enough.
What I did is took a dremel to the tang on the tumbler assy. it is what stops rotation. took a few thousandths off and whala now turns far enough to engage contacts. SIMPLE.

Warning there is poetential for you to become a future DAPO if you screw it up.

[914rrr]

[quote name='Doug Leggins' date='Jul 13 2006, 08:18 AM' post='726762']
[quote name='AZ914' post='726731' date='Jul 13 2006, 11:43 AM']


...There is no manufacturer information on the new white switch that I can find. My experience and Moggy's experience is telling me that there is a batch of bad parts out there ( who knows what qty) or this particular brand of switch will not work in our application.
[/quote]

I was/am having the same issues. I found a NOS white plastic replacement switch at a local Import parts house that is at least 10+ years old (the part number label on it had faded to blank!) Same deal, it works with a screwdriver, but not with the mechanical switch part connected.

My 'fix' involved building up the tumbler assembly metal tab that fits into the white plastic switch. On mine you could actually see where the tab was shiny and worn down a few thousandths. I wrapped a single layer of thin mylar duct tape around the tab (just the part that inserts into the white plastic switch). While I had it all apart, I noticed that the tumbler assembly was somewhat sloppy in the steering lock housing, so I put two thin strips of the same mylar on the tumbler assembly. There was similar slop between the white plastic switch and the steering lock housing, so I put some thin strips of electrical tape on the white plastic switch. The key now engages the starter everytime (knock on wood).

It'll hold me over untill I find a NOS or nice used tumbler/key switch. BTW, does anybody know if the VW tumbler/key switch assemblies (except for the tumblers) from the same period are the same/similar?

I also thought about dipping the end of the tab in that 'plasti-dip' stuff to build it up, but didn't get around to trying it.

I talked to Brad Mayeur, and he told me he can set one of his better used tumbler/key switch assemblies to your (good) existing key.

[moggy]

Oh OH I know, This is a no shit Here is what ya do.
I had this problem whenI converted early to late. Seems the late tumbler piece was worn a bit and would not turn the plastic piece far enough.
What I did is took a dremel to the tang on the tumbler assy. it is what stops rotation. took a few thousandths off and whala now turns far enough to engage contacts. SIMPLE.

Warning there is poetential for you to become a future DAPO if you screw it up.

BINGO (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) Thats exactly what I did. Now works a treat.

[Joe Ricard]

Nanner Nanner nanner. I win. Fixed another one. Glad it worked for you.