Someone pissed off Jake & Len, replicating LE heads Options

[brer]

You should have never created this thread...
If I was having some sort of problems last thing I'd want is it on the INTERNET..

I would argue the opposite if you want to point out the culprit and discourage use of their products.

However, I have read every part of this thread and would not know the person to avoid...

I was thinking about this exact thing and was also wanting comment on the difference between an exact digital reproduction of a head and a head that was independently designed incorporating data observed from one or multiple different example of other heads.

The other day I was looking at a collection of port shapes cast from exceptionally ported dragster heads. All of these were tagged and documented and used regularly for reference and study by the person who owned them. Some were taken from blown heads but he also paid good money for alot of the heads they came from. I'm sure if you looked at this persons work you would find elements of other peoples work, which in itself is not unethical in any way. The ideas and techniques may have been individual in application but were definitely not unique to any one port or designer.

Pulling a casting of a port is the way head porting people have done it for years. Its part of the process and is totally in line with the experimental and creative aspects of the work. Digital information is now part of the creative process and I think its fair to extend the practice of casting along with current working methods that utilize the new technology. This is something that already exists within the art of porting.

Taking a silicon casting of a port or digitizing it are the same thing, basically 'COPYING" someones port. But to then take and apply that information wholesale to a product for sale in my opinion is the real ethical transgression, not the casting.

Any head porters want to dispute this? I would like to hear your thoughts.


Of course those who race guard their designs fiercly, but this is the nature of the sport. On the other hand, to offer something for sale publicly means any expectation for secrecy is relinquished and the designer doesn't have any right to attack someone who learns from their work and applies that knowledge.


Duplicating a head for profit is different.

Thats my opinoin as a designer and while I morally agree that their work should not be "carbon copied" and offered for sale I also see a potential for the community to respond in ways that could unfairly affect others in the feild.


What would you think if a new CNC Type 4 head was offered next month? Despite havine zero proof of anything I think I know what my first thought would be. This kinda bugs me and makes me think more details are needed.

[Twise]

I would have just beat his ass. Take care Jake...

[biosurfer1]

I would have just beat his ass. Take care Jake...

Because that would be easy to explain to the judge...

Judge: "and why did you assault Mr. X?"
Jake: "because he said he was going to copy my head design"

I think it would go downhill from there for Jake

[Jake Raby]

What would you think if a new CNC Type 4 head was offered next month?

I'd think we'd have to release something that would kick it's ass.

We already have it.

And it would have to be proven. We had a solid year of data from the LE heads on our engines before the first unit was sold to a paying customer. The very first set that were completed were used on my 3,450 mile R&D excursion in early 2006 where we gathered 2Gb of data logs and 75 pages of "pilot's notes". See some of the data at www.aircooledtechnology.com/crosscountry



This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Nov 26 2008, 02:22 PM

[PeeGreen 914]

I cannot log on and read Jakes forum since I am not a member. All I see here is a bunch of random ramblings that say nothing about what this guy was going to do. Sure would be nice to know what was really going on. All I see is Jake coming off looking poorly with what is shown here and I would like to think differently. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[Jake Raby]

All I see is Jake coming off looking poorly with what is shown here and I would like to think differently.

So, someone gets poor reviews when they take up for themselves and the things that they and their network create?

And remember: I started a thread on my private forums, not here. It never belonged here and it still doesn't.

At the present time there are complications involved with more definitive postings, we'll share details when the time is right and when it can be done without sacrifice.



This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Nov 26 2008, 02:37 PM

[PeeGreen 914]

All I see is Jake coming off looking poorly with what is shown here and I would like to think differently.

So, someone gets poor reviews when they take up for themselves and the things that they and their network create?

And remember: I started a thread on my private forums, not here. It never belonged here and it still doesn't.

At the present time there are complications involved with more definitive postings, we'll share details when the time is right and when it can be done without sacrifice.

But Jake, you are a business man who makes a great product and has a gift to do amazing things. When you come on here and don't say anything other than how great your lawyers are and that they will take care of it for you without even saying what the issue is just seems assholish. You have people on here trying to guess as to what actually happened without even telling them right or wrong. I see you created the thread on your private forum, but I cannot get in so I guess unless you explain it here I will never understand.

[Jake Raby]

The problem is simple. Someone has tried to replicate our heads. We stopped them. We are doing everything possible to ensure this doesn't happen again.

Thats all that needs to be said here.

I appreciate the compliments, and I really am not trying to be an asshole- even though I am sure it comes across that way here on the board.

I have ots going on right now as we are in the middle of a 3,500 square foot shop expansion (that I am doing myself) on top of the normal crazy season we are having, couple that to the fact that Excelence just featured our M96 engine work and then throw in the fact that my dad just got home from a week in the Hospital with Pneumonia and top it with this issue...

To say the least I am on edge, plus I have a damn cold and feel like shit, but I was here at 0445 this morning... To say the least, this thread is the last thing I need to worry about. Thats why I posted this on MY forums, where people that appreciate what we create hang out.

[CliffBraun]

All I see is Jake coming off looking poorly with what is shown here and I would like to think differently.

So, someone gets poor reviews when they take up for themselves and the things that they and their network create?

And remember: I started a thread on my private forums, not here. It never belonged here and it still doesn't.

At the present time there are complications involved with more definitive postings, we'll share details when the time is right and when it can be done without sacrifice.

But Jake, you are a business man who makes a great product and has a gift to do amazing things. When you come on here and don't say anything other than how great your lawyers are and that they will take care of it for you without even saying what the issue is just seems assholish. You have people on here trying to guess as to what actually happened without even telling them right or wrong. I see you created the thread on your private forum, but I cannot get in so I guess unless you explain it here I will never understand.

Jake, you seem to have a decent product line, but the way you conduct yourself here is embarrassing.

You're essentially agreeing, at this point, with the positions of people you called smart-asses on the previous pages. You withhold information that's of very limited use to anyone, and would seem to make your position stronger here, with your potential customers.

I also enjoy that you've just stated that your current products are not your best work, should we all wait until you release your new killer heads before buying?

If I were you I'd realize that your reputation is a large part of your product and that even if someone were to make an exact replica of your product, they would have a hard time selling it to the community. I would also consider how much value the good will of the community has. Coca Cola has (or until recently had) goodwill of customers listed as a BILLION dollar asset on their balance sheet.

Further, I'm still waiting on supertrapp results in the other thread, I'm somewhat suspect of you posting information after this thread has dropped off the front page, as a result.

I'd just focus on improving my work and let the people copy it, they'll be so far behind it won't matter. I could take a casting of the heads I had ported for my engine and all I would do is kinda amuse the guy who did them.

[96740]

I cannot log on and read Jakes forum since I am not a member. All I see here is a bunch of random ramblings that say nothing about what this guy was going to do. Sure would be nice to know what was really going on.

+1 ------------ I tried to register to read for myself but regisration has been disabled. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[ArtechnikA]

I also enjoy that you've just stated that your current products are not your best work, should we all wait until you release your new killer heads before buying?

Next year's computer / TV / Porsche / camera / refrigerator will be better than this year's. All successful companies have continuous product improvement programs.

You buy when you perceive that the value of the product offered matches your need.

[Jake Raby]

I cannot log on and read Jakes forum since I am not a member. All I see here is a bunch of random ramblings that say nothing about what this guy was going to do. Sure would be nice to know what was really going on.

+1 ------------ I tried to register to read for myself but regisration has been disabled. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I detailed why registration has been disabled for the past 2 weeks in a post this morning- Its due to 500 spammers a day invading the site, so many that I could not control it and it's happening to other forums using the same software.

I also enjoy that you've just stated that your current products are not your best work, should we all wait until you release your new killer heads before buying?

Lets clarify something:

What we sell today is the most proven and most effective and most understood offering. Its something that we can dictate tuning for and something that we fully understand. We must understand it before we can support it, if not we'd be like 95% of the other TIV sources, just selling parts that they don't work with.

My Turn Key engines always have and always will get the most updated components. This is for many reasons, but primarily so we can observe them first hand and learn about them prior to releasing them to individuals. This holds true for cylinder heads as well as other components likeour roller cams and lifters that are available in turn key engines at the present, but not in kits or as individual items available through my store..

Anyone who is waiting for us to create the most killer head on the planet will be waiting a while, as we constantly alter things and try to make them better. Ten years ago I was lucky if a 2270 made 140 HP, today that same engine makes 190HP, runs cooler and gets better MPG. Its a process of evolution that we have gone through over time.

The fact is that no matter if the head that was to be replicated is 1 week old technology or 10 year old technology, we still must do what we can to secure it. The other fact is that even though this head is 6+ months old and has been superseded its still better than ANYTHING commercially available based on the TIV casting.

As far as the Supertrapp thread goes- after the crap that was stirred from this thread I won't dare post anything that could stir a debate here for a long time. I simply don't have the time for it.

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Nov 26 2008, 03:26 PM

[davep]

And remember: I started a thread on my private forums, not here. It never belonged here and it still doesn't.

I'm almost sorry I started the thread. I intended the word to get out, and the watch extended.
To those that want to dis Jake at every opportunity, go start your own damn thread and don't hijack mine.
I DEVELOP my own parts and services, so I relate well with what Jake & Len are facing.

[PeeGreen 914]

And remember: I started a thread on my private forums, not here. It never belonged here and it still doesn't.

I'm almost sorry I started the thread. I intended the word to get out, and the watch extended.
To those that want to dis Jake at every opportunity, go start your own damn thread and don't hijack mine.
I DEVELOP my own parts and services, so I relate well with what Jake & Len are facing.

Don'tmiss understand my stance. I am happy for what Jake is doing and hope to have a 914 with one of his engines someday. Since there are not any new members being accepted at this point it was difficult for any of us outsiders, who do like to hear about MassIVe, to really know what was going on. And though Jake has a lot on his plate his answers were short and agressive making him look bad. I understand why know after he told what he has going on.

I know Jake has many who oppose his work but I wish he would post more about what he has going on here. I really don't go to any other forum as this is the place that interests me and has the peole I enjoy talking to. Everyone has those who try to talk them down but the MassIVe success speaks clearly for itself.

[CliffBraun]

And remember: I started a thread on my private forums, not here. It never belonged here and it still doesn't.

I'm almost sorry I started the thread. I intended the word to get out, and the watch extended.
To those that want to dis Jake at every opportunity, go start your own damn thread and don't hijack mine.
I DEVELOP my own parts and services, so I relate well with what Jake & Len are facing.

It's really not at every opportunity, just when he's inordinately full of it.

I've made some custom parts for my 914, and I'm in engineering, so I also understand what he's facing, but I'd rather just make the community aware of the issue and let them decide than threaten. Or I will patent my patentable processes.

Speaking of which, Who is this asshole, Jake? I know you've stopped him, but I'm sure there are enough people who feel that's not right to prevent him from having the resources for an attempt in the future.

[96740]

I detailed why registration has been disabled for the past 2 weeks in a post this morning- Its due to 500 spammers a day invading the site, so many that I could not control it and it's happening to other forums using the same software.

Understood. I'm on a couple of forums that make you register with a "REAL" e-mail address. No more Hotmail, Yahoo or GMail.

[PeeGreen 914]

I detailed why registration has been disabled for the past 2 weeks in a post this morning- Its due to 500 spammers a day invading the site, so many that I could not control it and it's happening to other forums using the same software.

Understood. I'm on a couple of forums that make you register with a "REAL" e-mail address. No more Hotmail, Yahoo or GMail.

Hmmmmm... that's all I have is a yahoo and hotmail account. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[brer]

What would you think if a new CNC Type 4 head was offered next month?

I'd think we'd have to release something that would kick it's ass.

We already have it.

And it would have to be proven. We had a solid year of data from the LE heads on our engines before the first unit was sold to a paying customer. The very first set that were completed were used on my 3,450 mile R&D excursion in early 2006 where we gathered 2Gb of data logs and 75 pages of "pilot's notes". See some of the data at www.aircooledtechnology.com/crosscountry

Yep, i have no doubt you could.

[HAM Inc]

I also enjoy that you've just stated that your current products are not your best work, should we all wait until you release your new killer heads before buying?

Wow! How you drew that conclusion is a bit of a mystery to me, as is the controversy that has erupted over this.
Actually what Jake and I said is that due to constant development, no matter how incremental, our current product represents our state of the art for that moment in time. It in no way infers that our previous work is inferior, much less defective in some way. It only implies that it is not as developed as our present offerings.

When I was told that someone had wished to borrow one of my heads to copy, I was a bit amused. But let me tell you that passed pretty quickly. This isn't a game to me. I have a mortgage, bills, and responsibilities just like everyone else. The only source of income I have to pay those bills is cylinderhead work. I have busted my ass to put myself in a position where I can make a decent living doing something I love. I am nothing but grateful to have Jake on the lookout for me, as I am not the best at that sort of thing. And in the long run everyone whho may one day wish to purchase state of the art cylinderheads should be too. Do you really think that someone who would just copy another guys work is going to be committed to R&D? If the market gets flooded with knock offs I will have no choice but to redirect my focus to another market. Don't want to sound arrogant (I'm actually a pretty humble guy!), but I just don't see anyone else pushing themselves to produce the best heads possible out there.

I had a plan before I started this business. The plan was based on my belief that there was a market for superior value added service in the aircooled cylinderhead business. Ofcourse I knew that plenty of other shops are more than capable of throwing seats and guides at castings and shoving them out the door. To succeed I would have to have a healthy committment to R&D and pour every resource I had (have) back into the business. I have been doing that for over 1o years now, so it is natural that I would be proud of the fact that my head technology has advanced to such a high state. It is also natural that I would want to guard my trade secrets. Jumping down Jakes throat for being aggressive in his defense of these secrets is a bit obnoxious in my opnion. Jake has played a HUGE role in the development of the heads. All of the tricks are mine, but all of the feedback comes from him. For that reason the LE heads are only available through the T4Store. Which means that Jake has a stake in them too.

Yes, it's true that Jake is blunt, frank and sometimes comes off as an asshole. But the fact is he's a nice guy who just doesn't like being crossed. Some folks shrug off being (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif) , even at their own expence. Not Jake, and I respect that.

Without Jake paving the way there would be a huge void in my business and the overall development of T4's that so many board members now take for granted. Make no mistake, the 914 (as is the conversion market, and now the Boxster market ) is much better off for his efforts. Consider this; even our competition knows where to look for the cream of the crop.
Damn! I can't believe I just typed that much!

[DBCooper]

This has been blown WAY out of proportion. From what I read SOMEONE said "Could I buy a head so I could copy it? Hardy har har."

That's it, nothing more. Probably just a bad joke, like the ones you restrain yourself from blurting out in airport security. It's the wrong thing to say at the wrong time to the wrong person, so instead of getting a laugh we now have a full season's worth of drama.