Someone pissed off Jake & Len, replicating LE heads Options

[Jake Raby]

My forum is not new, it has over 3,000 members and has been open for almost 3 years. I created it so i could have a place to post things that tout what we do without having to fight the bullshit on other forums when people think we are beating our chests. Thats why I stopped posting critical information on other forums, or giving out technical advice that could be argued with.

A few years ago I had some time to argue, today I don't as I am here at 0500 and don't leave till 7-8 PM at best most days and still don't accomplish all my tasks.

At any rate, this will be my final post in this thread - I have a second floor to finish in my new shop (classrooms) and need to have positive momentum this entire weekend to get it completed. The Aircooled University will be in session in Summer 09 and I have lots to do before that!

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Nov 26 2008, 04:55 PM

[SirAndy]

I also enjoy that you've just stated that your current products are not your best work, should we all wait until you release your new killer heads before buying?

It's called "progress" ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

You should try it some day.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) Andy

[tod914]

It's great to see people as passionate about their work as you and Len.
Keep up the good work guys, and thanks for your contributions to the community.

[EdwardBlume]

In almost every industry, designs get "improved" with the help of attys. Len and Jake have a right to fight it and make us aware that an attempt to steal their work has been made.

If you don't already know this, no one makes a ton of money with 914s because the volume is not there. As a group we need to protect vendors who put their heart, soul, time and effort into our cars. I believe in Jake and Len's work and I believe they've earned our respect through their work. I want to know who the not so clever copy cat is, so I can steer clear, but even if I don't know who it is, I'm loyal to the real 914 members and vendors who do care about us and our cars. No matter the cost.

We all have heard stories about 914 members helping other members, donating in times of need, and building a real community. Jake and Len are a very important and knowledgable part of our community and we should ALL respect that. Now is the time to lend some of our support.

[davep]

From what I read SOMEONE said "Could I buy a head so I could copy it? Hardy har har."

Then you had better go back and read from the horse's mouth.
"he asked the caller why he wanted to see one, he replied that he wanted to BORROW one for replication"
That is the lowest level of IP theft!

[DBCooper]

From what I read SOMEONE said "Could I buy a head so I could copy it? Hardy har har."

Then you had better go back and read from the horse's mouth.
"he asked the caller why he wanted to see one, he replied that he wanted to BORROW one for replication"
That is the lowest level of IP theft!

It's not possible to go back an re-read the thread now because the link won't let you into those forums. But this whole story smells funny. So tell me since I can't re-read it, who was the "he" who asked "the caller"? And who was the caller? A competitor? Or was it just some yahoo on the phone making sarcastic joke? Do you know? Does Jake?

If somebody asked me a stupid question like "why do you want to see it?" [when I might want to see it before I bought it just because it costs so much] I might make some stupid sarcastic remark too. So what exactly was the story? Did anything happen at all? Or is all this just pointless drama because someone was trying to make a funny?

[r_towle]

From what I read SOMEONE said "Could I buy a head so I could copy it? Hardy har har."

Then you had better go back and read from the horse's mouth.
"he asked the caller why he wanted to see one, he replied that he wanted to BORROW one for replication"
That is the lowest level of IP theft!

It's not possible to go back an re-read the thread now because the link won't let you into those forums. But this whole story smells funny. So tell me since I can't re-read it, who was the "he" who asked "the caller"? And who was the caller? A competitor? Or was it just some yahoo on the phone making sarcastic joke? Do you know? Does Jake?

If somebody asked me a stupid question like "why do you want to see it?" [when I might want to see it before I bought it just because it costs so much] I might make some stupid sarcastic remark too. So what exactly was the story? Did anything happen at all? Or is all this just pointless drama because someone was trying to make a funny?

DB...
For whatever reason you seem to have a hair accross your ass about this.
For legal reasons, no one should need to know who this person is, or have the ability to slander this person during the investigation and legal proceedings...

DB...legal rules would allow this person to get away with it and accuse Jake/Len of something worse in the process just so YOU get to know who it is.
Dont take that the wrong way, but please think about what you are asking and the consequences to Jake and Len...

This issue is being dealt with by Jake and Len...it was posted here so that if and when you happen to see heads that are copies that may or may not pop up on Ebay some day....you might remember.

It was posted by a client, not by Jake. Both Jake and Len came here to explain and defend their business practices...they did not come here for your approval or judgement on the case.

IP law and the protection of IP, including tradmemarks like VW , Beetle, Porsche has been going on for ages...nothing wrong with a business standing up for its rights.

Rich

[Chris Hamilton]

DB...
For whatever reason you seem to have a hair accross your ass about this.
For legal reasons, no one should need to know who this person is, or have the ability to slander this person during the investigation and legal proceedings...

DB...legal rules would allow this person to get away with it and accuse Jake/Len of something worse in the process just so YOU get to know who it is.
Dont take that the wrong way, but please think about what you are asking and the consequences to Jake and Len...

This issue is being dealt with by Jake and Len...it was posted here so that if and when you happen to see heads that are copies that may or may not pop up on Ebay some day....you might remember.

It was posted by a client, not by Jake. Both Jake and Len came here to explain and defend their business practices...they did not come here for your approval or judgement on the case.

IP law and the protection of IP, including tradmemarks like VW , Beetle, Porsche has been going on for ages...nothing wrong with a business standing up for its rights.

Rich

For it to be "intellectual property" don't you need to prove that it belongs to you and not anyone else? ( i.e. patent it ?)

[r_towle]

DB...
For whatever reason you seem to have a hair accross your ass about this.
For legal reasons, no one should need to know who this person is, or have the ability to slander this person during the investigation and legal proceedings...

DB...legal rules would allow this person to get away with it and accuse Jake/Len of something worse in the process just so YOU get to know who it is.
Dont take that the wrong way, but please think about what you are asking and the consequences to Jake and Len...

This issue is being dealt with by Jake and Len...it was posted here so that if and when you happen to see heads that are copies that may or may not pop up on Ebay some day....you might remember.

It was posted by a client, not by Jake. Both Jake and Len came here to explain and defend their business practices...they did not come here for your approval or judgement on the case.

IP law and the protection of IP, including tradmemarks like VW , Beetle, Porsche has been going on for ages...nothing wrong with a business standing up for its rights.

Rich

For it to be "intellectual property" don't you need to prove that it belongs to you and not anyone else? ( i.e. patent it ?)

I am not a lawyer.
I do know however that there are alot of views of IP and quite a few laws regarding IP and how its supported by the legal system...be it a process, a product, copy rights, trademarks, all of these are property.

Rich

[G e o r g e]

DB...
For whatever reason you seem to have a hair accross your ass about this.
For legal reasons, no one should need to know who this person is, or have the ability to slander this person during the investigation and legal proceedings...

DB...legal rules would allow this person to get away with it and accuse Jake/Len of something worse in the process just so YOU get to know who it is.
Dont take that the wrong way, but please think about what you are asking and the consequences to Jake and Len...

This issue is being dealt with by Jake and Len...it was posted here so that if and when you happen to see heads that are copies that may or may not pop up on Ebay some day....you might remember.

It was posted by a client, not by Jake. Both Jake and Len came here to explain and defend their business practices...they did not come here for your approval or judgement on the case.

IP law and the protection of IP, including tradmemarks like VW , Beetle, Porsche has been going on for ages...nothing wrong with a business standing up for its rights.

Rich

Rich

DB/ Paul Illick always has a hair up his ass for Jake

just because you change your screen name doesn't mean you get a fresh start

reading DB (Illick )/ jake is like reading Grant /jake (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) it just gets old

[SirAndy]

For it to be "intellectual property" don't you need to prove that it belongs to you and not anyone else?

Sure, but neither Len nor Jake need to prove anything to *YOU* ...

So, legally, it's perfectly fine that they refrain from giving any information on the subject in a public forum.

I know your beef with Jake, so i know where you're coming from ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) Andy

[Chris Hamilton]

For it to be "intellectual property" don't you need to prove that it belongs to you and not anyone else?

Sure, but neither Len nor Jake need to prove anything to *YOU* ...

So, legally, it's perfectly fine that they refrain from giving any information on the subject in a public forum.

I know your beef with Jake, so i know where you're coming from ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) Andy

I was asking in a purely hypothetical sense, but hey it's your forum if you don't want me asking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[ArtechnikA]

For it to be "intellectual property" don't you need to prove that it belongs to you and not anyone else?

I was asking in a purely hypothetical sense, but hey it's your forum if you don't want me asking.

OK - as long as we're talking generalities, the short answer is no.

For it to be -your- intellectual property, you will need to prove it belongs to you in order to prevail in legal action.

It's always IP, so it's not a matter of when does it become such - it becomes such at the moment of conception. It's a matter of ownership, and that's quite a different matter, especially as there are different forms of protection available depending on the form of the IP.

*generally* - you can patent a 'thing' which (as originally conceived) means you can charge others a fee (the royalty) for the reproduction of the thing. (It was not intended as a means of granting you the exclusive right to manufacture, but that is its current effect.) And patent history is rife with people who were able to patent someone else's idea first, thereby gaining legal ownership of the rights. And there are even lots of cases where multiple people, working completely independently, came up with the same ideas at essentially the same time. (These are almost exclusively from the pre-Internet-universally connected days. I don't think there are many patents filed these days by people working completely independently...)

In today's world, tho, the patent process exposes many details to the public, and producing an actual product does the same. What if your factory has a special widget-making machine that uses some unique process by which it's possible for you to make widgets cheaper, faster, and better than any one else? Is there protection for that? Sure - it's called 'trade secret' and the thing is - you must treat it as secret. Label the files - put measure in place to make sure they do not escape - make everyone who sees the material sign nondisclosure statements...

(As long as we're talking hypothetical generalities, here's a HYPOTHETICAL drawn from the material in this thread. Suppose you have a cylinder head that's just a normal production-car cylinder head. But you have a machining process using post-industrial dilithium crystals and a coolant bath of hummingbird spit that lets you cut valve seats in one second. You don't patent that process because you never plan to mass-product the machine, and if the secret were out, every one would do it. Treat it like a secret, and if some one steals the idea, you have a cause of action.) I gather that there is an element of this in play here.

Copyright protects 'an expression.' A picture - a painting - a story. It's the property of the maker the moment it's made. Currently I believe the duration of a copyright is life of the maker plus 75 years, but it's changed several times through the years. But it is the expression that is protected - not the idea. You may feel "Romeo and Juliet" was a shameless ripoff of "West Side Story" but most would agree the difference is in the telling...

Copyrights are fairly easy to give away, unfortunately, especially in these Internet days, and I am not qualified to post specifics. Suffice to say that it's probably best to display the copyright you claim along with the material you want protected. There are levels of copyright protection that involve government registration of interest of serious, professional generators of protectable content - photographers, writers, musicians - like that. Way beyond the scope of this thread...

Trademark and servicemark exist to give you the (more or less) exclusive right to a word or phrase to identify your product. e.g. - Porsche claims 'visual trademark' on the unique shapes of (most of) their cars, including 911 and 928 (but not 914...). Some things (like numbers...) can't be trademarked, which is why the "next generation" of Intel computer processor, following the 8086. 80186, 80286, 80386, and 80486 was - ta da - 'Pentium.' (AMD was starting to use "x86" numbering...) And yes, we all know the '911' isn't a '901' because Peugeot complained about the "middle zero." French laws are different...

And you can't get a registered trademark on everyday words with common meanings. Like "Windows." (OK, bad example...)

Lots of technical products have *multiple layers* of protectable IP. A computer chip may have a patentable circuit implemented with a patented ion deposition process using a patented combination of rare gasses making a computer with copyrighted fabrication layout graphics and schematics and principals of operation, with a trade-secret fabrication foundry machine resulting in a part with a trademarked name.

Of course, this is all an existential and legal issue.

Something _is_ intellectual property as soon as it's created.
It _might be_ yours legally, unless someone else files to protect it first (and they had a right to do so, meaning they came by the material legitimately). It doesn't have to be yours for you to claim it's yours, which is when the lawyers get involved...

You don't have to file for any kind of government protection for IP to *be* yours, but in many cases it strengthens your position (a lot). Like many rights, they can be lost or given away. If you don't act like you want something protected, generally, your protections will be lost. (This thread is about Jake and Len acting like they want their stuff protected.)

[DBCooper]

It's not possible to go back an re-read the thread now because the link won't let you into those forums. But this whole story smells funny. So tell me since I can't re-read it, who was the "he" who asked "the caller"? And who was the caller? A competitor? Or was it just some yahoo on the phone making sarcastic joke? Do you know? Does Jake?

If somebody asked me a stupid question like "why do you want to see it?" [when I might want to see it before I bought it just because it costs so much] I might make some stupid sarcastic remark too. So what exactly was the story? Did anything happen at all? Or is all this just pointless drama because someone was trying to make a funny?

DB...
For whatever reason you seem to have a hair accross your ass about this.
For legal reasons, no one should need to know who this person is, or have the ability to slander this person during the investigation and legal proceedings...

DB...legal rules would allow this person to get away with it and accuse Jake/Len of something worse in the process just so YOU get to know who it is.
Dont take that the wrong way, but please think about what you are asking and the consequences to Jake and Len...

This issue is being dealt with by Jake and Len...it was posted here so that if and when you happen to see heads that are copies that may or may not pop up on Ebay some day....you might remember.

It was posted by a client, not by Jake. Both Jake and Len came here to explain and defend their business practices...they did not come here for your approval or judgement on the case.

IP law and the protection of IP, including tradmemarks like VW , Beetle, Porsche has been going on for ages...nothing wrong with a business standing up for its rights.

Rich

Fine, Rich, so pages and pages of discussion, on this and other forums, and I ask, did this really happen as it's been presented? Or is it possible someone was just making a stupid joke and this has all been totally blown out of proportion? I don't need names or even really care who it was, what I'd like to know is if there's any actual proof, or is this all just hearsay? Is this phone conversation by other people being remembered and then reported verbatim? Was this "other party" even really a competitor? Or just some random yahoo? Important details, like for example did the guy laugh after he asked if he could "borrow" the head?

Serious question. Look, people look at their competitor's products all the time, and that's normal. You think Jake and Len don't look at the work of other head porters? EVERYONE does it and it doesn't mean a thing. So what's the problem? Is there one? Really? And more, why would another head porter, someone who has the means, need to "borrow" a head? Why wouldn't he just buy one? Online, T4 Store, no questions asked? Buy it and return it if he was strapped. Even more important, if this mysterious guy on the line really had bad intentions, then why ON EARTH would he announce them like that? There are a hundred simple explanations he could have given, like he wanted to show it to a customer, show it to his wife before he paid $1000 for it, see if it matched the one he bought on e-bay, whatever.

Excuse me, but this story doesn't make any sense unless it was just someone making a stupid sarcastic joke. Is it being negative to notice that Jake is prone to exaggerate? The stupid joke explanation makes a lot more sense than believing that a thief would call you on the phone to ask if you'd help him rob you.

There is no intention to slam anyone, and in re-reading things I don't think anyone HAS been slammed. But for this amount of drama I have to think there are a lot of questions that haven't been answered. Or even asked.

Oh, and Happy Thanksgiving, everybody.

[HAM Inc]

DB the info came to me from a credible source. A customer who has supported many 914 vendors over the years with actual purchases. He is also a regular here on the board, and active in the 914 community. He is staunch supporter of the community at large and loves 914's. He has never been a drama queen on the boards, and to my knowledge has never penned a single controversial thread. He is a successful professional with better things to do with his time, and nothing to gain by fabricating a tale like this. He too was astonished that this guy made such a request. And for the record the guy didn't acknowledge his motives right away. Our customer at first assumed that that the reason the guy wanted to borrow a pair of heads was to try them out. He told the guy that there was no way he was going to let him install and run his heads. That's when the fellow revealed that he wasn't going to install them, he just wanted to digitize them. Our freind then alerted me when I phoned him to talk about a order he had in my shop.

Now I'll admit that we haven't had our people properly vett our customer. Which means he could be a flaming idealogue with an agenda to create much drama for no good reason. I suppose it's possible, but...well... actually I don't think it's possible.

It's my hunch that there is really nothing more to read into the story than what I just wrote, which is about all that any of us know at this point. Simply put, a shop out there that is not all that plugged in to the community at large, (but is aware of it) made a sloppy effort to put there hands on a pair of our heads so they could copy them. True, it's not Watergate, but this our little world, and my and Jakes livelyhoods are tied to our ability to stay at east one step ahead of our competition. Excuse us if we react to something like this a bit heavy handed. And don't forget that we didn't post this here, and we didn't turn the thread into a inquisition of our motives.

Serious question. Look, people look at their competitor's products all the time, and that's normal. You think Jake and Len don't look at the work of other head porters? EVERYONE does it and it doesn't mean a thing. So what's the problem? Is there one? Really?

Over the years I have had samples of work from every major aircooled shop in the country and many that I never heard of and even more that I never knew the source, land on one of my work benches for service. In some cases the work came to me before it was even installed! I have NEVER sought a competitors work to copy or even get ideas from. I will freely admit to copying my dads work, and more than specific work to copying his philosophy regarding many ICE specifics. He has told me that he doesn't mind.

I have been impressed with some of the work of my competitors. And I have been severely underwhelmed by others. I have had work from what I would consider my biggest competitor on my flow bench and was surprised and pleased to find that his 48mm valved T4 intake port flowed CONSIDERABLY less than our LE-200 44mm port! I don't make a big public display out of it, but it sures makes me feel warm and gushy inside!

Most of the high theory advancement and new ideas that come to me from other sources come from my associations with V8 circle track engine builders. I have a close knit circle of very successful regional race engine builders. Since we are old freinds and not in competition with each other on or off the track, we really enjoy our high minded discussions and sharing with each other our latest observations and discoveries. Sometimes it's new and faster tooling, methods, more durable materials, and sometimes it's very specific performance enhancing innovations. I don't look to the aircooled head guys for ideas. So far I've been able to glean any info I've needed from my dad, my circle of fellow engine builders or Jake. And ofcourse I'll be the first to admit that I am a devotee of Smokey Yunick, Joe Mondello, and Jim Fueling among others. I tap into the SAE library and have read many papers on combustion, induction and exhaust theory. I keep myself informed. I do not and have never copied someone elses aircooled cylinderhead work. I have been inspired by others work, but copy, no.
And one last thing. As shitty as it would be to buy a guys work and copy it, at least the vendor would have gotten something from the asshole. To just borrow the guys work to copy... Damn! At lest give a reach around if your going to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif) a guy!
Happy T-Giving everyone! Even you DB!

[PeeGreen 914]

Len, thanks for writing all that. It really helps put into perspective as to what actually happened.

Even though you didn't make it a point to get anything from your competitors work or try to copy it I would be surprised if it didn't spark an idea or two from seeing something they did or didn't do. Plus all your studies of what has been done throughout time helps but it is studying something someone else came out with. Now I don't know much about machining or what it means to digitize something but even though this guy comes across as someone with illintentions he may have just wanted to study it. However, I too would take steps to make sure it didn't go beyond the guy trying to further his knowledge.

Have a great Thanksgiving as well.

[stepuptotheMike]

Geez guys. Go eat some turkey and drink some scotch. Passion is a good thing, but no need to throw accusations back and forth.

Hope everyone has a happy Thanksgiving and realize how fortunate we all are.

Mike

[DBCooper]

Thanks, Len, excellent and levelheaded explanation. Much easier to understand the issues when there are more facts and less drama.

I still think it strange and incredibly stupid that any competitor would admit to that. Boggles the mind, but if that's the level of the "competition" then I don't think you have all that much to worry about.

[KaptKaos]

I still think it strange and incredibly stupid that any competitor would admit to that.

It's not too hard to fathom actually. The copycat may have thought that the guy with the heads is a friend. How else would he have known that the guy had a set of Len's heads?

Obviously, the fellow with the heads thinks otherwise.

[RJMII]

Len, that was really well put.