I think all of us can see the point. I don't blame anyone who chooses not to work on old beat up heads. Why put lipstick on a pig? For some, myself included, 2k is hard to swallow. We'll either save up or attempt to find someone to save our old heads. It is sad to see that the "go to guy" for old heads is no longer an option.

I agree with everything Jake just said and some of what Randy said.

I know that spending big money on a pair of heads for you car is not fun. No one see's them once they are installed. You can't continue to admire them when they are beneath the sheet-metal.
But we are not throwing the baby out with the bath water. If anything we are taking risk to ensure that those out there who do want the highest possible quality cylinder heads have that option. Trust me the decision was not made lightly. As a business man it is tough to turn down work, so I put the decision off for several years until it just became a no-brainer. Jake made that commitment in '04! And his business has grown during those years. Perhaps it is because he doesn't compromise his kits and turnkey engines with a hodge-podge of used heads?

If we had a consistent source of quality cores then that would be peachy. Unfortunately it's true that I couldn't buy a decent lunch if I had a dollar for every truly cherry pair of T4 heads I've seen in the last 4 years.
(Which reminds me. I will work over a pair of O.E. NOS heads. Years ago a well known 914 vendor showed me a pair NOS 2.0 heads still in the cosmoline. You should have seen the look on his face when I told him now was the time to replace the valve seats!)

If you want the best possible engine you will not use 35 year old heads. My business was built on the idea of providing my customers with what I feel is the best quality available at the best price possible, not providing the lowest price possible and tailoring the quality to fit that lower price.

That must be one hell of an engine if it keeps me from getting nails in my tires

I know that isn't what you meant but everyone with a 914 should have AAA.

I agree, it's been nearly 3 decades since I last saw unmolested 914/T4 heads. In fact, I remember the last set I saw. An original owner '71 914 that was about 20 years old, and we did the motor because of the age and mileage, not because it ran badly. It's interesting that I just found in my stash 2 sets of 356A heads that have never been touched, still with the bronze intake seats!

The Cap'n

I dunnow.....

There might be virgins in the world......

Wonder if they might look like this.

The DAPO said he installed them, put the engine back in the car, the engine wouldn't turn over, and he gave up. I'm guessing this happened in the 1980s.

The only marks I could find in the exhaust area was a couple of scrapes from the exhaust install.

is that Rust on your suspension ear?

Jup,

It matches the rest of the car.

However, that car sits next to a non-rusty North Carolina car.

Those aren't virgins.. They've had exhaust studs replaced and inserts installed. Gripes with the exhaust studs are my #1 pet peeve with TIV heads. I HATE stripped studs and poorly sealing exhaust flanges.

Lemme know if you want to sell the 356 heads..

As far as the type 4 heads being to old to work with...I dont agree.
I totally understand Jakes opinion and Lens business decision...its really logical and its good business for them to make these decisions.

I do not agree that it is the only choice nor is it the right choice for everyone. Its Jake and Lens choice.

Thankfully there have been many shops doing air cooled heads all over the country for 30 years or more and many of these shops are still quite knowledgable regarding these heads.

One benefit of all the new motors with aluminum heads is that the process for replacing valve seats is no longer a mystery and the risks have been lowered considerably..

To reflect Ricks point about the chevy machine shop....lol I was there today.
He had five sets of aluminum heads...there were no cast heads in the place...
Progress has advantages.

I suggest someone, at some point, should make a thread of all the machine shops that still work on our engines....it will not be a long list, but it will be enough for the diminishing niche market that we represent.

I suspect that if someone made new castings of 356 heads, there would be a line at the door to buy them. With no new parts on the horizon the 914 heads will head the same direction as the 36hp vw heads, and the many variations of the 356 heads and we will be serviced by machine shops that have worked on these engines for many years.

Its not the end of the world, nor the end of an era, its just a business decision made by two businessmen that cant justify the ROI when dealing with older used heads.

Rich

I might be interested in picking up Mark's heads for you, Joe

Another good excuse to say hi

BTW, Len has always been a class act and one to emulate

Rich,
You are assuming way too much in your post. What makes no sense and has the least ROI is using the most critical component of an engine after it has been heat cycled for 35 years, abused, neglected and generally thrashed on.

Replace all the other components, update the crankcase and top that off with a pair of cylinder heads that are marginal at best doesn't really appeal to me or my clients that want to do this job once and not do it again.

We will continue to offer machine shop services for all other aspects of the engine, just not cylinder heads.

The 356/912 is an engine that I hate to work with because most everything is in the same boat as the heads on the TIV. It has all been used, abused and is basically worn out since the last engine of the series (616) came off the assembly line in 1969.

Now that these heads are no longer the focus of Len I am sure that others will take advantage of that and provide the same old services that everyone else has and will go on providing something to help cripple these engines along for another few more years. Matter of fact I could make a forecast right now who will jump on that bandwagon of opportunity next.

When I made the decision not to use ANY rebuilt heads on my engines it wasn't a business decision that was made due to profits or productivity rates. I wanted to retain the reputation that I had worked hard to attain and have continued to perpetuate that. When we had a casting failure on a 2.6 liter engine I vowed that would never happen again. That was the last engine failure that we had and it was in 2004.

I'd rather not produce an engine as to produce an engine thats sub-standard or fails.

...and its hard to plan shop loading when worms keep crawling out, thus extending the promised completion date of a customer's car
used heads ARE a bummer and
2 grand is a bargain!

untill you have done it, its difficult to really understand how much effort it takes to fight "those worms"

If you don't think aluminum castings fatique you need to do some research. Rapid heating (as in get in the car and hammer on it as soon as it is running) hundreds if not thousands of times takes it toll on heads. They crack for two significant reasons.
1) They are heated so fast that the associated expansion occurs at a rate faster than the area of the casting can handle . The cracks that occur under the ex seats are likely caused by this phenomana.
2) The casting fatiques and loses it's memory meaning it doesn't return to its natural state. Therefore each time the engine is heated the casting expands a little more until it cracks somewhere. I suspect this accounts in part for dropped seats and cracks around the spark plugs.

For years I have used my casting oven to partially restore the heat treat of the heads. But according tot he engineers I've spoken to there is a limit to it effectiveness. And the results do not have the sustain that a fresh cating has.

I'm not trying to sell anyone on my decision or castigate anyone who works on used castings or has their used castings serviced. Heck I'm willing to sell the correct parts in a kit form to anyone who wants to have their heads rebuilt. I'm just moving forward with my business, and trying to educate folks that the writing is on the wall for our cars. The salvageable inventory of used heads has shrunk to an unsustainable point. Be prepared.

I think there can still be usable heads out there, sure... BUT the price to rebuild old heads properly is almost the price of the new heads mentioned. does that mean it's for everyone? no, but it should at least be considered.

I just had my heads redone for my engine build. new valves, guides, seats, etc. I was fortunate that they could be restored by a professional I trust. if he would have come to me and said "your heads can be repaired, but for $500 more you can have NEW heads..." I'd have damn sure thought about it. if he would have said they shouldn't be repaired again, I wouldn't have had to think twice about $500 more for new heads...

Just so happens that I am scrapping 50+ pair of core heads today!! Of that 50 pair I found TWO pair that looked like they could be worth doing something with.

Everything has a service life... I learned that from working with aircraft, whether or not its broken it still gets scrapped after XXX hours of operation.

hey Jake, Len how bout some head porn....

don't google that if you are at work, btw...

Unfortunately when a set of heads needed for an engine rebuild costs more than the price of a marginal car it means that car will be scrapped instead of getting rebuilt and put back on the road.

I think Rich has a good point. If anyone is interested in keeping cars from being crushed we should compile a list of the people who will still rebuild heads, starting with the names of shops mentioned in this thread.

.

Heck, thats the same thing thats happening with Boxsters and 996s.. They are being totaled daily due to engine failures that cost more than the car is worth.

the list is still a useful idea. I'll also see if Wes would be interested, though he usually custom tailors the heads to the engine he's building...

The list is a necessary item for reference. No matter what people will still be patching heads on these engines up for years.. kinda like a recapped truck tire.

Jake, I don't think that's a fair analogy. there are still heads out there that are usable, and there are still machine-work artists like Len, Mark, Wes, Adrian, etc. who can still make rebuilt heads work for rebuilt, extended-life engines for driver/cruiser or even racer applications. it might not be a perfect solution, but it is a real-world solution. and even if it's "only" $500 more for new heads... that $500 may be the breaking point over a engine budget that is already stretched thin... but I don't think they are the equivalent to a re-treaded truck tire.

What value can I place on a pair of Virgin NOS Type IV heads? They
are 1.8 castings 022 101 372G. They do not have seats, guides, or
valves. Bare naked still in cosmoline. Only hard core need inquire.

If you guy's want to start that List I have one: Cox Motrosports in Grandview Mo will rebuild your type 4 heads. 816-965-5800 Ask for Mikey,They are an HSR shop that deals mostly with 911s and 914s

unless your saying up until now you've been selling retread heads for big money. I doubt that's the case.

I have three chevy shops around here I have had do machine work for me. I have to bring them all the specs for the engine work I want done but they have a couple tools in their shops that can make new holes and install new parts and cut stuff.

I've had type IV heads done at one shop by a red haired gurl with glasses as thick as coke bottles but she never makes a mistake. EVER!

I've been talked into bringing a head for one of my BMW 2002's to a hi-po big money machine shop that builds record holding engines for drag cars. The head was returned shaved like a wedge! No shit! like a wedge! So noticable you could visably see the difference from the #1 cylinder to the #4 cylinder. I had to bring it up to the local chevy shop and beg the red haired gurl to fix it while staring at my shoes... I don't care what your rep is everyone has a bad day.

I brought my 928 heads to a highly recommended 928 porsche head guy. I drove 6 hrs to personally deliver my unobtainium euro "s" heads to him. The guy tried to trade me a set of low compression US spec heads with small valves and ports under the giess they were fresh off his race car... Do I have dumb ass written on my forehead? No thanks I just want MY heads done.

I was off talking to his assistant My wife was writting him a check for a down payment that was supposed to be 150.00. When we left she told me the check was 450.00.

Then the email came the cost to repair my heads was 1200.00.... sure you don't just want to trade me those junk heads for my race car heads?

I had them shipped back to me and brought them to the next highly recommended "Porsche machine shop guy" 180 miles from home. Heads were repaired freshed for 450.00.

I had a cam break and cause an engine failure. Broken valve punched through the head real bad. I was refered to a high end bling shop180 miles from home. I walked in and was stopped at the door and instructed to put my head in a cart next to the door by Mr. White gloves. This place would make the hospital look like the land fill! Leave the head and we will call you with an estimate. An hour later....ring... Ring.. Ya Rick this is Mr. White gloves.. Ya that head is going to cost $ 900.00 to fix.

Rick: did you measure the head to see if there is any room to cut it again?

Mr White Gloves: Measure it how do I measure it?

Rick: never mind I'll be back there in ten minutes to pick it up.

Head went to the chevy shop and was welded, new seats in the damaged chamber, dressed and matched to the other head, which BTW was discovered to be cut like a wedge by the "Porsche machinist" AS I stated even the best bling boys can have a bad day. That's twice... Chevy shop repaired my mangled head and matched "cc'd" the other head for..... drum roll please...... Price $ 350.00!

Here's the head. Just to show you there are guys out there that can still repair stuff. The stem is about 1 1/2" punched right through the hardened seat and through the water jacket into the port.

Click to view attachment

Sure they are... One of my customers is in that business and says that in some instances tires are reused by other companies that re-cap them 7-8 times before tossing the cores away.

One day when the service life is over they pop and leave remnants on the highway.. The same goes with a head, use it over and over again and one day it will fail. I've seen rebuilt heads come to my dyno on engines built by others that just wanted me to dyno them that didn't last ten minutes.

Its all in what you are looking for from the engine/ car. Luckily people value their cars more than they used to and want something that can be relied on. A large number of people we have dealt with also have explored other avenues, had problems/ failures and then came right on back for what they should have purchased the first time. They learned first hand that what is required, really is required.

I'll add to the list.. The only person who has ever impressed me with their work other than Len is Adrian at Headflow Masters. He won't do exceptional work and he is stuck in the 80s with component development and theory, BUT he does great head work that is very reliable. I have had a set of his heads on my 912E engine for 155K miles, when I sent them to him in 2001 one chamber had a hole blown completely through it. He repaired it and I have kept the engine running cool and its never given me a problem.

There's a market for the shiny new heads that should go on Jake's expensive powerhouse motors. His reputation is on the line and this is all he does. He can't and shouldn't gamble on used heads. Got that, check. Will one of his turn-key motors ever find its way into one my humble cars? Highly unlikely unless I sell my home and decide to live in a trailer. Well, something like that.

However there are those of us who have found that the used retreads (haha) have always worked good-as-new. My cars have always been my daily drivers too and I rack up a ton of hard miles on them. I've never hesitated to take them on 1000+ mile road trips and I've never had a head fail. Sure, heat cycling takes it's toll. Nobody is debating that either. $2K heads are likely always going to be more reliable than used heads. But by what percentage on a stock'ish motor? It's a gamble that I think most of us are willing to take when you have faith in your machinist and the design VW/Porsche made.

I don't think this discussion would be happening if we were seeing a lot of instances in the garage where motors were dying off due to head failures. If that were happening we'd all be lining up for new heads with me at the head of it. Failures happen from time to time, but it's simply not something that comes up very often. There's a LOT of us and we're all really good at complaining and wining when something goes wrong. We've got skills there.

I'll start the list. My name is Randy and my Type 4 machinist is:

Soren Andersen
468 Yolanda Avenue
Santa Rosa, CA 95404-6338
(707) 542-7872

.....SO what are the seat and valve sizes in the NEW ..LE and le180 heads?...are the valves OEM steel, or stainless steel?......

LE 180 heads have 42mm intake and 36mm exhaust valves.
Here is a flow chart from the LE 180 to include the port flow margin averages.


Here is a comparison between a LE 180 and a bone stock 914 2.0 head with the same valve sizes


I'd never use an OEM steel valve, these are only stainless steel. These exact valves are what we have turned over 8,500 RPM in our FP race engines for years and we have NEVER had a failure from them. Not once. Not ever.

Ouch!!!

I've had my eye on a set of LE 180's for some time now. Have them in my engine rebuild wish-list budget at $2058. Price has recently been jacked to $2558.

I was ready to blow my tax refund on a $2000 set, but $2500 is a big step up.

I can't afford an engine kit in one bite so I've been gathering parts piece by piece from Jake's store over the past two years. The heads were the most expensive and last thing I needed to buy.

I bought a Mallory from Jake, a week later he posts that they now suck and will discontinue selling them.

I bought a Shadek oil pump from Jake, a week later he posts they now suck and will discontinue using them.

This is the kind of luck I've been having trying to get my car up to snuff.

I was committed to spending the remaining few thousand dollars this year to get my three year money pit project completed.

When does the bleeding for these cars end?

Jake & Len if you are still watching, how about offering a group buy $2000 price for the LE 180's.

The price of the LE 180 heads will be changing in a few weeks. The work that Len and I are doing to the program will increase volumes and decrease prices a bit. The head castings went up in price and were virtually not available for 8 weeks last year and that heavily impacted our prices. We just used the last of that batch of "expensive" head castings and that alone will drop prices some. Prices vary based on what the current cost of the heads are for us to produce.

The Mallory dizzies had problems and still do, so I no longer sell them. I still use them in engines after we evaluate them and test the engines on the dyno and change out some of the parts inside them.

The Schadek oil pumps dropped in quality steadily all the way through 2008, finally in 2009 there were hardly any good ones left There wasn't enough to support counter sales and our turn key program, so I discontinued them and kept what we had for turn keys.

Now a few months later we have a full billet oil pump developed and fully tested. We just finished a production run last week. Its bad ass and just a taste of whats to come. Sometimes when parts turn crappy or vendors screw us over the following benefits from it. I recently got stabbed in the back by a vendor and trust me, the following will benefit from that situation in at least 1/2 dozen ways.
We have to have good parts to build our engines and we may as well sell them. Thats why I started the Type 4 Store in 2005!
Click to view attachment

Well i am going to get ready to be blasted for this one....but here goes
at these prices it is far cheaper to put an old 3.0 sc engine in, including all parts and pieces....2000 bucks ports, polishes twin plugs those heads, but a rebuild is not for the faint of heart either, and may come soon on an old three
so if you have your heart set on running a four, cough up the cash for a good set of heads.....this is one area i would not skimp on
and if you are running an old car like a 914 it just doesn't end...the bleeding continues.......and continues
but there is a solution ...buy a miata

No thrashing from me... Of course you can put a six and if you want to, then you should.

But why buy a Miata when you can buy a Boxster for the same price?

Because, as you said earlier, those Boxsters are being crushed because people can't afford the engine rebuilds.

So gonna be more and more rollers for sale. And the WRX conversion isn't just more fun, as it turns out it makes sense and is actually frugal. Damn, I never saw that coming. Better option than giving up and crushing the car, that's for sure.

.

Wanna put a WRX engine in the car? Fine, do it.. My days of giving a damn about that are over and have been.

Not all Boxster are being junked when they have an engine failure.. Porsche enthusiasts that can afford to repair the engines are scooping them up and building bad ass track cars from them.. One bought a Boxster S with a blown engine (44K miles) for 3,500 bucks! My point is that modern cars are also being scrapped because their engines cost more to build than the car is generally worth, just like another poster said could happen to the 914.

There will always be a group that want to keep the original appeal of the car and they'll spend what is required to do that, even if it means less power than a conversion or even more maintenance. I just talked on the phone this evening to three of those people, all of which secured a spot in line for a turn key engine for their 914.

I dunno... I kind of appreciate what Len and Jake are doing now.


..and I also appreciate the few machinists that will now be able to step up and fill a void that has now opened up from their progression.


has the OP found a machinist to do his heads? Has he been able to acquire the parts to put his heads back together? Len mentioned he has them.

Seems like a win-win situation. New head development, new jobs opening for other machinists w/out the fierce competition from someone with such good reputation. It now gives someone else to develop their reputation in that area, while Len creates NEW stuff for the people that want NEW stuff.

so I say again, I kind of appreciate what Len and Jake are doing.

Jake,

Tell it like it is... that's how I LIKE IT TOO... I RESPECT that vs the other method .

If I had the $ right now.. I'd buy all my engine parts from you- especially when you back it up too.

You get what you pay for.

I appreciate it too, and no disrespect was expressed or intended. It is what it is, but $2500 just for heads will put a kink in a lot of budgets. That's three times the price of a rebuild from just a few years ago. Which means that other less attractive alternatives are going to be considered, and one will be the crusher. Who knows, with the thinning of the herd maybe those predictions of 356 style price appreciation will actually come to pass.

I have a watercooled turbo V6 in my 914. It's getting twin turbo'd and bored and stroked. There's no way I could get the hp numbers that I'm after out of a type 4.


I still appreciate what Jake and Len are doing. When I get my first $mil... one of my celebratory purchases will be a fun cruiser that's Jake-powered.

I don't know... If increasing repair costs caused cars to appreciate in value, wouldn't used boxters be appreciating. I don't buy the 914 (914-6 not included) being the next 356. If it was then someone would be going around buying the hundreds of teeners for sale ~$1-2K. Even nice 914's don't sell for a whole lot more than when I bought mine 26 years ago. I don't care what mine is worth because it was my first car and I will never sell it.

I talked to Jake last Wed and I'm just about to pull the trigger. I'm sold on the motor, I just want to make sure I have the money to set aside and not miss/need it later. Even after new parts, labor, paint, motor, ect, ect it will still cost les than a Prius.

Everything has increased in price over that past few years.. Last year some head castings tripled in price. Now we are having a global shortage on align bore main bearings with some sets selling for 6 times what they did last year, IF you can find them.

And its only going to get worse. Before long the OE supplies will not be around because the demand is so low that the OE manufacturers have no reason to produce, or the quality falls through the floor. This is what happened with the Schadek oil pumps.

Over time we'll have to make every part for the engine, else it won't be available. Thats why I have added another building to our shop compound and will be setting it up specifically for on-premises manufacturing specifically for our programs.

This year my engines are 1,000.00 more than they were two years ago, yet we are netting LESS from them and they are taking longer to produce and evaluate correctly.

This is the best informative post on 914-World in a long time.

Jake is 100% correct about low volume OE supplies in short supply. My company works in the Power & Utility industry replacing & repairing large industrial turbines, boilers & component machinery. I spend a lot of my time working with clients scheduling part replacements that used to be in stock. Now decllining supplier base delivery is 12-16 weeks if it's available. Prices and availability of quality parts is changing, so get used to it. Find someone you trust and pay the price!! I believe Jake, Len and others we know work in about the top 1% of the supplier base we trust in all air cooled motor land. We need them as much as they need us. My advise, long term planning is a must and the project always costs 50% to 100% more than you planned. It happened to me on my simple camshaft replacement. I estimated $3K and it came in at $5K. Ouch, It was like do I need it?? No, but I don't want to compromise quality in my hobby. My choice was new heads or use my old heads that were perfectely usable to meet my budget.

Tom

another problem that greatly influences cost on our beloved 914 is that 35+ yr old 914s have other hidden issues that only surface once you "crack that nut". just like what Jake was talking about with the used head castings. you have to get ALL-IN before you really know what needs fixin. its hard for me to plan shop loading and forecast completion dates. one car was suposed to leave a week ago untill we found more issues that need help. Hell, I cant even put it back together as is... even if I would do such a thing. there is alot of non billable time that goes into solving these problems. alot of phone calls, explaining to customers, time invested to solve things and find solutions. when a Boxter comes in, I just pick up the phone and order parts, install them and out she goes. I struggle with the same thoughts that drove Len to change his policies. these cars are more troublesome, require more hand holding, explaining and teh profit is way less than the modern cars. I cant remember the last time a 911, 993, 996 owner asked me...but can you do it cheaper?

I guess what i meant to say is that economic viability is putting a squeeze on our 914

The economy hasn't impacted us at all when it comes to sales... I have the biggest demand that we've had since 2002 and for that I am very happy. The economy has impacted us indirectly when it comes to sourcing parts. This is due to many suppliers not keeping enough (or any) of the parts we use on the shelf due to cash flow.

Last year we had the biggest demand ever but we produced less engines than we did the two years prior, yet we produced the least amount of engines die to the parts situation primarily.

This also put our engine kit program in the gutter because we only had X amount of parts and due to that engine kits suffered extended wait times as the turn key program takes priority. The engine kit program is currently on hold while we work away the turn key backlog and allow the suppliers to build their supplies. During this time we are making a ton of changes to the kit program to stream line it and integrating our own in-house produced items.

I just dropped mine off with Jan Norris. His shop is close to DC at Kenelworth Ave and HWY 50.
Precision Engine Machine 301-779-5808
precision-engine.com

I had sent an email to Rimco asking if they were under new management. I also stated that I has sent a pair of heads to them about 2 yrs. ago and I had to shell out and additional 200 buks to have the valve seats redone by a local.

This is the reply I received.

Jim,

Thank you for your e-mail inquiry. I would like to start by saying sorry for
the inconvenience in your previous order. At RIMCO we have changed a few
things for the better. We have quality procedures in place to minimize
errors going out to our customers. We have added Customer Service steps to
HOPEFULLY help our customers experience. We have added several parts
companies to allow us to increase our products to our customers. We are now
warehouse direct distributors for Bugpack, Empi, Scat, IAP, LAT Oils,
Genuine VW and many more. With this we can offer parts to our customers that
send us service jobs and ship them all at once at a reduced price compared
to ordering with separate companies.


Feel free to call or e-mail any time. You can also check our site out at
www.rimcovw.com
I will add your e-mail address to our e-mail list for future savings.



Again thank you for looking us up again,

Dennis Hildebrandt
714-549-0357

If you call Rimco, just talk to Todd... I've known him for years and he has never screwed up any aspect of what Rimco has worked on for me over the years. When I was in California in the early 90s Todd processed over 300 engine cases for me to build engines out of my barracks room at Tustin MCAS, less than 2 miles away :-)

Todd is still there... He runs the show.

strat: did you give rimc opportunity to make it right? what did they say?