I just got a email from Len Hoffman today. He is focused on producing new Heads, not rebuilding used ones anymore

Every time i do a search, it always leads to LEN. Who can I send my 2.0 heads to now?? I need to get on this 2056 build.

any other recomendations???

Call Bug World in Yoe. The guy is back working more or less full time I think, now that the harley plant is closing. If he won't do them, he will be able to suggest someone who can, maybe even someone local.

I think someone mentioned FAT doing them as well.

Zach

Problem I got was guys wanting the work done then whining about the price to do the job right.

The other issue for me is I'm in Canada, adding another $60-$80 to the shipping. Plus there's just not a enough work to leave equipment set-up for just VW heads.
To me it's just not worth it.

I think this outfit is under new managment. Good Luck, Toll free # to call on the site..

http://rimcovw.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=141_149_191

you can call lyle cherry (I don't have his #, but it's on the interwebs) down here in Dallas area, but he wasn't cheap, either... $600 for both, IIRC? for a stock rebuild. I've heard mixed reviews of RIMCO's work, but if they are under new mgmt...

KAWELL RACING.....This guy is legendary in the world of VW Engines. When you call you get him. Be prepared to be on the phone a while he loves this stuff and will talk your head off with any info you want.

RIMCOVW......This place is also a go to place for machine services of vw engines.

I've used both in the past and have never had a problem.

I think last year I heard that RIMCO was no onger doing VW heads. The price sheet that was posted seems to indicate otherwise, though. Give them a call, Joe. They have been doing heads for ages, and they look well priced. You will need to tell them what you want, though (bigger valves, fly cutting, etc.) Might be worth while to have a talk with Jake about your engine design (assuming you are getting parts through him) and ask what he would have done. If you buy a cam kit through his shop, they will be happy to guide you on the best configuration for it.

Zach

Rimco does good seat installations but not finish work.
The only person I have found to do work worth a hoot on used castings is Adrian at Headflow Masters, but don't expect anything other than standard work even on ports.

Used castings are getting older and older every day, I can't believe it took Len as long as it did to pull the plug on used casting work. I've been 100% new castings since 2004 and never looked back.

Between cracked castings, stripped exhaust studs, stripped plug holes and "idiot modifications" the days of producing a top quality. Set of heads from used castings are over.

Do yourself a favor and buy new heads from Jake, for the extra cost you get
NEW heads !! Thats what I did, no more waiting for a valve failure and they flow better.

I would recommend Len over anyone, but if he isn't doing it then call Jay at Jay's Precision Machine in San Jose, (408) 980-0743.

He has the time (now) and does great work.

Talk to Dan Thompson for recommendations.

And if you have any questions or want help there are a bunch of us 914 guys here in Silicon Valley that can be a source for you.

European Motor Works in Hawthorne, CA. Jorge can do it.

I would agree. Jay did all of the machine work on my 2.0 build. He has been working on VW & Porsche heads for over 30 years and seems to know what he is doing.

Not well known but Jay does most of Jerry Wood's machining work. I can send you a picture of my (trick) 2.0 heads that he did, after Jake sent me the dual springs and matching fuel injection cam.

Al Johnsen at AJRS ((970) 245-8685) here in Colorado. He is fairly booked up for the winter though from what I hear.

That sucks.

So does that mean Len won't do work on virgin NOS factory heads?

I might have come into a set. Won't know for sure untill I pull them off the engine but from all that I can see from under the engine, it appears true.

Ken

Walt Watson, Competition Engineering, Lake Isabella, CA
Engine Machine Service, Inglewood, CA

I've used both for decades (CE since 1973, EMS since 1985). Both are as good as they come. If you're a CSOB, please don't bother them ............

The Cap'n

Just for the sake of asking, what is the cost for a stock set of "new" head castings with a standard valve job?

No thick shit just stock heads ready to bolt on.

I just checked Autohausaz.com for 2.0 Bus heads. On sale right now for $426 EACH. They would make good cores and I am not sure they would be acceptable to Len but that is what he used for my LE 180 heads.

We buy new castings and then totally strip them of all their hardware to produce the RS and LE series heads. New heads have great castings but horrible hardware and machining. We have a 55 gallon drum full of stripped new junk parts to sell to one of the mass producers soon...

A new off the shelf head is certainly not the answer.
The only new heads Len works with are for my program. Even if you supplied him new cores and if he were to do the work on them they'd still cost more than a set of RS or LE heads.

In January 2008 I purchased a pair of Leading Edge 180" CNC 2.0 Replica 914 #7506 new heads with the (3) stud intake pattern for just a little over $2K. Prices have probably gone up a little with cost increases.

I am extremely satisified with the heads and my Raby #9550 cam & misc stuff for my recent camshaft replacement. I learned pay now or pay lots later when the old equipment with 30-plus years of heat cycling fails.

BTW: Everything was purchased through Mr. Raby with his recommendations. Happy customer.

Tom

Sorry to drop this bomb on you guys! It has been coming for a while now.

I've watched as the quality of the used cores has just steadily gone down hill. I can no longer accurately forecast turnaround for used heads and that effects every order that I have in the shop. With the increase in 986/996 head work, (which is easy to forecast turn-around on) and the success of our program based on new heads it has become detrimental to my business to keep offering remanufacturing of used castings. I just never know what I'm going to find with the darn things! Most of the heads that I see these days have been through the hands of another shop, usually a hack. Some of the mutilation can't be undone.

I know that most, if not all of the folks on this forum are hard working people with not a lot of money to spend on their toy. Jake and I are going to do everything we can to keep prices affordable and we will be offering a basic package that will sell for not a hell of a lot more than the cost to reman used heads.

For folks who want to find a shop to work over their used heads I will be selling a rebuild kit. It will come with everything that I used to rebuild these heads. Valves, springs, retainers, guides, valve seats, ground keepers and HD rocker studs. The price will reasonable and at least you'll know you're getting good stuff.

I should also point out to anyone who currently has used heads in my shop I will be completing those orders as agreed. But once they are done it will be new only.

I do understand where you are comming from, and I would love to get a set of new Heads, I just need to save up a bit more.

Thanks for all that you have done for us,

I am interested in the kit, if you could direct my heads to meet your kit in the hands of the right person.

Joseph

FAT Performance in Santa Ana, CA.

Just be sure to give them SPECIFICS on what you want.

Ollie's down here used to do them. They would take a LOT of convincing to touch a pair of Porsche 2L heads.

So are you saying a basic set of new heads for a stock 2.0 are $ 2000.00? No frills no porting, just good hardware and seats?

Rick,

Here's a photo of the heads I purchased from Raby & supplied by Len back in 2008 per my post. In my opinion a lot of modifications & upgrades were included from the basic stock castings. It was all on Raby's website when I purchased & fully explained.

Tom

I guess my question is do they have to cost $ 2000.00?

Are there no head sources now other than getting completely modified $ 2000.00 heads?

Your heads look nice Tom but what if you just want to freshen a 2.0 with stock parts?

My question still is what does it cost for a set of new no frills heads?

The heads are AMC heads made for a bus engine, Len changes the valves and
seats, installed heavy duty valve springs, and retainers and cleans them up as far as I know.

Len or Jake can give you a better answer as to what is done.

Rick & 904svo,

This is not intended to discourage anyone from buying Len's heads, but you are correct they are AMC Buss heads cast in Spain. I didn't test the metallurgy when I had a chance, but assume it's the same or better because it's new. My engine guy Primo Petrucci said the basic heads cost under $500 bucks than you have to do the modifications that Len performs. Labor is money & that's what you pay for confidence in the product & builder. I looked into my file and can't find the AMC price list, but did find an ad for a set of performance type 4 part # 039.101..061MHP heads SCAD @ $1,640.00 Canada ($1,623.00 U.S.) dated 6/26/2008 on a web site www.germansupply.com Manufactured in Canada by germansupply. This stuff can also be found in the VW books. My engine builder is also one of the best out there, Primo Petrucci (Farmington Hill, MI. ph# 248-474-5007) and his head rebuilds go for around $500 to $800 each (done right), so you can see that a pair of NEW heads @ $2k is worth it.

I agree Len is the leader in Type-4 Porsche Head technology along with Jake Raby's team effort & I strongly recommend them. The quality was there!!!

Tom

www.germansupply.com is just a small reseller here in Canada, maybe a little bigger than myself and I know Scott doesn't even own a mill. They do have a web site.
I wouldn't say AMC castings are better, but they are new so no exhaust studs or head cracks to deal with.

I have a set that I wanted $1600pr finished and shipped. My cost new stainless steel Si valves $100, new guides $40, dual springs, $45, retainers, $35 keepers $15, seats $24, studs $40, rocker studs $40, so that makes $250 in new parts, cores cost me $500
Plus a crap load of labour and the cost of the tooling.
Lucky for me they are built on crack free Canadian cores so no welding.

I've had them for sale here at $1600 finished, even less when I was after my 3.0 engine, but I've decieded to keep them as spares (for my bug) rather than give them away.
I have another core set that are totally perfect, I would want $800 for those cores, but again if I have to give them away they stay in my stash.

Just saying when and if someone is crying over the price....

Yes, they DO have to cost that much.. The cost of the new AMC heads has gone up since the major importer of them went out of business last year. Others are still working from their old stocks (because they do not use as many of the heads as we do) and they have not experienced the cost increases yet. They sill see the increases when they replenish their stocks over time..

These heads have all updated hardware to include valve seats that Len has the absolute best process for installing with high reliability and longevity. We've used these heads on all sorts of engines and have the LE series heads performing all over the world.

A set of them is being used to travel from the southern tip of Africa to the northern tip in just a few months, those same heads have already gone from Amsterdam to Beijing China last summer for the Olympics and saw ambient temps of 130F+ with every extreme condition on the planet being encountered.

On top of the work that Len does comes the CNC procedures on the LE series heads which adds to the cost as well. we started the CNC program in 2005 and these heads have remained the only truly developed CNC offering in the TIV corner of the industry. The CNC procedures give exacting chamber volumes and shapes as well as closely matched intake and exhaust ports. That accuracy breeds power and a smooth running engine with great combustion balance.

Since Len has done away with the rebuilding of core castings he and I have agreed to bring back an older non CNC offering that will fill the void that was left by his decision not to rebuild heads any longer. These heads are more cost effective than any current offering because they can be more heavily produced by Len and can have a near immediate turn around time. They'll be useful for all engines up to 2056cc with up to 130HP of output possible.

Most people have heads that they think are perfect. When Len or I see them we start noting all the shoddy repairs and casting flaws they have and the price quickly skyrockets. The average price for rebuilding a pair of customer supplied cores is 1,000-1600.00 and thats to rebuild a set of cores that saw their best days in the 1980s. Consider that and the cost of a new pair of heads with exceptional hardware and labor based on new castings starts to look like the best return on the investment- because it is.

You'll never read of an LE series head having a failure, because it doesn't happen. Attaining that level of superiority doesn't come at a cheap price.

Mark's heads sound like a great deal at 1600 bucks and I have seen his work in person... The price is about normal for that much work into a set of OE cores.

Adrian Audirac - Headflow Masters, here in North County San Diego (Vista), is who I was going to recommend. My friends in the buggy community have been using him for years for hipo TI and TIV builds. The heads on my McMark 2056 are from him. When I picked up my motor from Mark, and I asked him who did the heads, I was surprised to hear him say Adrian at Headflow Masters. I always considered him good, but didn't realize he had that much of a following... Even Jake gives him an honorable mention.

Headflow Masters - 760.727.1827

Thanks Jake. That's the info I was looking for. It was looking like the only option moving forward would be hi-end CNC dressed bling. There seemed to be a gap from having your local chevy machine shop weld and repair your old cracked heads and buying overkill for an engine that will either be put into daily service or see more garage time than a garden rake in winter. There is a difference between being a CSOB and having a practical threshhold for a hobby.

I'm really into what you and Len do. I can see where you are going and want to go in your evolution.


So... back to my original question. How much are a set a cookie cutter heads going to cost.

No prices will be posted by Jake or I on this forum. That is out of respect for the forum itself. This is a pace for entusiast to swap info and talk about their passion ( it's mine too! I race a 914 and love the cars!). Even though I own a business that services this niche, I would hate to see it get commercialized to the extent that businesses are quoting prices back and forth.
Jake is my distributor. Please contact him for head prices, or me for head rebuilders kit prices.
This is a link to Jakes store.
www.type4store.com
This is a link to my site.
www.haminc.biz

Respectful and with class.... a lesson could be taken by...ahem...other....people, who seem to think this forum is their personal solicitation area for their business.

Here's what I charged.
Cost per head would be a low of $150-200 for a simple regrind of the valves, some guides (but not all), cut the seats, clean it up and slap the old hardware and valves back on.
Or to full stud and seat repairs, welding, flycutting, porting, blending, cut for dual springs, shim the springs, parts, etc and I'd say about $800.

That's a good approximate going price per each head.

Now for a brief introduction to the AMC castings. They are FAAARRR superior to older castings as they have not been heat cycled a gozillion times over the past 35+ years. And that's not the end of the advantages. The AMC castings are stronger with more material in the ex port area.

Now for a not so brief intro into some of the quirks of the T4 head design.

All T4 heads are weakest in the ex port area. If you can put your hands on a T4 head look into the ex port from the outlet side. Notice that it cuts directly beneath the combustion chamber. Also make note of how ~ 1/3 of the seat is supported by about 1/4" of aluminum and hangs out over the port itself. This is the hottest area of the head as well as the skimpiest area of the head with regard to material. Under heat and pressure the casting droops down into the port. You can't see it, but when you re-cut the valve seats it is obvious. It is a well established fact that the AMC heads hold a valve job better than the old O.E. castings. Between heat cycle fatique and less material the older heads just don't withstand the rigors of even mild performance engines with any degree of consistency. Some hold up well and were obviously lower milage cores, while others turn to putty pretty damn quickly.

All T4 heads, it doesn't matter if it's a new AMC or older O.E. will develop some leakdown past the valves over time. The hotter they run the sooner it will happen. Gotta love the aircooled engines! The difference is that the AMC heads hold the valve job longer and when they do start to see leakage it is not of a degree that is consequential, unless the heads are over heated. Remember, aluminum melts at around 1450*'s and it gets extremely soft at 1200*, which is the ball park of the optimum full throttle EGT for power. Run you EGT's up and you will develop ex valve leakage. [/i]Fortunately the leakage doesn't hurt power or reliability;proved that on the dyno and track. Our House prepped 1.8 race heads based on O.E. castings /SCCA rules start out with 0 leak down around the valves and end up with 30% around the ex valves! We live with it because it doesn't hurt power and there just isn't a damn thing we can do about it.

Please understand that I sympathize with owners who want to build an engine on a budget and aren't looking for anything more than stock performance. I know it's tough to swallow the cost of a new pair of heads. But there is a harsh reality to be dealt with; on average the cores that I have been seeing for the past year or so have ranged in quality from junk to marginal, with occasional cherries. I just can't run my business with an inconsistent core supply, hence the move.

When I look at Jake's type4store head pricing, is the price listed per head, or is it for a pair of heads?

Eric

Always per pair.

with Mark's estimates being around 800/head for rebuilding(similar to other places I know of, btw) 2000 for a pair of new heads does not seem unreasonable at all. especially with the peace of mind that comes from knowing the weakest part of the original engine is now very strong and reliable.

I'm sure RIMCO and other shops are cheaper, but you might have to get them done again in a few years, or in a few years they may be trash... meaning that money bought you a little time before having to spend $ on proper heads or proper head work from Len, Adrian, or Mark or someone else you really trust. trust and quality are not cheap tho... I know from experience

This is a fascinating thread to me. I planned to do a GA rebuild in the late summer and the amount of data and research on this topic and the expertise of Jake/Len has me very confident of building a great new, engine. The costs have me a little nervous, but I will adapt to that <g/>

Larouex

Whew!

That really scared me for a minute...

Looks like I'll be investing in a set of new heads this spring.

Eric

There are still usable used 2.0 castings out there. Sure, some need work, but that's always been the case with the 2.0 heads. My local machinist (a very close friend) has been working with Porsche and VW aircooled heads for the better part of my life and I trust him to be able to look at my parts and determine if they're destined for the scrap pile or if they have life left in them.

I understand that it's usually easier and likely more rewarding for the machinist to work with a clean new casting, but can someone explain why the old castings are ticking time bombs? I can see that a head that's been surfaced or rebuilt too many times simply can't be rebuilt to spec and should be considered scrap, but an unmolested head can be reliably rebuilt.

There are a lot of air cooled cars that are much older than 914s that are still running around reliably on the road with original heads castings. The cost of new heads takes the FUN out of rebuilding a T4 motor. Compared to the cost of what the cars are going for, it just doesn't add up to spend 2k for T4 heads. Obviously that's my opinion, but I'm sticking to it. This car has many lures and the fact that it's still relatively inexpensive to work on is one of the bigger ones.

My 2 cents,

I'd also like to point out that I've never had a head issue with the numerous daily drivers that I've had over the past decade. I don't exactly baby my cars either.

Randy,

Throwing the baby out with the bath water isn't an otion for many of us. Some of these cars only see the road 8-10 times a year. (around here any way..) Spending $ 2000.00 for heads on a fun car that will run and function when you want to make a weekend run doesn't make practical sense in my book.

Rust repair, suspension and brake repairs and sorting out electrical issues and F.I. stuff is enough of a wet blanket.

Because they have been heat cycled millions of times, overheated thousands of times and generally have had very little attention from anyone that has a clue about the TIV engine since they were new.

When I went to 100% new heads 6 years ago it had NOTHING to do with how clean or dirty the heads were or what was easier to work with. I based it on the fact that we were using the most critical, hottest running portion of the engine and asking it to perform in even a more demanding fashion three decades after it was new.

Replacing and updating all the components around the heads but not replacing their castings didn't make much sense to me and it still doesn't. It was a different story when the cars were only a few years old, maybe two decades old, but now most every head has a crack, has been on an engine thats blown up, has stripped exhaust studs or broken fins.


I once heard Len tell someone "If I had a dollar for every virgin TIV head I have encountered I couldn't even buy a sandwich with the money". That is very true and I'll say the same thing. In the majority of situations heads are thought to be good but once they are stripped, cleaned and have a trained eye check them out the story is generally much different.


How many of those engines are still producing the original amount of power they did when new? How many are making 50% more power? How many are being asked to participate in endurance style competition with elevated head temps? How many are being applied to engines that are not perfectly tuned?



But that cost is required if you want to make the engine worthy of any type of expenditure. Some things in life are required. Spend the money now or spend more money and waste more time later.


Tell that to the 44 people that made the leap last year and purchased these heads. In fact over time the amount of 914 enthusiasts that are willing to spend this amount of money for proper cylinder heads has increased over the past few years. In times past our conversion engines and sales have been higher than 914, but now the 914 is finally seeing the investment that it deserves.


These engines and cars aren't inexpensive to work with.. You can restore a Corvette for less than a 914 done properly.

Thats my 2 cents and I live, eat and breathe these cars and engines and have for the past two decades.

As Len and I have stated, since his desire to rebuild core heads has gone away we are working toward the ability to provide higher volumes of production heads developed for lower performance/ stockish engines for less money. The volume of sales we have will determine just how much these new offerings will sale for. At the same time we are working to keep these units IN STOCK for immediate delivery and that will be implemented some time in the spring.

Its pretty simple.. If you want a car to look pretty and you don't plan on driving it then the expenditure for a properly outfitted engine is less of a concern. I don't know many people that have a 914 for any other reason than to drive it. Our goal is to produce engines, components and sub-systems that allow the vintage car to be driven EVERY DAY in any climate and be effective. We also don't recommend that our purchasers have AAA coverage to cover their break downs, because they won't be needing it.

Both Randy and Jake make good points, but don't forget... even the lowly 914 has raped owners for decades when it comes to parts cost and upkeep.

Rob, I agree, but I would say 'surprised', not 'raped'.