What is your resource for information regarding the early engines? I'm looking at anything from 2.0-3.2. I want to know what are the good parts to look for; cases and heads in particular. Also what parts are interchangeable. Is there some 'one-stop-shop' place where they break down all this info. -6 newbie in the planning stages here.
Mark D.

Having just driven my first six (thanks Wills!) ... a COTM winner and very sorted 3.2.....I can just say... you want one!

Rant over.....

yup bang for your bucks 3.2

I got a 2.7L race motor that would be the hot ticket! Even have all the conversion parts.

-Britain

sorry britain, good deal in classifieds

Haha.. I know that all too well, Britain. Take a wild guess which class I have in mind. However, the phrase 'planning stages' means I'm too broke for that right now. Good luck with the sale, though.
How about this question. Anyone know if you can put a 2.7 crank in a 3.0/3.2 case?
Mark D.

When it comes down to it, there's not a huge difference rebuilding a 2.0 six as a 3.2, one caveat would be the pistons & cylinders though. So get the biggest, newest engine you can afford.

I wouldn't get anything less than a 3.0, and hold out for a Motronic 3.2 if I could. But I wouldn't go for a 3.6, as it's a much more involved conversion. That doesn't mean you might not fall into a deal on anything else though. Plenty of guys are upgrading to larger engines, so good used ones are out there.

Good advice is available on this site, but there's a wee bit of BS too, so due dilligence is required.

No, different flywheel flange.

Engine selection may depend on what you want to do with the car. I want to do vintage racing so my track car will be a small bore /6 per the rules. If I weren't doing the vintage thing, I would opt for a 3.2 hands down.

Get Bruce Anderson's 911 Performance Handbook. It walks you through engines and engine developement in chronological order. And... it gives you an engine chart that tells the years, case numbers, displacement etc. There's more... just buy that book and you'll be on your way.

The engine would be built to a class, and it would be a punched out 2.7. So I know the dimensions I want to run. I just want to know the best parts to accomplish that. What parts to use. What parts to avoid. Thanks for the info, guys. Keep the advice comin'.
Mark D.

Also if you are going to build an engine to class, my suggestion is to hunt for an early aluminum 2.0 Case. They are getting expensive ($1,200 - $2,500 just for the case). They are heavier, but aluminum is stronger than magnesium especially when they are 40 years old. Mag gets brittle and when pushed to the limit breaks. This has just been coming more common in the last few years. I have had Mag cases with no problems, but my newest motor is a 2.8 Twin-Plug built on a Aluminum case.

T.C.

If you're going to use a 2.7, also get Wayne Dempsey's book on rebuilding a 911 engine, as he goes through things step by step. A well built and running 2.7 is a great motor, but not easy or cheap to achieve. I'd agree with the others that a 3.2 with motronic is a great way to go (after the valve guides have been redone). All these engines have some issues, but the fixes are well known by now.

I'd definitely get both books and do my homework before you spend dollar one on actual parts.

I agree with the B. Anderson book bit. There is more information than my head would accept in one or two readings. Advantages/disadvntages of all the 911 motors, interchangeability, blows some myths....yada. Gud stuff.

The early 3.0 turbo engine, or the european carrera engine used the 2.7 crankshaft. It was a six bolt crank, all the USA 3.0 SC or 3.2 Carrera engines cases use a 9 bolt crank (flange where the clutch attaches) so basically no a 2.7 crank will not work. Those two cases I mentioned are very rare and expensive if you can locate one to buy. Problem with the magnesium engine cases they are so old that the require so much work from the machine shop to use it almost becomes cost prohibitive at this point. Much cheaper to build off a 3.0 or 3.2 case even if you are going to run carbs. Jim

I built the engine in Brit's car.
The total bill for case work was just over $500 including:
Case savers
Drag hone of the mains **
Mag & polish the crank
Deck & square the spigots

** If the main bores are not straight/true enough for a drag hone, shit can it & find another one that is. The drag hone allows std/std bearings. Every mag case I've disassembleld was narrow across the case split at the main bores.

The 76 & later have the oiling up grades & larger scavenge section oil pump.
These are preferable.

The key to longevity of any mag case motor is keeping it cool. An aux oil cooler is a must, IMO. It seldom saw 100C (212F) and never an appreciable amount over that. Ignore this at your own risk.

The engine was stone reliable for 7 seasons then rebuilt as it was getting tired (scored cylinders probably from not getting it up to proper opperating temp before pounding on it....or the fer shit rings that came with the pistons). The bearings were fine as frog hair.

You want to spend some money at your machine shop? Get an early aluminum case. They need piston squirters, oil pump & mods,& layshaft boring for inserts.....that's about $3K or more over the price of the case..and for what? A marginal strength increase? Your machinist will love you.

Depends on budget as well. You've listed a pretty variable range of engines which have a pretty variable range of prices.

I haven't looked in a few years, 'cause I can't afford one, so why bother. But use to be the early stuff was pretty good deals.

2.0T - non CW crank, cheap
2.0E or S - don't bother, collectors want them

2.2 or 2.4T's - really good deals, lots-o-torque

2.7's - anything used pretty much needs rebuilding unless you KNOW where it came from

3.0's - Good deal for money usually.

3.2's - Best bang for buck, PITA to wire up the FI and buy extra conversion parts to make it work in the 914.

2.0 - 2.7 are the easiest to slap on carbs, bolt on and go.

3.0's require a different flywheel.

You could range (I wager) from $2k-$10k for any of the listed above.

So depends on your budget.

To me if you're going to the expense of an aluminum case why not just buy a 3.0> to start with.

Not to hijack the thread, but will stock 914 exchangers work with a 3.0 6?

Hmm, Stock 914-6 heat exchangers?

They should be the right spacing for the exhaust ports, but they will be rather small for a 3.0l displacement.

Yes, they will work, but you will lose about 10hp to the exhaust restriction. And you have to replace the studs in the heads because they are the wrong length.

Thanks.
-Rob

Once you start adding it all up, you will find that my 2.7L motor is a killer deal.

-Britain

Good thing there is no shameless plug on this thread!

Seriously, I am off to find this engine as we are in the market as well!

Britain,
I would LOVE to have your motor. I could even drive up and get it, BUT I dont have thaty kind of cash that the wife will let me spend. I am slowly gathering my parts and hopefully by the end of the world, in 2012, I will have a "6".

Our car Huey has been through it all:

2.0
2.2
back to 2.0
2.5
2.7
now 3.2 Motronic

If I had to do it all over again, I would have just gone for the 3.2. We absolutely love it, it makes driving a 914 soooo much more enjoyable than. You get that feeling that this is the way it was suppose to be.

Once we converted the car to take a 6, each of the engine changes was fairly simple. All were carbs until the 3.2.

The only change with the 3.2 was a little wiring, the flywheel conversion/clutch from Patrick Motorsports, and changing the air filter. Otherwise, everything else just bolted up.

Now...if you are planning to race, AX, or do anything competitive, you may want to rethink that. First, pick the class you want, then get the best engine you can for that class. In our case, we ran Targa Newfoundland originally and the biggest we could go was the 2.2 engine. Our second year, we went back to the 2.0 to move down a class. After we wrecked and rebuilt, we decided to go with what we wanted for the street, not for a race class. Then came the 2.5 years of engine swapping till the 3.2. We're done!!

Exactly the same boat I'm in...good luck with your search as well.

Well, it might be a little bit of a shameless plug...but seriously when you starting adding things together, you will find that buying a built motor is very cost effective.

Here is a link to my engine: 2.7L HotRod Engine for Sale

As for the engine size, all the SCCA AX classes are made using a weight multiplier based on engine displacement. The 3.2L engine makes for a heavier car.

-Britain

No doubt, and the "shameless plug" was just a for fun!

As for your engine, I'd love to have it, BUT it is too much money right now (like others here).

And a long way to ship for us EastCoasters

Mark,
it sounds like you already have a map laid out in your head about where you want to use the car.

I can't say this strongly enough... if you intend to race the car. Figure out your class and the rules first... then build/buy the motor.

since you seem to know your class already, why not share your final goal with people and then gather advice to build the best motor that fits that class.....

brant

1. Because I'm very competitive and don't want to show my cards to somebody with the resources to knock this thing out in six months.

2. Because when you tell people your idea, there's usually a whole line of naysayers who want to tell you that it's a bad idea entirely, instead of telling you the best way to go about it. At least I get that a lot. Maybe I'm just full of bad ideas.

I just want a general idea of advantages and disadvantages of different parts and I'll decide which ones to use. However, I will tell you it's basically a 2.8 twin plug designed to run in the F Prepared class of solo 2. 3.0 or 3.2 is outlawed in FP. I think that would put me in XP.
Britain, I am certainly a big fan of your engine but, for starters, I'm financially nowhere close to making this a reality. It's just a daydream right now. I've still got to build my 2 liter DP motor and see how well that works for me. Plus, although I do think your 2.7 would be a great start, you yourself said that it's underpowered for the class (though I don't think by much). The idea is to stomp FP and to prove to certain people that the 914-6's day isn't done.
Allow me to wrap this up with another couple questions. Any reason that a 3.0 or 3.2 head can't be fitted to a 2.7 short block? Any reason that one can't be converted to twin plug? Machine work isn't a problem because I AM my machinist. Thanks again for all the input, guys.
Mark D.

... I think I may have just found the answer I was looking for.
Mark D.

If at all possible I would ABSOLUTELY buy a 'known good', already built and ready-to-run engine versus building something from scratch unless (a) I had really specific/esoteric needs for a certain race class or (B) I had so much extra money flying out my a$$ that I'd never miss it. I have a feeling neither of those apply to many of us here...

3.0> has a different headstud pattern than the 2.7<. It's spaced a bit wider top to bottom.
Dual plug requires either a tiny plug or aftermarket head studs, a stock spark plug won't clear the stock stud barrel nuts.

Actually the stock 6'er heat exchangers work GREAT with a 3.0. The much storied 3.0 from Bruce Anderson's book, where they took off the carbs and "back dated" the exhaust, was for a 914-6. The "back dated" exhaust was 914-6 heat exchangers. Porsche flat 6's like a little back pressure.

Nice. Thanks.

I don't want to be one of those naysayers, but if Leeds and Fordall couldn't get it done in FP with their 2.8L Motec engine, then I am not sure it is possible. There is over $150K in that car, with over $40K in the engine alone. They have all the tricks done in the suspension and transmission as well...custom Motons, swaybars, ERP, etc.

A 2.8L twinplug engine is not a cheap engine to build. Add in fuel injection and engine management and you are in the $20K plus range easily. My 2.7L engine is down about 30-40hp to their 2.8L.

-Britain

Money is important, but it's certainly not the only thing that wins races. Keep in mind, Greg and Leeds got their butts kicked by another 914-6 last week in Lincoln piloted by Jonathan Jackson (third place unofficially). I have no idea who that is or what the car's all about, but maybe we should ask him what he's running. BTW, Toby is only pushing 240 to the wheels, so I think an extra 30-40 HP on top of your engine sounds about right.
In any highly competitive class, all of the front runners will have their equipment dialed to within a gnat's ass and only barely within the rules. That's what makes it competitive. And if it were easy, it wouldn't be any fun. I don't think the 914 would necessarily dominate. And without a good driver, nothing good is gonna happen. But I don't think it's out gunned, by any means. Thanks for your input, though. And good luck with the Suby conversion.
Mark D.

Jackson (he goes by "J") is a local racer and has been at AX for lots of years. He's competitive on a tricycle. Come on down to Little Rock (War Memorial Stadium) this Sunday and run your car in the Governor's Cup AX. I just got off of the phone with him and he'll be there with the same car. Ask him yourself.

Just another thought. There is a weight issue with aluminum cases, but if you weight the lower cost at machine shop to prep a case, (no case certs needed, no oil pump modification needed) use 78/79 SC heads the port sizes are already a good size and should save you money over porting/polishing to get optimum size. It is possible to destroke the 3.0 crankshaft and make a 2.8 using standard 95mm cylinders with custom pistons being made vs the 92mm cylinders for the 2.8 engine. Jim

Any pictures of this car, he did damn well at Nationals.

-Britain

I'm sure there are. . I'm around that car (and it's predecessor) all the time and will ask him if it's ok to take close-ups.

http://www.ozarkpca.org/photos/eve/2010/06.../_KS10664sm.htm

http://www.ozarkpca.org/photos/eve/2010/06.../_KS10516sm.htm

http://www.ozarkpca.org/photos/eve/2010/06.../_KS10517sm.htm

http://www.ozarkpca.org/photos/eve/2010/06.../_KS10510sm.htm

That's all I could find since the local SCCA site doesn't have a current Gallery.

C'ya

Simple, buy the biggest /6 you can afford.

Andy

Now that sounds like solid advice.

from John Holmes

Crank available from Henry Schmidt...3500 plus ... me thinks for the crank

Armando at CCR in the Bay area will weld and regrind crankshafts, and even has done special nascar racing rods to boot. I personally like Sir Andy's thoughts get the largest motor you can afford to buy. I do not know about you but going from 110 hp on a stock six to 300 hp on a 993 engine with a special chip sounds pretty exciting to me. Jim

plus everything you touch once you start getting beyond the 2.7 and even the 2.7 you are trying to get the right compression, correct size carbs, right pistons so you can run cam for carbs, and lets not forget the port sizes - then the stock exchangers are too small and you start loosing power that you are happy to get. You get to the next 3.0 or 3.2 level and it starts all over again - custom pistons so you can run the cam, what size carbs, and now different exhaust system large enough to work with all the new parts, and are you happy now - probably not if 3.2 is great why not 3.4 and now you get to 46 or 50 pmo carbs and the 1.75" exhaust, oh twin plug distributor? It never stops ---- what about the transmission??????? at some point 915 transmission either with a Vellios kit, or Wevo shift or replica 916 shift parts and guys I am telling you it is not difficult to see where a drive train (engine and transmission) can be $15,000 up to $20000. Ouch. Do not forget the SS B&B headers with heat wow. Someone please stop me. Jim