Does it exist yet?

Ideally, 1k for ITB's, EFI and harness.

Anyone...and no Megasquirt please..

Looking for something to start with...then like any good drug, get hooked and pay more to play.

Rich

No.

You can buy a number of entry level ECU's with harnesses for <$1k, but ITB's are definately not going to come in under that mark. ITB's are expensive enough that In fact, unless you adapter motorcycle throttle bodies, I am condident you would spend more than that piecing together a MS system with them.

Off the top of my head, Adaptronic, DTA, Performance Electronics, and Spectre (EMS Pro) all offer resonably priced ECU's. Also, at the pricepoint you are looking at, I really wouldn't discount pre-assembled MS units or Microsquirts. The last MS product I played with was 2.5+ years ago and I wasn't super impressed by the quality, but from what I have seen of late, they seem to be maturing into extremely nice products. Part of my disatisfaction was post likely related to my inexperience. Right now I have friends whose DD's run with them. I do like the Adaptronic e420C, the one on our racecar has been bulletproof, its only limitation is the lack of individual cylinder trim, and a slightly different correction tabel setup.

are there links for these?

Seriously?
You have heard of Google, right?

Rich

Double that number & this is an option, although I know of nobody who has used this.

You can check their catalog, they do have a 914 ultra competition FI system for sale.

This is the cheapest option out there. A complete system for $1700. You will spend more on Megasquirt and misc parts to fab up a system. Plus this system looks cool.

If you want to stay anywhere near that price Megasquirt is your only option. The cheapest ITB's I know of (that are actually made for our appliction) are the cb performance 48MMs but those are still $530 just for the pair of bare TB's. Add injectors, fuel rails, manifold, linkage, velocity stacks, filters, and a TPS and you are already close to 1k before even looking at an ECU or harness.

Using MS as the ECU you could pull it off for around 1k, anything else and best case is about twice that.


What are you currently running carbs or d-jet, and what is your reason for wanting to go to aftermarket injection?

I am not to familar with the others but from what i remember the Spectre EMS pro IS a Megasquirt 1 based ECU. Whenever you see a low cost ECU look really close, good change it is megasquirt based.

Yep. It is MS1 based. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way, but while MS-based, it does have a warranty so I don't consider it the same. When people say they don't want MS, I usually assume their aversion is because of the lack of factory support.

The others are not at all related to MS.

This is totally OT, but, if anyone here is into controls and really wants to go hardcore custom with their engine controls look into the Adaptronic e1280. It has custom function scripting ability.

This isn't a paid plug , just a satisfied customer, but I would recomend the Adaptronic stuff if anyone wants to spend a bit more money. I've dealt with the guys at Adaptronic, and they are awesome. Even though they are located in Oz so the timezones are really spread, they have answered and question we (my FSAE team) have had in literally a matter of hours.

I did a Megasquirt setup on my type 4 turbocharged sand rail for well under 1 kilodollar and it works great. I took the venturis out of my 40IDF's and BAM there's your ITB's.

If you already have carbs thats a great solution. My dad and I are planning on doing that with his 911's Zeniths so we can stealthily retrofit EFI.

Details...pics of carbs...please.
Sensor location?

Rich

A guy at work just gave me some 41MM TB's off a GSXR. Looking for webber intakes now to update my MS2.

I would guess I have $750 in Jenvey TB's, + some EFI components used such as TPS, injectors, etc. Another $1250 to SDS for the system with harness delete. About $500 so far to Jeff Bowlsby to build a custom harness. Some misc. stuff that isn't cheap but I can't think of now...

The CB option as stated above, is very inexpensive IMO ......... it may even be possible to remove manifolds and linkage from the kit to get a better price, if one already has them.

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1665

What a great deal. People I know that have utilized CB performance engines are happy, but in any event you should ask CB performance for references.

FYI when we put FI on "222" we were plowing new ground.

We used the Link System from New Zealand. Paul Harvey, Performance Development, did the harness (*), which was developed from scratch, we used TWM throttle bodies and fuel rails. There are braided and high pressure lines everywhere all of which cost $$. Of course we needed a high pressure fuel regulator, filter and very high performance fuel pump, plus all the other accessories, i.e., 02 sensors, etc. We use CB maniforlds.

And then we had the nose bleed of developing a fuel map on the dyno which costs, in itself, more than twice what CB charges for their entire system, let alone all the HW.

The CB approach looks to be a very cost effective and a huge positive is that it is "matched," i.e., the homework is done. If you went this way you should seriously consider having them do the initial tuning as well.

(*) I have the diagrams if you'd like to see them

PS The most positive thing about FI is that once it is done, your done. No more messing with tuning regardless of where you are, i.e., sea level or off running a hill climb at 5000 feet.

MS based systems (and others) also require a laptop computer and a lot of trial and error tuning the system. The CB system claims a plug and play adaptability.

I have made fuel and ignition maps from scratch. Not a bunch of fun but can be rewarding when it runs right. It is very time consuming.

Nothing beats SDS for ease of tuning. Nothing

and what about the quote : simple f/ i kit from / laptop less !

cb

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=278

back from the past....

Have the prices come down yet?

if the linkage isn't right you'll have the SAME nagging issues. software and no amount of money thrown at a system will cure them. i think closer to $3k is what the full meal deal will run when all is said and done.

Nope. But MicroSquirt gets you an ECU for $300 and it's what's running my Turbo 1.7.

You could also use old 80s GM EFI, the port injection stuff, is simple, a MAP, TPS, AIT, CTS, and a feed for the trigger off a dizzy. A few hours at a Pick and pull you have your stuff. Another couple hours of dyno time with a person that knows how to program this stuff and your done. LOL thats as cheap as it gets.

Or build your own intake, with single TB, is by far the easiest. I have used Motorcycle TBs off a Ducati 1200cc units. You have to get the manifold spacing right. Cut weld tip, or build custom manifolds, not as had as you might think. You can do it out of fiberglass and carbon fiber. With a little bit of foam as the core. You design them form the inside out. Build the runners out of foam, build the mounts out of Al plate, drill all our holes etc... Glue the runners to the plates, and then wrap the foam with packing tape. And epoxy, and glass them up. a couple layers of fiberglass then wrap in carbon. Very lite part, and not bad if you want to build a custom intake. Yhn gut the foam, its a lost casting method. Great for one off parts terrible for production.

If it was me, an your dead set of ITBs. I would go motorcycle, custom intake, and then use a Microsquirt. They are rugged prebuilt, limited, but pretty nice package.

Or if you want to learn, efi your lawn mower or other small engine. a four stroke 2 cylinder engine will give you all the same issues as your 914 engine. In some ways even more. And if you blow it up its not as bad as dumping a type-4 engine.

Or get a cheap beater car that is EFI, rip out the factory ECU, and install, Micro, Mega, SDS, HalTech, and find it used.

Megasquirt even makes a PnP unit, which is not bad way to learn into a factory engine.

Good stuff!!!

on my watercooled 1.6 build Im using CBR600F4i throttle bodies, and megasquirt. I got the ITBs for $45 shipped. Im sure I'll be under $1000 when its all said and done. If I were to go with a programmable EFI setup for an aircooled motor, I would be looking at Microsquirt.

Mario at Vdubengineering has the whole kit...or a piece at the time like I am buying it with basic conservative maps installed ..uses the ms or micro squirt..cb itbs...real nice fuel rails ect....trigger kit for crankfire and cop is 140.00...made of stainless looks nice....vw guy doesnt have a 914 but uses type 4s in vws...

the dubshop.net my bad

Micro Squirt:

http://www.useasydocs.com/quickstart.htm

Very informative!

I think the idtb are not ness
The cleanest setup I've seen was taken off a vw.rabbit
And put in a 914 , so if I were doing it ( never happen as long as my d,jet keeps goin)
Id go to pick apart , get a rabbit fuel injection system and I'm sure I'd stay on budget
Over all this new fangled high tech b,s


Shout out to the cheap sob





" who do you think you are ,mickey spillane , your not a writer
Your a killer. Yes sir , a killer !

[quote name='914forme' date='Mar 28 2014, 09:56 AM' post='2017248']
You could also use old 80s GM EFI, the port injection stuff, is simple, a MAP, TPS, AIT, CTS, and a feed for the trigger off a dizzy. A few hours at a Pick and pull you have your stuff. Another couple hours of dyno time with a person that knows how to program this stuff and your done. LOL thats as cheap as it gets."

First of all, I have next to no real knowledge on this modern FI stuff.

Regards to the above suggestion....that's exactly what I'm trying to do now.
I've been talked into trying to adapt a Honda Civic ODB1 ECU to run on my new type 4 engine.
I've search and found out that Mark produces a "trigger " wheel for the fuel injection.
If he reads this posting, I have a question for him.
Can I simply utilize that trigger to communicate / fire off the injectors?
You see...I do mean I have no knowledge.

Thanks for any future input.

[quote name='914forme' date='Mar 28 2014, 09:56 AM' post='2017248']
You could also use old 80s GM EFI, the port injection stuff, is simple, a MAP, TPS, AIT, CTS, and a feed for the trigger off a dizzy. A few hours at a Pick and pull you have your stuff. Another couple hours of dyno time with a person that knows how to program this stuff and your done. LOL thats as cheap as it gets."

First of all, I have next to no real knowledge on this modern FI stuff.

Regards to the above suggestion....that's exactly what I'm trying to do now.
I've been talked into trying to adapt a Honda Civic ODB1 ECU to run on my new type 4 engine.
I've search and found out that Mark produces a "trigger " wheel for the fuel injection.
If he reads this posting, I have a question for him.
Can I simply utilize that trigger to communicate / fire off the injectors?
You see...I do mean I have no knowledge.

Thanks for any future input.......sorry as my finger was too fast...thus the double post.

Okay this should be fun.

If your the kind that learns by doing then here is my suggestion.

Pickup a Megasquirt Kit, build the dang thing, its not hard, take your time follow the instructions.

Then pickup One of these and use it to learn what happens when you change parameters and input values. It is a great way to learn ,and if you blow something up, your out very little. Not like putting a hole in a piston.

Biggest problem you have with using a near EFI system, is the engines VE is different, it can be worked through but it is not as easy as bolting on an modern EFI. If you want a basic system then K-jet conversion is a great choice as it is a mechanical analog system. Used for several years on VW, Porsches and several others, very simple in nature, and very easy to keep running.

There are several good books out now on EFI.

I used a Haltech sprint 500 when I converted my car a couple of years ago.
It cost me a bit then but I'm pretty sure if I planned really carefully I could do the same setup under $1000.
I used weber 38idf carbs and gutted them, Mitsubishi dissy and LS1 coils.
My dad wants me to do his 2ltr kombi for him and I'll use the oem fi manifold rather than ITB as it didn't gain me anything on what I assume is a stock rebuild.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...onic+conversion

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
best of all, it's a NO BRAINER

If your using Carbs, epoxy all the holes except the idle bypasses. Gut them make the bores as clean as you can. Do not forgot that you ned a vacuum tap in each bore, an build a vacuum manifold so your MAP can pickup a more stable signal.

Carbs are a great way to build these, you just don't need all the junk.

Plan and simple its way easier to do a manifold and a single TB.

Key is go out and have fun, and learn something new.

Brad and I talked briefly about a setup like this. Bottom line... You can use the EFI off any engine on a 914 IF you can duplicate all the sensor input/output. This does not mean it will run well. Once you duplicate sensors, you are at the mercy of the ECU fuel map. Most likely it will run but will not be matched to the engine you are putting it on.

Early ODBI systems have almost no fuel correction. A 2005 or later ODBII system with WB O2 would correct better. But is is still not setup for an air cooled engine.

If you want to play with OEM EFI systems, pick one with a big aftermarket support group. Honda, Subaru & Toyota have great support for flashing ECU's. And web sites like this one for technical info. The newer the ECU, the more support there usually is. Early ECU's use a ton of vacuum lines to make everything work and smog correctly. I would stay away from 1990's ECU's except GM.

I could take the Audi/VW ECU (2000 MY) I have and rework it for a T4 but the cam and crank signals would require some creative internal modifications. All the other sensors just bolt on somewhere.

So it seems the general topic: OE FI troubleshooting / FI tweek'ing / FI replacement / Mega - Microsquirt implementation, has reached a point of critical mass ?
Time has taken its toll on 35+ yr old parts, OE supply has dwindled or disappeared.
Aftermarket support & options for "PnP kits" has improved & costs have come down (some).

Admins, is it time we devote a sub-forum to aggregate the collective wisdom, experience and solutions?

This might be a good idea...

Thanks for the info. .I guess the $ I just spent was for not .. to my knowledge Richard Clewett has a plug and play system. Instead of saving money. I ended up losing $. Time to call Richard Clewett ...oh does anyone know how much Mark us selling his Mega system for? Thanks

IMHO, if you're looking for a programmable EFI system for $1K or less, MS is your only option and you'll be doing all the fabrication. Looking for a PnP system isn't out there in that price range and IMHO expecting one to be, is totally unrealistic considering carbs cost nearly that . . . In reality, it could be done for around $700-$800 if you used your OEM EFI plenum, runners, injectors, sensor and hit the wrecking yard for the rest.

MS has been around long enough now that you can easily find someone who is running it on a motor like yours that will be willing to send you the .MSQ file (the complete engine tune file). From there it's tailoring it to your specific engine.

MS is the least expensive, most capable system out there for the $$$. I get my MS systems and parts for me and my clients come from Mario at www.thedubshop.net. He's local to me and I've had a great relationship with him for years. There are many others including McMark who can hook you up with a system, parts and service too.

Sorry for the Hijack but for example I was contemplating the debate between ITBs & comman Plenum applications, considered the prevailing wisdom, a limiting factor is the SIZE of the Plenum. So I did a search & came up with this interesting project:intake plenum design

I think ITB setups are a bit more of a pain to set up. You still have a linkage that you have to sync up correctly and there's little benefit for all the extra work. I think any stock FI hardware (runners, plenum, TB, etc) will save you LOADS of time in setup and configuration. Plus they're cheap. You can also use stock injectors if you run a resistor pack (stock 1.8 L-Jet part works). IMHO, chasing after "best" solutions (ITB vs plenum, custom plenum sizing, etc) just gets in the way of getting a system up and running. Try to work with as few new components as possible so the learning curve doesn't go off the charts. Add new stuff in a little at a time after you have the basics.

I would be down for a FI sub-forum. I do like the CIS as it is pretty idiot proof once running. My current fight with the bus is due to rush job, lots of prototypes, and possible incorrect wiring of some circuits. Learning curve. Fun stuff. A CIS for a 4 cyl, as mentioned, would be pretty cheap and easy. Type47 has one posted and it is nice and easy.

For electronic, I agree with everything said. MS, around $800, needs tweaking.

I like the central inlet, too. Porsche uses it on many of their engines.

I think this Plus MS would be the only way to meet the less than $1k requirement.

Add in both a MAF and MPS from a pick-U-part and you can experiment with which one works best with just software tweaks.

There are different orientations of D-jet intake manifolds.
( I didnt know this until I inventoried my parts stash the other day - I have one horiz & one vertical TB)
The horizontal one would probably support the MAF sensor better than the vertical.

Two guys that race in RMVR use 4X D-jet ITBs and run MS with E85.

Hell Yeh, I demand to know who is running this system and if its as awesome as advertising???

If I had sick electro mechanical skills ,,, and more confidence . I'd rip out my d,jet and put it in.if it indeed does fix all issues related to 44 year old fuel induction , but

But come on guys who run this system , chime in ,

I mean I've seen every thing from 3.2. Sixes , turbo type 4' s, Subaru ,na turbo

Ls1 v8 , v6 conversions , mega squirt, baby webbers , Dell's . RAby proprietary system whichi
Though was also awesome , CIS etc
And your tellin me no body's running this f,I ???


Shout out to the cheap sob











My core , your core, our core , marine core !

I like workin for uncle sam , let's me know just who I am

CB Compitition Fuel injection system was ran on Doc Nugent's 914 Lite project. Worked great for his car.914 Lite Project Page

Lifted from the siteA "big four" displacing 2.5 liters (2499cc to be exact): 103mm bore and 75mm stroke with CB Performance's Ultra Competition fuel injection (four 31 lb. injectors in a pair of Weber-like 48mm throttle bodies),"

As for meeting the sub $1K price.

Simplest is MicroSquirt, and stock EFI parts. You could change your injects to hi resistance units to save a bunch of resistors hanging out. The MicroSquirt is pretty small and water tight so mount it where ever you wish.

Might be able to do that build pretty cheap, I would get a 1.7, or 1.8L intake, they flow better than the 2.0L does. And more even fill of the runners.

OK....but...how many people have done this? Meaning MS with the stock components.

Please raise your hands for under a $1,000