Well after several months, $ and patience they are done. Brad has a set - hopefully he will post some better pics of the layout. Please see http://engmanparts.com for details

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Packaged!

Mark,
Is this the "U" bracing Brad recommended in one of the cage threads? Was this reinforcement tested before and after installation? I recall Brad saying the boxing of rear arms is not necessary yet many do it...
Felix

Dude!
those look sweet!!!

These are 16g BTW. Today I performed some measurements on stiffness - Car is supported on 4 jackstands at the ends of the rear of each long. Long kit (old one witout the top pieces is installed on the drivers side only) Remove the drivers side jackstand and place wife on passenger rear corner (I will not say what she weights but this is done to keep the car in the rear on the jackstands). Me sits on the drivers side corner above the wheel ( I wieght too much - about 220) measure the amount of movement. Repeat for passenger side.

Results

Passenger side deflection - 1/4"
Drivers side deflection - 1/8"

Now this is not real scientific- my son read the deflection - even accounting for possible errors this is at least a 1/16" improvement. The passenger long above the battery has been repaired - cut out and welded new metal in so I do not think that that was an impact. And the rear connection piece had not been installed. Hope this helps.

M

I may be wrong here, but I think I remember Brad talking about this rather emphatically when he was in Indy last fall. What Brad was saying is that the current chassis stiffening kits available are welded onto the outside and bottom of the longs, but that the inside of the long is where the real structural intergrity needed to be augmented. The longs, from the factory, are "C" shaped with the outside piece welded on, but that outside piece only handles a fraction of the torsional and/or structural rigidity.

I think what he was getting at is that it would take less material more strategically placed to get better results.

I *THINK* this is exactly what Mark addresses with his setup.

Am I making any sense here?

This looks cool..... but does it work? Has it been tested for any amount of time? If the longs don't give... what will?? Just curious.

Hopefully nothing.

I love the feel of a stiff ride. My 04 Durango is awesomely stiff for such a big vehicle.

So do you have to tack all those holes? Just checking to see if that's how they attach. Kindda like the GT kits for the rear wheel well. I like how all of this design will be covered by interior bits, all stock looking.

Perhaps post a link on the main site to see if this is in fact the kit that Brad was talking about. Looks cool, when I get into my bodywork etc I'll probably go for something like this!

If you are installing a roll cage would these be necessary? I'm thinking that a properly designed cage would take care of the flex.

Yes this was developed based upon Brads input - He has one of these now. I am sure that a roll cage helps but this goes to the source of the flex. Static testing that I have done show a nice improvement. If you want ask Brad in the main forum - I am sure he will comment.


M

Mark nailed this kit EXACTLY like I envisioned. I first did a crude stiffening like this in one of the first 9146 conversion cars I built back in 1995. It totally changed the dynamics of the car with the 6 in it. When you get on the gas in a 2.7 and up 9146 you can feel the chassis twist up like a loaded spring. With my crude kit in place the car didnt have that feeling. It also helped slow down the top squeek and made the windows fit better...LOL

I'll have install pics and a write up for the main BBS late Monday night. The kit Mark shipped to me is ready for install on Monday.

As far as not needing a cage... the cage is for safety. Strength is a by product of what gets built for safety. I honestly believe that this will be stronger than a production type cage where you are limited to a certain number of pickup points. This covers a lot of real estate along the frame rails.

Great job Mark. Cant wait to start selling them.


B

Mark,

Does your kit interfere with the reinstallation of the speaker grills?

-Rusty

Nope - hole is in it for the screw on the long.

M

Do you recommend installing these plates with the car on the ground or on jack stands to take the stess off the longs?

Does it matter?

You definately want the pressure off the longs - use the jackstands. (yes there is still stress in the longs on the jackstands- its just much reduced due to the distances of support)



M

quick question about carpet fit.
Does a stock carpet set fit after these are installed?

Yes - these vitually mold to the longs.


M

How much do they weigh?

When trekkor installed his he mentioned they were 18 pounds, but I don't know for sure how he came up with the figure.

I stepped on the bathroom scale, took note of my largeness, then reached for the kit and wallaw!

The difference is 18#.

Do these require the removal of any interior sheet metal (spot weld cutting) before installation? Thanks.

No removal of any metal inside is required. You do have to remove the seam sealer and sound deading material and clean up any residual glue on the longs where these attach in order to achieve good welds.


M

Mark,

I need to prder one of your kits and have it shipped to MarkD. I'll send PM and email.

Mark I sent you an email and PM.

PM sent - I currently have some in stock.

M

see the complete install photo documentary:here!

Trekkor

Looks good. Working on my 71 and these might be a nice thing to add. A couple of points to note about your install:

1. I stripped the tar on my two 914's (one will get trashed due to rust) and by far the easiest and fastest tar scraping was with a heat gun to soften the tar AND the use of a 1" wood chisel. The charp edge of the chisel is nicer that a putty knife. Heat 10" area for about a minute or less.

2. The seam sealer strips out nicely with high heat. A torch works great. Again, the 1: chisel is a cool tool for this.

3. Welding - I have yet to start my welding skill again, but I've been reading and reading. Metal should be shiny when you weld. Your users should use a pencil to trace-out the holes and then use a wire bruch to clean the area before welding. Also, any gap is too much. Tight fits are the way to go. Use sheet metal screws to pull it all in if you need to. Back them out when you get to that area and then just fill the hole. Cool MIG Tip - Use a pair of wire cutters and cut off the wire end after you stop every time. The end is oxidized, so this gives you a clean start.

4. I noticed that you did not weld along the floor pan. Makes sense to me since these floors are so thin anyway. But you should use POR15 or RustBullet to preserve the metal. I have been using POR15's rust converter first and it simply works -- leaves behind a cold zinc coating and the rust is neutralized.

5. Jacking it up. I worked on one of my Longs and used a 4x4 under the side that I was working on running just under the edge of the long. Nice, straight and spreads the load.

Nice looking product and useful welding pictures.

Good Luck

Joe C.

Do you make them only in 16 gauge? Would 18 be too week?

Also, do you need to strip the paint on the longs before putting the kit on?

16G is the way to go. 18G could be used but the flex modulus is a lot worse - (ME term meaning more flex). 16G is also easier toweld in my opinon. You ideally should wire wheel and have 'clean' metal to weld to, but if you clean off any old glue you can weld these and the welder will burn thru the paint. Depends upon how gud a welder you are.

Mark

Thanks,

I haven't tried a torch or heat. But, believe me, the air chisel is BOLD.
Use short bursts and a 15-25 degree angle and it just breaks away...tonight!

No stink, no smoke, no accidental fires

Try this first, please.

KT

I just got another batch of these run for those that have asked about them.


M

Received my inner long kit, good looking product. The package got here quick, even right before xmas. Can't wait to schedule the interior removal and the install of this kit.

Great job Engman.

Eric

PS. I'm trying to print the install thread by Trekkor to guide my friend with a welder. I think I'm going to cut and paste into a document to make a more usable format. I'll let people know how that works out

Hi
I just sent a PM regarding that inner kit... maybe more
Thanx
Joe

This kit is a great way to upgrade the overall feel of the car. It really works well and is very easy to install. Just takes about six hours.

KT

Does that 6 hours include all the prep work, tar removal and top coating?

-Rusty

QUOTE (Engman @ Feb 9 2005, 12:52 PM)

I have one inner long kit that has some paint blemishes - metal is fine - just the paint is a little odd in a couple of spots - $230 plus shipping takes it - first one to respond gets it. I also have instructions now included - I would post it - but it is about 7M on my computer and I am on dail up. M

Mark,

Email it to me. I'll host it on my site.

-Rusty

Heh Mark Paypal has been sent thanks again I add ins just in case.Paul

QUOTE

Does that 6 hours include all the prep work, tar removal and top coating?

Yes and no

I took all the carpet, passenger seat and back pad out at home before I went to the friend's shop.

Time is: perimeter tar removal ( air chisel is that fast ), fitment, welding, grinding, priming, cleanup and driver seat back in.

KT

would these be recommended on a street car, one that has had outer long repair?

or is this really just for handling rigidity? i.e would an auto-x car benefit more from this than a street car?

I do not as of now autocross - maybe in the future. I wanted something stiffer in my car. So I made one. I did not have a cross brace in my first one (the 73)and am currently putting one in my stalled project 74LE car.

The stiffness difference is noticeable.
But I am biased - read what thers have said and form your own opinions on what YOU want in your 914.

M

What cross-brace are you talking about, the piece that goes on the back firewall?

Yep - years ago I made one of these but witout the cross piece (one that goes across the back) - the longs on the 73 had been bondoed on the inside by the former po so that HAD to be fixed.

M

hmm, I think I'll drive it first and see if it feels "flexy" on corners... I'm only repairing 2 small places...