It sounds to me like you are describing a Honda S2000.
You could put one of those engines in a 914 (a dream of mine, 9500 rpm and 240 hp) but by the time you get done you will have spent a lot o'money on something that will likely not be as good as an S2000.
I say just go buy one unless you really like to tinker.

BTW a slightly modified yellow S2000 regularly takes TTOD at our AX. Them things run. They also make an aftermarket supercharger for them, increased bottom end torque and 330 hp, out of a 2 liter. I like.

yep, same thing happens up here, I think he's an instructor that brings his S2000 to the Marina Porsche Club auto=x and damn near cleans up every time....

A 300+hp BMW powered 914 that is light weight is hardly destroying automotive history... IMO it's repairing it...

What would I be dissapointed with? The 914 is a great handling car, with a beautiful design. I'd just be adding power. And there are over 100,000 with 98,000 having rust on them somewhere... This one has rust.

Anyways, I'm looking at the 914 again in about an hour, I'll report back with details.

I still can't believe there is no BMW powered 914, who would put a small block over a great BMW I-4?

leave the 914 alone... put a v8 in a 2002

well, I don't know the exact numbers, but I'd have to say at there are at least 100 V8 conversions.....I guess all of them must be pretty clueless since they some how "over looked" this great BMW I-4 you keep bragging about (which they no longer make since there is something called progress )

Sometimes practicality wins over passion , you have a lot of passion for this I-4 motor and there is nothing wrong with that, but at the same time, you seem to be clueless about the motor when it comes to the real world of how much it's going to really cost to get the HP level you want from it. I don't know, you say you want 300hp and to keep it affordable at the same time, I'm guessing it's going to cost you at a minimum $5000 for the motor itself and that is with you doing a lot of the work....of course the price comes down if using used parts such as the turbo and fuel injection.
From what I've read about it on the web, yes, it's a pretty good engine, but a lot has changed and for some people, they don't want a motor based on 1960s technology (I know, they used the same basic engine up to 1983)

Hell, just build a massive 500ci chevy full alcohol motor, put it in the front coupled with a 2 sp with a 9" ford rear end and take it to the DRAGS!!!

1987 actually...

The engine will cost about 8k-10k with a turbo and intercooler. Thats with somebody else building, which would probably have to happen. But it would be able to put out WELL over 450hp.

The M10 block is good for up to 1500hp, it's proven. What I would do is get 8.0:1 forged pistons, an S14 crank and 92mm bore would turn displacement to 2.2l, some custom rods, extensive head work, valve springs, keepers and rocker arms, turbo cam, o-ring, copper head gasket, etc... You get it. There are similair setups putting down 750rwhp under 2Bar of boost... Go find me a V-8 that can do that and keep the weight low. BTW... I'd be revving to 8k-9k RPMS...

The M10 is free, I have a family member with a junk yard. I could do no work to it and put out over 200hp with a turbo, with a total cost of about 2,500, to 3,000 but whats the fun in that.

The M10 is still a great engine, I have no clue why BMW doens't still use it today. IMO, it's new I-4s aren't as reliable, and get worse gas mileage. At it's best the 1.8l SOHC M10 was putting out 127hp. That doesn't include its turbo charged 2002tii variant.

I didn't say they overlooked this engine.

The M10 weighs 186lbs.

Don't say it's not doable, it's been done. If it can't get done with 10,000 dollars, I'll put in more. I don't have many expenses.

sounds like a BMW BBS huh ,

1st question: where are you going to put this intercooler? radiator? exhaust? etc...

2nd: what the heck are you gonna do with a transmission, 1 901/914 trans is good for 200 - 300hp (maybe). 1500hp? hmmm.. no.

3rd: with all this power, how you going to keep it on the ground?

seems like you want to build a mid engine custom car under a 914 body

oh well...

Those motors are good. My buddy has an EVO spec 2.3 in his E30 race car. I think it dynoed at about 270. Bullit is where he hangs out and they service his car, too.

Now, while those are great motors, I'd still prefer a Porsche -6 in my car for numerous reasons.

1. Cost - 3.2 is readily available and the design work is done
2. No water to mess with
3. THE SOUND - aircooled flat sixes sound like heaven!
4. Support - easy to find people who have Been There Done That
5. More venues to race (non-porsche engines are poo-pood in most P-Car clubs)
6. 320 HP is plenty in a 2000 lb car

To each your own, just my 2 cents.

He needs to spell out his last name before I think he's a troll.....except for my LAST name....it should be at least 3 syllables...

I didn't know I could do that!

I better read the forums more.

And some of you people are so unfriendly! I guess even the 2,000 dollar Porsche owners are douchebags...

Here I am wanting a lightweight, tossable, highpowered 914, and SOME of you people act like asses. I ask questions and get snooty replies. I guess a 2800lbs V8 powered 914 is awesome... But a 2200lbs 914 with a superior BMW motor(The M10 is unbelievably better than the Type IV) and you guys with your plan is TEH suX0RS!11!!!

I like the 914 and I'm going to stick a BMW engine into one. If you're just going to say, "That's stupid, you're might be a troll." Don't post.

If you're going to say something like seanery, who pointed out the Carrera motor might be good and keep weight down, post it.

Can you guys think of many 450hp 2200lb 914s that aren't race cars? I can't...

I apologize to those that helped out, this is not directed to you guys in anyway, you've been alot of help!

Out of curiosity.. How much money do you have to spend on this???

Because if You want to do this.. Buy someone's project.. Get a ride in a v8 914... spend 25k on someones ALREADY done monster (in whatever mix..)

There are a lot of race cars for sale for 10k... Beef em up and you have what you want...

Dont start with a "great car" and make it a race car... Start with a Piece of junk or another race car.... Or buy someone's project..

Again..

How much money do you plan spending??


If you want the fastest 914... build a high revving SBC v8.... Ya, they sound awesome.... Oh and if 500 hp isnt enough.. theres always turbo's for an even COOLER sound....

AGAIN How much money do you have to plan on spending?

v8 914's are about 2300 to 2400 lbs, in stock form...

Then do the usual lightening... and cut off 200 lbs...

Just on the engine you can loose..

34 lbs for an aluminum intake.

40 lbs for aluminum heads

100 (I dont know..) for an aluminum block....

See if there is a v8 or any high hp 914 around you to take a ride in.....

Ooooppsie...WE must be related...he's gettin' pissy. Ask yer questions after a bit of research....lot's of resources on this site and the 'BIRD" board.....we will help ya, but it has been discussed adnaseum (crappy latin)....look at the old posts and the FAQ......

cool yer jets and ask nice......otherwise.... :finger2:

Hey Geek. Good to have you join us. I've got tenure so I can say whatever I want and pretty much get away with it, so here goes. New guys around here usually don't start posting right off the bat. They lurk and read and search and then begin posting ever so gradually until they've built up a little acceptance with the group. You kinda 'burst through the doors' with a big entrance. Caught a few peopel off guard. I'm not saying it was wrong - just not what they're used to. Also a lot of people around here are defensive about the TypeIV, so you'll ruffle a few feathers if you imply that the TypeIV is less than magnificent. Like I said - I've got tenure so I can get away with saying it's anemic and sounds like a tractor. Anyway, some people I consider to be friends and generally very nice people have pitched some sh*ty remarks in your direction the past two days and I can only hope they didn't mean them to sound as bad as they did. Make some jokes. Hang around and get to know us. Pretty soon you'll find your place among us. This group is a community much more than most other BBS's you may have been to. A large percentage of the posters here have known each other for years. Even decades. When you barge in with a bunch of loud talk... well you know. So hang around a while and you'll be integrated if you'll give it a chance. Get a 914 and start posting your conversion project pictures and you'll win the crowd over in a hurry (extra points for doing your own fabrication work).

-Ben M. (on my way out to the shop to work on my "exhaust restrictor" project. )

Not to be pissy myself, but you need to read the replies you've received on this very subject more. My first post on this subject, the very first reply, mentioned the 3.2 911 engine as a possible swap, since it's commonly done. You immediately dismissed the idea because I mentioned the engine was heavier than the Type IV.

I think some of the defensiveness and unfriendliness you're experiencing is due to the fact that you're dissing the car before you even own one. This tends to rub people the wrong way, and makes you sound a bit like a know-it-all asshole, which rubs even more people the wrong way.

Fitting any I4 engine longitudinally into the 914 is going to be a challenge, IMHO. The Chevy V8 just barely fits, and you have to do things like space the engine back AND move the water pump off to the side to make it work w/o cutting the firewall. The one 928 V8 powered 914 has a heavily modified firewall (but the result looks well worth the effort). The 944 engine is known to not fit w/o serious surgery. There's a lot of width in the engine bay, but not a lot of length. Fitting the turbo and its plumbing probably won't be an issue at all if you can make the engine itself fit. Fitting an intercooler AND providing it with good airflow will be an interesting problem.

Honestly, I think just a stock early M3 engine should be quite enough. Anything over 200hp in a 914 will be tremendous.

very well put

Oh geez, I forgot to tell you guys about the 914 today...

I got it up on a jack, and its rusted pretty badly. I brought my fat friend with me, well he's kinda fat, but 6'4" so he's heavy, and the car passed the fat man test, but the amount of rust is worrying me. The rear suspension sags, and there is rust around the battery tray area.

I think I'm going to pass unless I can talk him down 2,000 dollars...

I know I will never find a rust free example, but I'll atleast look for the least rusty.

And it still has the FI system.

the area under the battery that is making the rear (right side I bet) sag is called the "Hell Hole" for good reason. Lotsa rust causes the sag.

I only paid $800 for my 914 so piss off, LOL

what the hell do you expect?

a group hug??

you asked for advice/opinions.....you start off blasting the shifting qualities or lack of on the 914, then you criticize the stock type IV motor and give us a history lesson on why BMW engines are so superior....it's like me going to your house and telling you how f'd up your place is and that I've slept in nicer Motel 6's.....I'm all for an interesting engine swap, hell, anyone would love to have an 180 lb motor that is capable of producing 300 or more HP, but with what you've written, I don’t think you have the mechanical skill or knowledge to pull it off...who knows you might prove me wrong and build something nicer than I have (which isn't very hard to do right now, LOL)....

...well, you "could" bolt it up the stock transmission...oh wait, no you can't, cause you are going to throw it away......

Ben, I've seen the Chrysler 4 cylinder turbo motor in a 914 (bolted up to the 901), and I'm pretty sure he didn't cut the firewall.....looking at some pictures, the M10 motor looks tiny and should fit in much easier than my VR6 motor

spend more money on a clean chassis, doing rust repair work sucks

I don't really need mechanical knowledge, I need a plasma cutter and some weldling materials...

I have good enough know how about mechanics to get it done, if someone starts something they have to finish it right? Especially if they're paying for it...

This goes back to my schematics. I have software for my BMWs that tells me everything about the car. Where every single nut and bolt goes, and how every peice of electrical machinery works. For a project like this I would need something like that, some sort of schematics of the 914. Maybe if I could find some manual that Porsche mechanics used. Do you guys know anything like what I'm talking about. I know the 914 is old and its VERY unlikely it has schematics on computer, but there should be a book somewhere.

What it looks like I'm going to do is read the forums, wait for the right 914 to come along, get the engine built(if I cant' find a 914, I'll use a 2002), and then spend alot of time in my garage... There really is nothing I can screw up, if I do something wrong, I'd know. Just takes patience, and I have that for cars.

Now, about the rust. I know all 914s have it, is there rust I can get away without repairing? I don't know what the crucial zones are.

For the intercooler and radiator, I think I have an idea of how to mount them in the rear, but I need to look at a 914 alot more carefully to see if it is possible. I think I am going to use 2 smaller intercoolers rather than one larger intercooler, but I'll have to see. My friend suggested mounting them on the sides and have custom quarter panels made... He also said to stick the radiator right behind my head... I think he was kidding about both... I cracked up just picturing it.

Thanks.



Edit: What about the differential? Did the 914 come with different ratios? I'd like bellow 3.3:1, if it exists. <_< Are there any interchangeable diffs off other P-Cars?

There are some other ring gears, but the ratio spread isn't wide. The pinion is part of the gearbox output shaft, so you would need to change that if the ratio spread were wide. You don't really want something below 3.3:1. The stock ratio is something like 8.5:1. The internal gearing on the 901 is very different from BMW gearing. 3.3:1 would only be useful if you're taking the car to Bonneville and plan to use a push truck. The 901 does have a zillion alternate ratios available (this was Porsche's primary racing gearbox throughout the 60s). Do a search here and you'll find a gearing chart with all of the alternate ratios.

I tried real hard not to post, but I can resist no longer

You get snotty remarks, basically because you ask for them
Not because you say the type4 or other pieces/parts of the 914 are crap... We don't care about any of that. 914-ers have thick skins and are used to that (on the porsche-scale, most consider the 914 to be somewhere down in the gutter )

It's your BS remarks about things like it needs to rev over 9.5K, turbo, 1500bhp, blah, blah, blah... that will get you into trouble here.

Most people here have "been there, done that" and know a few things about these cars.
Some of them worked, raced or converted them for as long as the car is around, so they should know a thing or 2 about what works and what doesn't

We've had guys like you come and go here before. You come off with BS claims and a "know it all" attitude. Stuff like that may impress people on a BMW, Honda or other rice-racer forum, but here people will just laugh their asses off and tell you to piss off

So there you have it...

Back on topic:
Like I mentioned earlier... even IF you can build that 225bhp/litre engine that only weighs 30#, how are you gonna get that kind of power to the wheels?
A 901 box won't hold up for sure, and even a converted 915 (bring serious money) probably won't last long.
To handle that kind of power. You'd probably be looking at a modified 930 tranny (most likely not hip enuf for you because it only has 4 gears and wouldn't work in your case because of your high reving small powerband engine either).
More likely you'll need a late G50 type transmission (again bring serious money and then some to get it running in a midengined car).

I don't think I've heard you mention 1 thing about suspension upgrades and very little about brake upgrades.
Typical for any boy-racer, because you'd think that huge bhp's will win a race.
People here know different and will learn how to drive first, build a good suspension/brakes second and get more power once they know they can handle it
Another reason (for me) to think you're just full of BS.

For now, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, just a little longer and see what happens next...

About the electronic parts catalog and even the factory manual... yes, they exist
you'll have to ask nicely and someone here may point you in the right direction

Oh, btw... Sean was wrong about the 3.2 it makes 230 (not 320) bhp in stock trim
Don't know too much about BMW's (nor do I care about them) but IIRC that's what the recent 3.2 3series BMW puts out, so BMW is only like 2 decades behind

cheers,

Jeroen

the stock R&P ratio is 4,429:1 (7:31 tooth ratio)
due to the torque convertor, SportoMatic R&P's are a little taller (8:32 IIRC).

about the only thing available for the 914 is found here:
914 manual

the nice thing about the 914 is how simple it is, even the wiring is not too bad, I've pulled the entire harness out and re-installed it just using a copy of the factory wiring diagram (next time I'll label everything to save me a days worth of work)



you'd be surprised how easy the swaps are, normally for 90% of the swaps, the only cutting needed is just a few holes in the front trunk (air inlet and air exit for the radiator), the only welding needed is for the engine mount (and exhaust perhaps)

My eyes...I even misread your reply, thinking you were correcting my number to 7.3:1 from 8.5:1.

3.3:1 still sounds absurdly tall to me, esp. for someone intent on building a 10,000rpm engine...

oops, sorry bout the typo.

i think he should do some huge hig revving 1500hp engine in a 2002. better yet, i want a v8 2002

My V8 914 weighed around 2400 pounds and I beat up on M3s and a modified M coupe (barely) on the track. My car was tossable and quick and fun.
I really like the M series inline 6, but I I'm scratching my head as to why you are so impressed with the inline 4.
It aint that special when compared to other modern engines Re: previous post on honda S2000.

Ok students, take notes, this part is on the test:
a 914 is......
a small, light, 30 year old car that is very fun to drive. Not because it has a fart pipe or powered by whatever stickers, but because it is so nimble, basic, and quirky. They aint fast (in a straight line) unless you put a large flat 6 or V8 in them. They are momentum cars that feel like a go-kart.
The shifting isn't comparable to a modern car, they have squeaks, rattles, wind noise, and are a bit "strange" and eccentric and require quite a bit on maintenence, they don't have power brakes or power windows or power steering, those are the reasons we love them.
If you love the 914 for the same reason, welcome to the club, you will fit right in.

if you hate the 914 for those reasons and want to try and change the car so that it is no longer a 914, don't buy one because you will not be happy with a 914 no matter how much you modify it, ever.
a 914 will always be a 914 unless you replace everything with parts from a different car, then it becomes a different car and isn't a 914. In that case isn't it easier just to buy a different car in the first place?
What I'm trying to say is, some of the reasons you dissed the 914 are the same reasons we like em. It is rather complicated and expensive to change these cars,
I suggest you get to know the car better before diving into something you may regret.

Great post Sammy.

I've had my '73 for 6 years now - driven nearly every day. Is it fast? Not hardly... Is it comfortable? Not in Phoenix without A/C... Would I ever get rid of it? Not on your life...

I’d advise actually getting a car and driving it for a while. You just might find that you like the underpowered little sucker. If not, then do what you want. Bring dollars…

I don't see what's wrong with a higher revving turbo charged I-4 that can put out great power. If your worried about getting the power to the wheels, I'll find someway. In the mean time I would just turn the boost down.

Because my project sounds really ambitious you guys don't like it?

Suspension and Brakes come later, those aren't the hard parts to do.

Here are the characteristics of a 914... In my opinion.

-Good Looking
-Fun
-Tossable
-Great Handling
-Agile
-Light
-Sloppy Shifting
-Quick in an odd way
-Slow most of the time

The only thing I'd be changing would be the last 3. It would be devastingly fast. I'm not changing anything else. Except maybe the seats to something with strong bolster support.

BTW, the most recent 3.2l BMW engine puts out 333hp, it's in the latest M3... 100hp/per liter, natually aspirated.

You people have no clue what I'm about. I'm probably one of the most anti-ricer people you'll ever meet. I'm talking about installing a GERMAN turbo charged I-4 that can put out great power, and you people call me a ricer and mention fart pipes and stickers!

You guys obviously don't approve of this project. Don't say because it isn't possible, because anything can be done to a car with work.

Did you guys expect me to come and say the 914 is a great shifting car with a strong engine? I came in trying to remedy those problems.

a done, well sorted, high end car in the classifieds here, is what you will spend anyway. less down time too.

kevin

But then I don't learn anything about the 914, and I tend to enjoy the work I have done.

Ok troll, knock yourself out. Do it and them come back and show us what you did.

BTW some of us have done some very interesting things to 914s, not just talk about it.

Maybe you're not a rice boy, but you sure sound like one...


Obviously, you have no idea what so ever what kind of conversions are already running out there.
It's just that you sound like you are absolutely clueless what you're getting yourself into.
Being uneducated can be fixed, but being ignorant...


Or maybe you could just not rev it too high (put a block of wood under your throttle pedal)




cheers,

Jeroen

Let me reiterate my post.. Which you didnt seem to bother reading...




How much money do you plan on spending?[SIZE=7]

Answer that. please...


Now... We dont mind turbo 4's... See anyone dissing Fiids subaru turbo project? No....
Heck we dont even mind super high hp engine's... One guy is running 915hp in a TT SBC....


And NO, suspension and brakes dont come "later" they come IMEDIATELY AFTER, because you WILL need them or else you'll break something or do something bad....

Its like what Porsche did when they turbocharged the 944... They didnt just slap on a turbo... If you do something to one part of the car, it changes another part of the car... They did everything from a 944 to a turbo... Aerodynamics, brakes, suspension, tires, trani, ect.

You will in the end do alot more to the car than you originally plan... Therefore why not start with a car that someone's done alot to already? Then just swap in your engine?

Me either. Everybody loves an early 911S, and what was it? A small displacement high-reving "peaky" rocket.

Grab tools and get to work. People will stop flippin you sh*t after you post a few project pictures to show you're not all talk.

-Ben M. (counting down to a marathon 914 modifiaction weekend of my own)

I new it got good once I saw the hits on this generic named thread.
Although money usually dictates what you go with, advice utilized does effect the end result. Got cash, do it. Big plans, then save the money and the drama.

That pretty much describes me right now. absorbing all the knowledge I can before tackling the rustbucket...
Is there any way to speed up the acceptance process, though? Or is being a 944 owner a bad mark on my record

Just kidding... i'm a happy lurker.

We're all dreamers to varing degrees. Some actually convert their dreams to parts "flying in formation".

"Acceptance" by the group isn't the key(as I see it), rather, do you accept this group....warts & all... and want to keep coming back.

Some times the flag pops up.....just like in real life

We're a bunch of kids at heart. Pictures. This crowd loves pictures. You post a couple of before-and-after shots of your repair/restoration/modification handy work and you're in like a back-stage pass. You'll have people emailing asking YOU questions before you can say torque-wrench.

4 types around here*:

People who like 914's
Boys/Girls who own 914's
Men/Women who race 914's
Ledgends who build 914's.


-Ben M.

944's are cool...

We have 2 turbo's.. SoloRacer has a turbo, and some other have 944's, and 928's..Dere great!

We dont speak of the 9elebens though.. Except when there parts cars.. There great!!

I agree with Andyrew:

HOW MUCH MONEY DO YOU PLAN ON SPENDING?

It also seems like $7000 is a lot for a car with questionable rust.

But if you can throw buckets of money at it, knock yourself out.

john

even starting with a $2k roller, this is easily going to be a $15k-$25k project (new parts/no labor/diy-except the engine) if done "right".

roller ~2k
rust repair ~1k
cage/stiffening 0-2k
paint???? 2-6k
engine 5-10k???
tranny 4-7k???
conversion shit (radiator, etc.) 1-2k
interior 1k
wheels/tires 1k+
suspension 2k
and tons of misc shit ($$$$$$)

if you've got mad skills and patience to slowly aquire parts, don't mind using used parts, or don't care how 'finished' the final result is, you could cut those costs in half or more.

i say go for it, have a blast! people aren't giving you shit because your project stinks. they're giving you shit because expectations-without-the-research attitude. but, once you tear into your project, people will give you respect.

sammy

I've been driving a 914, or another for damned near 24 years, or something. I've had them all 1.7 ,1.8, 2.0, 383/425 heh, and fantasized about everything else, including a fire sale on a twin turbo 935 motor for $22k once..

A BMW motor would be violating the Prime Objective.

If you have $50,000, and a tub to start will, go for it. Make sure you save along the way, cause your going to need another $20k to finish it 'just right'.


M

the more i think about it, the more cents you plan makes. a big motor first is def the way to approach the project. if you have your heart set on a bmw engine, howsabout a V-12? the new brakes, clutch, konis, springs, bushings, fresh transmission, cv joints(going nla) and other upgrades are the LAST items you want to worry about. in fact, buy all new seals and paint it first. that way you'll have a great looking car setting in the garage for a year or 3. don't be offended. we just have a lot of experience with "gonna do that" projects on our cars. get an ebay roller, don't worry about the rust, the longs, the hell hole, the rust, the rear suspension ears, the rust, the bondo, the rust, the wiring, or the cracked windshield. did i mention don't worry about the rust? you'll have a pretty nice $12k car, that you might sell for $9k, for $40K.

kevin

WUH HAPPIN? No more posts? Give up?

what's to post?

once again, the choices are:

big 4
Porsche 6
V8

which covers stuff for which there is prior engineering, and

something else, you're on your own.

it's your car, do what you want.

oh - and "don't tell me, show me"

that about cover it ?