Oh yeah, and added 'dots' to the long list of things to be aware of a long time ago

perhaps when the p guys are done this 'story' can end. enough all ready. it's not like they were in the school lunchroom and got shot in the face with a shotgun. now, that's a story THAT SHOULD NEVER END!!! people die in car wrecks every fucking day.

Personally, I don't think using someone's death is a good way to grandstand about one's hatred of Hollywood. I get what you all are saying, trust me. But I'm not sure what all the ill will is towards this guy in particular. What they were doing was stupid and I think if Rodas or Walker were still here, they would agree - they paid the price. I agree that celebrities receive far too much attention, but I think in some small amount the attention around P.W. was that he might *actually* have been a good human being.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-25...dding-ring.html

http://www.kxly.com/news/spokane-news/two-...mc/-/index.html

http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2013/dec/17/.../#axzz2oFH4xZRj

and on and on..............

I agree. He was a very cool guy. Not unlike most of the guys who go to WCR or RRC. Loved cars. Was genuinely excited when he saw a car he liked. I met him with a friend who is a factory drift car engine builder. We didn't even realize who he was for probably 5 minutes.
I don't watch television. I don't find it entertaining at all. I do watch movies though, and I have enjoyed the F&F series. I'm not alone either, last year, my mother-in-law asked for one of the F&F movies for Christmas. What kind of fool automatically assumes that because someone enjoys action adventure movies that they worship hollywood? Do you need to drink 3 shots before you can cloud your brain enough to post?
Some of the statements made here have been beyond ridiculous. Who is he and why should I care? Umm, because you're human? What in the freakin' world does people not getting married until they're in their 30's have to do with this discussion? And more so, why would anyone say "well said" when it sounds like a drunken diatribe?
Someone died. They were human and a father, son, boyfriend etc. Simple human compassion is why you should care. Statements like they shouldn't have been speeding are really only your way of feeling superior since each of you has driven over the posted limit as well...
I started this thread because a pretty cool guy that I had once met, who did good things in his life and raced a Porsche died in a Carrera GT. If I had known it would bring out all this I'd have let you read about it in the news...
I agree. Close the thread.

Please.

I think if you had added that context to the thread at the beginning it would have been helpful to even my posts.

What struck me....and btw I don't watch TV either is .....how everyone jumps to blame something or the mundane rather than take personal responsibility for their own actions.

That was my point in making the posts. I can assure you however I was perfectly sober at the time.

Rob, I sincerely apologize if I offended you.

Merry Christmas to you and your family.

Rob

I'm glad my " drunken diatribe " was above your comprehension. It would seem a few others were drunk when they read it since they understood and agreed with it. My comment that you quoted has to do with the fact that the people in this country have determined what is and isn't acceptable based on what the media,which hollywood is a large part of, shows them to be so, not what human history has shown to be so. You obviously didn't comprehend my statement. There was no alcohol involved, nor was there any mental disability ( on my part ) your comprehension was on the short side. Your high and mighty attitude that we should all feel the same way as you do about some guy we have never met and has no influence on our lives, IMHO shows your enamorment with someone famous who also happens to like the things you do, thus validating your opinion of something. ( yes that was a run on sentence, but again, no alcohol was involved ) My " drunken diatribe " was in response to people falling all over this particular person because he loved cars, had a charity and wasn't a dick. So what? there are millions of people out there you'll never hear of that die every day, and no one gives a shit about. Why are these two so much better that they deserve all this attention ? Because they were in the limelight, plain and simple. I'm pretty sure that was why Andy asked why he should care. I'm done here unless bullshit statements are leveled at me again

This will be closed in a few minutes, I'm sure. But I understand both where Scotty is coming from and where Rob are coming from.

It's one of those things just kind of polarizes people I guess. I care about PW's death because it's personally relevant, and I think the story should be told (perhaps not for days on end) because it might wake at least a couple dumbass kids up and keep them from making a similar mistake. At least one can only hope.

Perhaps this isn't fair for me to use as an example as I wasn't alive, but a lot of people were really bummed for days on end when John Lennon died. Will the same be true for Yoko Ono? Just one of them things I guess. We live in a society wrapped up in celebrity. First world problems.

Yeah close it.

Or Obama's birth certificate may turn up in church with tea party IRS agents giving guns to laser guided whales destoying the earth through global warming pollution, and beer girls.

It's all Dick Cheney's fault

Yes, but how long should people wait to get married?

Your lack of comprehension is astounding.

My point exactly.

I just don't understand how someone who pretends to be someone else for a living is somehow elevated to a higher moral level than real people with real lives.
And on top of that somehow becomes a role model because of the fictional characters they pretended to be in a movie made for your entertainment.

I'm sorry but none of that computes in my brain ...

I don't think anyone elevated him morally, at least in this conversation, because he was an actor. But I do believe he did make the best of his influence and gave back where he could... at least a hell of a lot more than the fucking Kardashians.

What about Steve McQueen? He's elevated to God-like status among car guys, but morally he wasn't a "Straight-A" student. Still one of my favorites though.

carrera gt=the new corvair? where's ralph nader when you need him?

This is where I think the disconnect is in this discussion. No one in the discussion has elevated anyone morally or held them to a lower standard behavior wise. His job was being an actor. Respectable work I suppose. I don't see though where the leap is in this discussion to people worshipping him or actors in general.

My point was that he was a car guy just like many of us, who showed up like many of us at things like cars and coffee, EuroSunday etc, he walked around looking at the cars and talking to the other car guys as if he was one of them (which he was - my point) he didn't stand around like HE was the attraction. He had a charity like lots of other celebrities. But unlike a lot of other celebrities he showed up and worked in Haiti, in th Phillipines. He moved debris, he learned to give shots, he changed bandages, right along side the volunteers. If he was an undeserving celebrity, he used it for good.

I get your points about people and celebrities but one of you is over generalizing that point to all people which isn't valid. I can only speak for me when I say that I think a lot of celebrities are stupid and talentless, the Kardashians are a good example. I don't think I'm alone in that feeling either so when you contribute to this discussion by implying that I and others only find this interesting because he is a celebrity you're just wrong.

This is where I think the disconnect is in this discussion. No one in the discussion has elevated anyone morally or held them to a lower standard behavior wise. His job was being an actor. Respectable work I suppose. I don't see though where the leap is in this discussion to people worshipping him or actors in general.

My point was that he was a car guy just like many of us, who showed up like many of us at things like cars and coffee, EuroSunday etc, he walked around looking at the cars and talking to the other car guys as if he was one of them (which he was - my point) he didn't stand around like HE was the attraction. He had a charity like lots of other celebrities. But unlike a lot of other celebrities he showed up and worked in Haiti, in th Phillipines. He moved debris, he learned to give shots, he changed bandages, right along side the volunteers. If he was an undeserving celebrity, he used it for good.

I get your points about people and celebrities but one of you is over generalizing that point to all people which isn't valid. I can only speak for me when I say that I think a lot of celebrities are stupid and talentless, the Kardashians are a good example. I don't think I'm alone in that feeling either so when you contribute to this discussion by implying that I and others only find this interesting because he is a celebrity you're just wrong.

I've been staying away from this thread until Paul Walker was brought up at a Christmas Party over the weekend - still making news everywhere. Why? Probably for the same reason I still hear about James Dean's death - an American obsession with keeping up with the famous (dead or alive) be it Hollywood, sports, politics, etc.

Let me ask this, just a few days before Dale Earnhardt died, two Army H-60 helicopters collided and crashed in Hawaii killing six between the two aircraft. The dead, most of them younger than me, gave everything to help keep us employed and running around having fun in our cars. Who remembers that crash? Probably very few given the small mention in received in the news. Yet Dale Earnhardt received memorial ceremonies across the country.

Yes, it's sad two people died out of carelessness, it's sad that a charitable person died, but if he wasn't famous and still had the money/time to be charitable, would we have this thread?

My two cents worth, now back to delivering Christmas cookies in the teener...

What's Paul Walker and Steve Irwin got in common?

They both got killed by a fish tail

What is missing is how the guy got to be celeb in the first place: showing kids how great it is to drive beyond recklessly. The movies can have whatever happy ending that seems to negate that, but that is the story that comes through. Drive fast and furious. Go ahead, they owe it to you. The innocent people driving kids to school just got in the way of you glorious need for speed.

So that is what made the money. Blood money. No matter how down to earth, as though an actor has something to be condescending about in the first place; no matter how many charities they take part in, they sold out to teen age deaths, about which we will never hear of.

Now, can we get back to what justifies this thread in the first place? How the car lost control?

Btw, if that valentine guy on the back of pano gets run over, i will be the first on the scene blaming him... Maybe we all do it, but it makes me creeped to see pca supporting him.

I'm afraid that is a really good point. We have to treat any high performance car that we drive on the streets as a deadly weapon.

That is a great point. After reading several different articles in the past few months of Pano, PCA pretty much flat out condones doing 10+ over on public roads. They should be encouraging more people to keep it on the track. No doubt after the bad pub Porsche is getting from this event, things will tone down a little bit.

I had seen movie trailers, but only recently saw one of the F&F movies (when my nephew was staying with us this past summer). However, I could always tell when a new F&F movie had been released ... the streets and freeways were loaded with reckless rice-rockets.

Some schmuck almost took my wife and I out on the 405 freeway one afternoon - three of these dickwads were darting in and out of lanes at a high rate of speed. One of them forced his way into the space in front of us in the carpool lane

My wife called the CHP with his plate # and the descriptions of all three vehicles involved. Never heard if they were caught or not, but I'll bet at least one of them has probably been involved in a serious collision at some point or another.

As for the celebrities, too many actors involve themselves with scripts that are detrimental to a safe society, then turn around and scream out against those same issues in real life (gun violence, for an example). Shoot 'em up in the movies all day long, but they're the same assholes that turn around and jump on the bandwagon to have honest Americans disarmed!

No one can't change my mind on the matter, 'Hollywood' is definitely responsible for a lot of the ills we face in our daily lives.

There was a Paul Walker tribute car meet here in San Antonio on Sunday. Supposedly 3,000 cars and bikes showed up. I would have steered clear if I had known it was going on. I took off on the Harley early afternoon for a cruise out in the country. Tons of ricers and bikes buzzing around in town. Way more than usual. On my way back into town later there were wrecks all over the place. Highway was shut down going the opposite way because of one. Found a Facebook link about the meet and there are a bunch of videos including some of the wrecks. The traffic was so backed up because of these turds it was unbelievable. Douchebags parking on the side of the road to shoot video of their friends as they went by doing burnouts, bikes doing wheelies, and all sorts of other bs. The cops had their hands full.

Worn,
What does Mike Valentine ( "Btw, if that valentine guy on the back of pano gets run over, i will be the first on the scene blaming him... Maybe we all do it, but it makes me creeped to see pca supporting him.") have to do with this? Mike makes and sells on of the best products in the industry. He is a long time Porsche Owner and member of PCA.

Van

This morning's LA Times report on the accident. Well, maybe "accident" isn't the right word, I'm sure there are others that more appropriately describe the event.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-l...y#axzz2pMcK322a

The Cap'n

stability control delete option?

"Both Rodas' and Walker's bodies were found braced for impact in a "pugilistic" stance.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-l...y#ixzz2pNCdoRGo
"

That is a common way burned corpses are found. I wish I did not know that....

The connection is that both promote(d) driving outside the law. It just seems too blatant. I mean he is trying to get you to start a fighter pilot fantasy behind the wheel as though you were the good guys and the law enforcement was a *bogey * Just like the F and F was a fantasy that some make real and deadly to those minding their own business. End of rant and certainly not to be taken personally.

Gotta ask: late reports say the car was doing 100+, Shouldn't the air bags have saved them ?

But McQueen was a Racer, who almost went Bankrupt from making the Best Movie EVER! And he was a Real Actor!

Click to view attachment

Not really. Airbags have their limitations, and as such aren't a save-all solution for the terminally stupid and their passengers. Like a firemen's net, you hit it from the 90th floor and you're gonna go right through it. Slowing from 100 MPH to zero in 10, 20, 30 feet is gonna overload the capabilities of the airbag, especially at an angle.

The Cap'n

so it's a case of driver error. a couple of 'look at us everybody!' idiots. with regards to a potential lawsuit porsche SHOULD be off the hook.

More the other way around, actually: His company is an advertiser paying for a space, and thus supports PCA.

By the logic above, anyone offering any performance enhancement of any kind can be criticized, as can Porsche for building fast cars in the first place—914s included. That point might be easily argued by "keep it on the track," but then Porsche street cars don't make much sense, as they are severely compromised as track cars. I guess I take a different view of Porsches: Kept well and driven responsibly, they are safer than most cars because they are better able to avoid incidents thanks to their performance potential. Is that a license to do stupid things? Absolutely not—but Porsches can be enjoyed on road and track intelligently. Sadly, some people make poor choices.

However, I see no need to pull V1 and/or PCA into a discussion about a crash that was the result of a Carrera GT that was determined to have been traveling at more than 100 mph in an urban area. With all due respect to two fellow 914 enthusiasts, doing so on a public forum could be easily interpreted as unnecessary as well as reckless.

That's quite a conclusion to jump to, and a totally erroneous one at that.

But, to your second point, I can think of few entities or car hobby-related organizations in the U.S. (or anywhere, for that matter) that provide more opportunities for people to get their cars out on a closed course—whether track or autocross—while providing driver instruction. PCA also actively supports programs that are trying to both educate and train our teenagers to be better, more responsible drivers ready to react properly should things go wrong out there on the road. Is there a Porsche-related organization doing more to improve driver skill and offering opportunities to drive on a closed course than PCA?

pete

Well stated Pete. What happened to two men in a Porsche could have happened to a number of us. I have driven the Alien cross country at triple digits more than once. All it would take is a deer or a faulty wheel torqueing or trash in the road. We all make decisions that we could end up regretting. Sometime we get a second chance. Sometimes we don't. My condolences to the families they left behind and the loss of their good charity work. We can all learn something from this. Be safe out there gents.

Huh?

I joined PCA in 1986. Every driving event I've ever attended was quite the opposite of this. In fact, shortly after moving here (Intermountain Region) the "Tour Chair" was let go (as in fired) when his Moab tour achieved speeds in excess of a buck-twenty. I've led over 1/2 dozen PCA tours and I'm signed up to lead more in Monterey... I know not of what you speak. In my safety talk, I informed all of my tour groups that we would probably be going "under" the speed limit. My little speech is "We're ambassadors for Porsche and we're on their (the host city) turf. Drive like you're supposed to."

Are we reading the same Pano? Or, is it because there's a radar detector ad in the magazine that they all of the sudden "condone doing 10+ over on public roads"?

Don't buy a Sports Car, buy a Prius, If your at all addicted to speed

The point missing is that the sole purpose of the object being advertised is breaking the law undetected. To me the device is like a fake id or burglary tools, and it shows up in the flagship spot of my club. Personally, i am ashamed of that. As i would be were my bread made encouraging kids to drift around town. The Porsche is now being made with breaking the law in mind since they are so fast, and that certainly is a problem to be dealt with, and a complex one. But with 75% of drivers thinking that they have considerably above average driving skills, well i drive a very small car. Even at minus twent, though it will be a ford then. The cars here look like salty ghosts.
I am really sorry if this offended you, sad that i opened my mouth.

It's not just Porsche, it's any vehicle manufacturer, and they don't necessarily need to be high performance vehicles. Several TV commercials depict driving well over the normal speed limits.

Lots of 'sporty' car commercials do it. I think the first time I really noticed was way back when Nissan started airing 300 'Z' commercials where the guy with the gravely voice stated 'you own the road'

Remember, Mazda had their - zoom, zoom campaign?

I'm sure that aggressive driving and speeding have been around ever since cars started being built, but for advertisers/manufacturers to broadcast such actions only increases ones propensity to speed on our public streets - by saying hey, it's OK.

As for performance accessories, many if not all manufacturers limit their liability by stating that their products are for off-road vehicles. When we used to design and manufacture custom motorcycle components (chassis, tree systems and air suspension systems), they were sold with a written disclaimer that they were for 'show use only'. This was to absolve us of any personal injury liability issues.

So its okay to watch a movie about street racing and triple digit speeds; but if a magazine states that going 10 MPH over the posted speed limit it's evil?

Wow.

Stupidity kills many more people per day than speed does.

I agree, its 100% stupidity.

We will always be fascinated by tragedy because we are living out our own.

Any media that portrays doing something unsafe, or illegal, really isn't in our [society's] best interests. However, even law enforcement looks the other way sometimes.

I never have checked to see if the F&F or similar movies, or violent (Borne Identity, etc.,) movies carry any disclaimers.

Some producers do state disclaimers at the beginning of documentaries - something like "Professionally trained drivers on a closed-course track", or "Don't try this at home, kiddies" comes to mind.

Jake, as a manufacturer of high performance components and assemblies, I would think you have some sort of liability disclaimer as to real world usage?... no?

Sorry Porsche has Always made Sports Cars - If you haven't gone 10 Over, you need to sell you car & Take the Bus, Gus.

Do you Think Corvette, Viper, Nisson GTR, Audi R8, McLaren, etc that have 600+ HP were designed to do 55?

Do you remember when Escort was a Sponsor of SCCA Racing? Do you think their Target audience was the Racers in the Paddock?

Wow. Some folks seem to be establishing highly unrealistic moral standards—standards that anyone would be hard-pressed to live up to. "Blood money," "glorification of this and that," etc—along with some incredible leaps—are being thrown around here.

I've got bad news for you: If you, like me, are a U.S. citizen, then there are some ugly truths to face (various wars—you be the judge—as well as inaction in critical moments, not to mention grave injustices served up to Native Americans who were here first) along with the stuff we can and should be proud of. But make no mistake: If we're going to own the good, we have to own the bad—which makes us complicit. You can be sure some in the world view us as beneficiaries of far worse crimes than anything portrayed in F&F movies (please note, I am not defending those movies, nor drifting on a public road!). Again, I'll leave that up to you to be the judge.

By the standards ventured here, any media or storytelling that involves anything "bad" or "dangerous" should be a no-go. If these are deemed reasonable standards, I guess I'd better not read police crime novels anymore, or watch Band of Brothers again, or read the Holy Bible, for that matter. Is that the world we want to live in? Maybe we ought to start burning books? Or are most humans intelligent enough to watch/read/view/think about something, possibly enjoy it as entertainment, draw their own conclusions, and then, you know, make responsible decisions?

I'm with T.C.—better take the bus, Gus.

pete

Okay, I hear you on your first point. Not sure I agree that a company's right to promote a product that can be legally used in most states should be limited, but I can respect your view and appreciate it. Your next points are harder to swallow, especially the one about Porsche. In Germany, there are still roads with no speed limits, and the Nürburgring is a toll road, as well. The cars are designed with all of that in mind, as well as occasional track use, back roads, superb daily usability, and top active/passive safety features. Are cars getting too fast? I've been thinking about that myself lately, but I suppose this was an argument in the 1960s, and 1980s, and...now.

You raise a good point about 75% of drivers, and a survey years ago suggested that 85% of Americans felt they were the best driver in their family. Gulp. Personally, I feel we have a much bigger mountain to climb in advancing our driver training and education than we do in limiting the speed of a tiny number of cars on the road and the (largely) responsible enjoyment of those who own them.

Finally, for the record, I don't "flat out condone 10+ over on public roads," and I'd love to know where Pano suggests anything like that. Frankly, there are times when 10 or even 30 under the limit is the fastest one can go safely. Traffic, weather, hazards, vehicle condition, driver error, speed...safety is related to a number of factors—which is why I have always found blanket statements about speed to be, well, ignorant. One survey demonstrated that the fastest 5% and the slowest 10% of traffic were at the highest risk for accidents—meaning "going with the flow" was the safest way to travel. Here in CA, that can be anywhere from 5-25 over the limit (on the freeway). I often can't believe how fast LA traffic moves. I've seen minivans doing 80-90 mph—while traveling with the flow of traffic! Whether the "flow" is at 70-75 in a 65 or 80-85 in a 65, this presents an interesting decision for a driver: safety first, or letter of the law?

While I don't use a radar detector, I can see why some choose to. As always, YMMV.

pete

If you're referring to my post(s), I was simply pointing out that those conditions exist. If you ever wondered why the fabric of our society has become what it has, My bet is that mass media has more than likely played the biggest role in shaping it. Acknowledging that isn't taking anyone's freedom to choose what they will away.

I am not judging anyone for what most of us do with our cars. I do drive over the posted speed limit at times, but not on downtown streets crowded with other vehicles or pedestrians

As for the other issues, totally different topic ... and maybe a little overboard (burning books) ???