The cost of aftermarket throttle bodies is way up there, the bottom of scale we have the CB Performance units which are about $250 each and the rest are easily 2X that about.....

so I swung by the motorcycle salvage yard in Fremont today and picked up these beauties

45mm at the butterfly....they taper down to 42.5mm at the bottom...

includes a nice TPS and injectors...I doubt the injectors flow enough, but who knows, I'll find out once I get the specs....

no idea of what bike they came off of yet.....price was $125

top view:

and a view of the bottom of the assembly:

Dude! BTW that second picture looks like sir andy took it.

i had to hurry up and take the picture, I heard our CEO walking down the hallway

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 21 2005, 11:58 AM)

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Jan 21 2005, 12:55 PM) Dude!  :headbanger:  BTW that second picture looks like sir andy took it. i had to hurry up and take the picture, I heard our CEO walking down the hallway

That's funny!

it's lunch time now, no need to hide my projects

wow, the new throttle bodies sure come close to matching the centerline of the manifolds.......

centerline to centerline measurements:

Top of manifold = 90.78mm

bottom of manifold (mating surface to head) = 86.45mm

Throttle bodies = 89.85mm

opps...here is a picture:

Mike

Are those grooves in the TBs for O-rings. Maybe you could cut a seat in the manifolds and seal them with an O-ring. Use the studs for some sort of clamping rig. Then maybe some selective port matching.

Dave

Using bike TB's like this is a great idea really. A guy at work here is using them to put a stand along on his RX7. They are sort of universal in design. I like it and hope you get something put together! I would love to see it!

I have a TB on my 2.0 that is definitely not stock, but haven't bothered to see who or what. Maybe I'll take a pic of it and post it (It makes my car faster )

Not really an O-ring (putting on my "worked on bikes for 15 years" hat). Bike intake to head manifolds are usually just rubber (or rubber-like) castings, with a lip machined into the inside to catch that groove. I haven't worked on bikes since EFI became commonplace. Those TBs look exactly like a typical set of carbs on any of a number of inline-4 bikes. There are (were) only two manufacturers of carbs on the Japanese bikes: Mikuni and Keihin. I'd be willing to bet money that one of those manufacturers made these TBs.

It would be interesting to know what the flow rate on those injectors are. I'd be willing to bet a set of injectors from a 750-1000cc bike engine would actually be adequate for a stock-ish Type IV. Figure 120-150hp for the bike engine.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 21 2005, 02:40 PM)

QUOTE (DNHunt @ Jan 21 2005, 12:42 PM) Mike Are those grooves in the TBs for O-rings. Maybe you could cut a seat in the manifolds and seal them with an O-ring. Use the studs for some sort of clamping rig. Then maybe some selective port matching. Dave Not really an O-ring (putting on my "worked on bikes for 15 years" hat). Bike intake to head manifolds are usually just rubber (or rubber-like) castings, with a lip machined into the inside to catch that groove. I haven't worked on bikes since EFI became commonplace. Those TBs look exactly like a typical set of carbs on any of a number of inline-4 bikes. There are (were) only two manufacturers of carbs on the Japanese bikes: Mikuni and Keihin. I'd be willing to bet money that one of those manufacturers made these TBs. It would be interesting to know what the flow rate on those injectors are. I'd be willing to bet a set of injectors from a 750-1000cc bike engine would actually be adequate for a stock-ish Type IV. Figure 120-150hp for the bike engine.

James....yep Mikuni throttle bodies.....

I have done this twice! It works...

That size is perfect for the size engine you are doing..

can't you also get TB's with slide valves too? woohoo!

Mueller: What are all of your projects? You seem to have quite a few... Will they all fit in one post?

So mike are you considering breaking up the bank and appling a pair to each side (more work) or modifing runners for a central location & maintaing the linkage and single TPS?

Those look good. What type of injection system are you gonna use with these?


Stephane

I don't really have anything to say, except Cool!

Just got back from the local cycle shop...found out my new throttle bodies came off an '02 or '03 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-12R...rated at 165 horsepower

Who knows, the fuel injectors might just work on my new motor afterall....

You should just use the whole Ninja motor! not!

I think the throttle bodies butterfiles connect together with a common shaft.

You might be able to break them apart, adda a spacer and get them to fit perfectly... then reassemble with a modified shaft.

More good info here...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread....ighlight=itb%2A

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread....vidual+throttle

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread....threadid=179053

SO??? Who's gonna do it?

played with the TB's a little over the weekend...mostly taking them apart somewhat and getting dimensions off of them for different ideas on how to mount them....

adapter ideas:

adapter 1....this one would use a hose (see pic) and a clamp to hold the TB to the plate...the factory method is very similar....

the clamp is a special clamp which is smooth on the inside so that it will not damage the hose.....

as well as clamping it, the TB has a boss on the side which will be used to bolt on a bracket that will bolt onto the plate for more support.......

adapter 2....

this one would have a counterbore for the TB to sit inside, an O-ring groove would help for sealing...after assembled, a 2 part epoxy would be inserted inbetween the TB and the plate..the O-ring would prevent the epoxy from leaking past the bottom of the TB.

once again, the TB would also be bolted to the adapter via the bracket attaching to the protrusion on the TB...

Nice designs Mike.

Those look much shorter that the TWM units, don't they?

We'd better keep you away from the motorcycle folks, otherwise they will steal you away from the Bay area, put you in Japan designing stuff for them.

My only question is air. On adapter 1 will the rubber band thing be tight enough, with a clamp, to eliminate air getting sucked in, or does that make any difference?

Adapter one! Go with what the factory did.

How is the stapler going to be mounted?

rubber:

well they use rubber boots on turbo setups all the time....i would think rubber would be ok in a low pressure/vaccuum zone

the hose and clamp are designed for turbocharged applications so I have no worries about it...the second plate would be cheaper....the hose (which I already bought) is $25 per foot (min. 1 foot), the stainless steel clamps are $4 each (only bought one so far)

not shown is that the adapter plates will be drilled and tapped and bolted to the manifolds from underneath the manifold....

the hardest part will be making the throttle linkage.....

the stapler is for me to hit myself with if I keep taking things apart and not making progress, LOL

Hey Mike
The size of the injector hole/mounts, is this a standard automotive size, or will it be machined to fit ??
This should work, when you get the mounting figured out.
My vote is #1, the simpler the better, less things to go wrong...
later
Joe

the seal on the end of the injectors looks very close the stock 914 injectors, however the motorcycle injectors are nice and short...I will be using them..they flow enough for 165+ horsepower so I'll be okay for now......

these going on the turbo motor or the stroker?

Hey Mike,

Those Wakisaki throttles look great! Let us all know how it works out!

With my workload and the imminent expansion of the family unit, I didn't have the time to engineer other TB's to fit, so I broke down and bought the TWM's. But, the good thing is I wound up paying a little less than I would have paid for the cheap cast throttles from CB-Perf. If anyone's thinking of going the way of ITB's, look a the big pony car shops. They deal in volume, so I guess that's why they're more than 30% cheaper than TWM...

So, the project continues (slowly), TB's are on the way, and I guess I'll be ordering the MSII when it's available...

This is going to be the most non-stock looking, stock motor in a 914...

-Josh2

both......

QUOTE

is $25 per foot

That's pretty cost effective, i.e., a foot will do 3 cars, right?

Sure glad I have a set of those NTB's beauties as well!

Mike,

You might consider the stock bike manifold rubber bonded aluminum adapters. I'm willing to bet they are a two-bolt pattern type with the correct coupling for the throttle bodies. Transfer the bolt pattern to your manifolds, and you're good-to-go. You may be able to find these aftermarket as well.

Andy

Brilliant Mike... Keep us informed with your progress... In Japan there are many exporters of late model bikes and components shipping worldwide (cheap). If your project works, I may be able to help source throttle bodies for you. I will visit Japan again in late Sept.

Dan

throttle linkage cant be too hard.

mike i had an idea. CB performance sells hex bar linkages that inetgrate into their air cleaner base. its a ~.5" thick piece of cast AL with a post that the linkage pivots off of. can you not use this as the plate for which your TB's will sit on?

another thing. does LINK require a MPS type deal? you going to tap each manifold for a vacccuum port?

I've looked at the intake flange you speak of.......I cannot find them used (normally sold with the motor)...and brand new they are $35.99 each.....(I'd need 4 of those puppies...ouch)




Dan,

I would be nice to have it so that minimal machining needs to be done, this way it would open the door for more conversions.....I'm sure it'll work, just how much effort it'll be is another story

Cool. I'm doing the same thing using Suzuki GSXR throttle bodies on a Ford Ztech engine going into a Lotus Seven replica. If you want to see some other people's projects check out some of the links in the thread at :

http://www.d-series.org/forums/showthread....57&page=1&pp=20

They're ricers, but it all works the same. You're right that the big boo is going to be the linkage. It's lots easier on an inline engine. The common way to get them onto manifolds is using silicone hose and clamps on manifold stubs, the way they were attached to the bike motor, but that won't keep the carbs rigid enough to keep them in sync using VW/914 style manifolds. You might want to check out using dual carb type cable linkage for a BMW R-series motorcycle or, if I remember right, some older British sports cars like Spitfires and TR-3's. Seems the cable might be easier.

I was wondering what happened to this project. This is a cool low buck setup. K.I.S.S. Mike. This will work. Don't try to re-invent the wheel. Just make it work. I have a good 1.7 I would love to try this on.

QUOTE (Mueller @ May 24 2005, 03:31 PM)

QUOTE (andys @ May 24 2005, 03:58 PM) Mike, You might consider the stock bike manifold rubber bonded aluminum adapters. I'm willing to bet they are a two-bolt pattern type with the correct coupling for the throttle bodies. Transfer the bolt pattern to your manifolds, and you're good-to-go. You may be able to find these aftermarket as well. Andy I've looked at the intake flange you speak of.......I cannot find them used (normally sold with the motor)...and brand new they are $35.99 each.....(I'd need 4 of those puppies...ouch)

Mike,

I'll have to dig through some stuff in hope of finding an aftermarket source for the boot adapters. In my mind, I can still visualize the catalog page showing them; it's just been a lot of years since I messed with this stuff. Try Dennis Kirk, or Chaparral. That internally molded-in o-ring for the rubber boot is a must have in order to keep the throttle body from popping off, though I have seen people use a short straight section of hose with clamps....not pretty.


Andy

Andy,

I think a brace similar to the green one here should work to hold the TB's in place along with the hose/clamp parts.

Mike - Can you make adapter 2 out of the same metal as the TBs and if so couldn't could you just bronze or weld the two together?

Mike,

Looks good! You need the rigid mount to facillitate the throttle linkage anyway.

That Solidworks?

Andy

I've thought about welding them on the very most bottem section, but I only have a MIG which is not set up for aluminum and I don;t think I trust myself using my oxy-acet. setup

TIG would be best but they'll still have to be positioned darn near perfect.....

brazing might work, but I still would worry about the heat since the walls are pretty thin on the TB's

Andy,

Pro/E...drawing not as pretty as it could be, but I'm trying not to spend too much time on this project....

Mike, I'm probably going to be buying a TIG setup very soon.

Really???

cool....you are getting one that is AC/DC correct??
The cheaper DC only units are not recommended for aluminum.

I've been thinking of buying one, but I cannot justify the cost....I'd be willing to throw some money your way to help "invest" in the welder