QUOTE (Steve_7x @ Jan 24 2005, 05:07 PM)

A very late suggestion... if we wish to handicap by points why don't we use a system that already had a lot of thought go into it. Namely the system that GGR is dry running this year.

hi steve

glad you're in! i've had a good time watching you run last season -- guys: prepared to get schooled! the ulfster had better be hungry indeed.

i thought about using the proposed ggr points system. as a system for all models of porsche, i think it will do an okay job (jury's still out i suppose -- they've got my 2.0 running against 996 turbos (wtf?)), but i don't think it accounts too particularly well for 914's as a whole. there are somethings that IMHO it penalizes too much, other things not enough. particularly for AX.

i tried to do something more specific 914s, particularly relatively stock and only slightly modified cars.

i'm actually really glad that people are debating this stuff, but it feels like we've got a fair amount of concensus for the rules as they exist on page 1. please: i'd suggest that we focus on tweaking what we've got, as opposed to starting from scratch.

If we're using SCCA as a benchmark, my car is DSP, and the second car will be either Emod or Dmod, depending upon if we can loose 100lbs or so. I don't think we'll challenge Paul for the lightest 914 on the planet, but at somewhere just north of 1600lbs and 180-200 or so hp...

QUOTE

except maybe trekkor's car -- i think it needs more points

I've gone over the rules over and over...still 265

I added non-stock cam, too.

BTW, we run a big group with GGR, but half the events I'll run will be at Marina with LPR. Maybe 50 drivers there.
I think it will be fun to see the results after the first couple of months.

KT

i know -- just giving you shit, trek!

yup, i too am interested in seeing what my "marina" vs. "alameda" standings will be.

QUOTE (brant @ Jan 24 2005, 05:16 PM)

but I kinda like the idea of racing where the primary factor is power to weight..

Thanks for the respect, I think.

I totally agree with regard to power to weight. A 3.0 and a 3.6 are not the same thing and should not have the same point value.

I went back through and added EVERYTHING that could possibly apply to my car (even non-stock cams when the 3.6 does have the factory cams).

I had neglected to add points for FG bumpers and valences. The only other things I could have are non-stock sway bars, short geared tranny (? I have a 915 w/8:31?) and 305 slicks.

How in the f*ck did Steve_7x get to 605!

My new total is 485. Let's make it 500 for good measure.

....and you guys don't even know if I can drive. (actually, I'm a track guy and have very little experience with AX, so you guys are gonna kill me)

QUOTE (914RS @ Jan 24 2005, 07:09 PM)

I totally agree with regard to power to weight. A 3.0 and a 3.6 are not the same thing and should not have the same point value.

great, this is the type of feedback i need.

new /6 rules:

Displacement (6 cyl)
2.0 = +45
2.01-2.3 = +60
2.31-2.6 = +75
2.7-2.9 = +90
3.0 = +100
3.2 = +125
3.6+ = +150


Steve's car is insane. totally clean, light, sorted, and FAST. watching how it accelerates out of turns is mind-boggling. you can see it "slingshot" foward.

As Demick pointed out in a related thread, any 6 that is not a original 914-6 2.0, has non stock cams. ( unless you are running them , 911t )

KT

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 24 2005, 07:27 PM)

Steve's car is insane. totally clean, light, sorted, and FAST. watching how it accelerates out of turns is mind-boggling. you can see it "slingshot" foward.

"The bottle" will do that for ya ....or was that the other 914 roller skate?

The 6 er deal don't matter much, tho. Most are already in S Mod.......and ya gotta dance with the girl that brung ya.

The Hp to weight is fairly importan, but not the determining factor in AX. If that were the case, we'd all go home when the Z06 torque monsters showed up. There are a couple local Z06s that beat me regular....that's cause they're better drivers. The rest are dog meat.
Another guy I can't beat is that "pesky Miata"......no power to speak of, but he drives the wheels off it......a C Street Prepared car ......140-150 hp & 2000lbs.

QUOTE (Paul Heery @ Jan 24 2005, 09:52 AM)

"Hey you stupid bastard, you missed me!"

I wouldn't have put it that way, but I did post my points and class on page 4 of this thread. With the change to tires size points I dropped to 195 points for my car. I'm a bit surprised it isn't more.

QUOTE

and yes, trash talking is a requirement    !

In that same post I had also proposed a personal challenge to Aaron which he has chosen to ignore. Must be chicken I guess?

One other requirement should be that all competitiors need to post a picture of their cars.

Hey Sean - are you gonna step up and design and produce a 914 Cup decal? I know you have the artistic talent plus the vinal cutter to do the job.

OK, I take back the 15 points I gave for good measure and add the fresh 50 points for my 3.6.

New total 535.

JP is right about having to dance with your girl. Mine will be having her first season since the refit, and I think we'll be spending a lot of late nights together in the garage.

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Jan 24 2005, 07:54 PM)

The Hp to weight is fairly importan, but not the determining factor in AX. If that were the case, we'd all go home when the Z06 torque monsters showed up.

this was my thought, but i wanted someone with more AX experience to speak up.

i think that there is a point in a car's development where adding power gives you (logarhythmically) less and less gain. at some point, it comes down to driver.

hopefully, in competing with each other, this thing will give us each the initiative to get a little faster in our respective regions. that's my goal, at least.

QUOTE (trekkor @ Jan 24 2005, 07:50 PM)

As Demick pointed out in a related thread, any 6 that is not a original 914-6 2.0, has non stock cams. ( unless you are running them , 911t ) KT

correct. thanks trek/demick

if you have e.g. a 3.2 /6, then you've got non-stock cams and non-stock induction in addition to the displacement points

I don't know about my induction, however. My engine has the same carbs as a stock SIX. Weber 40 IDA 3C.

KT

Fun reading this discussion.

And, based upon the postings, I finally see the elements to make the perfect handicap for AX.

Power to weight ratio (formalized) handicapped against times.

It would be expensive to do and hard to control, but it would work in a perfect world.

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 24 2005, 08:07 PM)

if you have e.g. a 3.2 /6, then you've got non-stock cams and non-stock induction in addition to the displacement points

If that's the case then you better give me 35 more points.
The FI and Cam I have are stock to the 3.0 motor, but not stock to a 914/6.
I'm not sure but my flywheel is probably lightned so add 5 more.
Make my new total 235.

QUOTE (trekkor @ Jan 24 2005, 08:21 PM)

I don't know about my induction, however. My engine has the same carbs as a stock SIX. Weber 40 IDA 3C. KT

yeah. you're fine on the carbs trek.

as he noted, vegasracer adds points because his FI (and cam) is not stock to a 914/6. doesn't matter that they may be stock to a 1980 SC.

if vegasracer ran trekkor's carbs, he would not be penalized.

randal, your posts are cracking me up.

reductio ad absurdum: your car will be handed over to an engineering team to determine classing based on power, gross weight, weight distribution, tire composition analysis, in depth suspension analysis, driver's gross weight, driver's weight distribution, driver's personality (indepth psychoanalysis needed here), etc. etc.

so you might as well show up with a bicycle, you'll have the same chance.

I have tried to keep up with al the details in this thread and I think the biggest factor is the person behind the wheel. I am sure a good driver can make up for a 100 points in any class.

That being said, since yellow cars are always faster they should be docked at least 100 points!

I think 914's stand a good chance at Autocrosses vs Turbo's... especially on those that are shorter twistier... the turbo never gets a chance to spool up. The analogy of bringing a knife to a gunfight... okay a 2004 Twin Turbo is a sword... but just remember the scene in Raiders of the Lost Arc... just takes one bullit ;-)

But I digress. My suggestion was one based on a couple of things... a template that exists and was debated etc...and a form that can be used. Any of the suggestions are good by me... the point is to have fun, and benchrace... where else can grown-ups make car sounds and use their hands indicating a powerslide.

How did I get 600+points... I assumed 350 as a base...

Tires
Competitors running slicks in non-standard tire size must convert sizes and add points accordingly.
http://www.csgnetwork.com/tireinfo4calc.html

*Competitors running slicks must run in S-Mod,
at a minimum of 350 points. If the competitor's
class-points do not add up to at least 350 points,
they must nonetheless report 350 points for all
purposes of classing.

Suspension
non-stock rear springs/torsion bars +30
non-stock sway bar +30


Interior
Interior has been substantially gutted and lightened = +20
Race Seat = +10

Body/Frame
car has been lightened by replacing body panels or bumpers with non-stock parts (fiberglass, carbon fiber, etc.) = +10 per body panel (4 fenders, both hoods, both bumpers) = 80

car has been stiffened substantially by tying together suspension points (long kits are okay) = +20 - not clear on this... my roll cage ties to the front shock towers so I included

Transmission
LSD = +40

Engine/Flywheel/Exhaust/Induction/etc.

Displacement (4cyl)
2.0 = +30
Non-stock or improved Carbs* = +15
(this includes all dual carbs on T4's)

Cams (ALL CARS with internal combustion engines):*
non-stock = +20

Flywheel (All Cars):
lightened = +5

Forced Induction (All Cars):

Exhaust (All 4cyl and 6cyl):
headers: +15

= 665 points

So if I don 't baseline with 350 points for cantilever slicks... (23x9x15) - what is the correct tire baseline?

350 isnt a baseline for guys with slicks...

Its just a minumum.... IF you run slicks, your in Smod...

Your at 315 plus your tires.... So you run slicks with (god I dont know what that is... I'll guess 245's...)... and your in at +150 for slicks and +40 for tire width with an overall score of 505 (ish)

That clear that up any?

QUOTE (Steve_7x @ Jan 24 2005, 11:19 PM)

So if I don 't baseline with 350 points for cantilever slicks... (23x9x15) - what is the correct tire baseline?

no need to assume 350 as a base.

your tires should set you back 180 (150 for tire type; 30 for tire size), then add up the rest and report. but, if it all adds up to less than 350, then you must nonetheless report 350.

i'll clarify chassis stiffening.


lmao about the sword vs the bullet...

QUOTE

randal, your posts are cracking me up.

Glad to provide the comedy.

Stock = 0-99 points
Improved = 100-250 points
Modified = 251-349 points
Super Modified=350+
Club ID	Class	Points
mike_the_man	Stock	60
jimtab	Stock	70
itsa914	Stock	80
Paul Heery (PCA)	Stock	80
Paul Heery (SCCA)	Stock	80
grantsfo	Stock	85
David Hildebrandt (Dave-O)	Stock	95
xsboost90	Improved	115
McMark	Improved	120
Aaron Cox	Improved	190
roundboy914	Improved	200
Dman	Improved	205
Rough_Rider	Improved	215
Dave Parsons (OttoX914) – 1	Improved	225
Demick	Improved	225
Joe Ricard	Improved	230
jdogg	Improved	235
VegasRacer	Improved	235
Andyrew	Improved	245
lagunero	Improved
trekkor	Modified	265
nathan breitling (PCA)	Modified	270
joseph222	Modified	300
bwilless	Modified
carr914	Super Modified	360
one914racer	Super Modified	360
URY914	Super Modified	375
SirAndy	Super Modified	390
Randal	Super Modified	435
r_towle	Super Modified	440
J P Stein (PCA)	Super Modified	480
J P Stein (SCCA)	Super Modified	480
Dave Parsons (OttoX914) – 2	Super Modified	490
Steve_7x	Super Modified	505
914RS	Super Modified	535
Bill Pickering (aka "nine14cats")	Super Modified	545
Doris Pickering	Super Modified	545
lapuwali
monkei
Otmar
Porsche Rescue
spare time toys

Here is the latest.

I'm going to throw a suggestion out there to see what people think. What about raising the points required for Super Modified to 400? That would move Andy and Paul with their highly-modded 4s out of the class with the big 6s. And, they could kick Trekkor's butt with his puny six.

I'm in at 200 pts.

I like the 400 pt cutoff for MOD.

Also, A bio thread with car and driver pics and specs would be cool

KT

QUOTE (trekkor @ Jan 25 2005, 04:13 PM)

Also, A bio thread with car and driver pics and specs would be cool

it's in the works ...

be patient, grasshopper ...
Andy

The reason I am still a blank is that I don't yet know what I will drive this season. My "fleet" is in transition at the moment. Actually I want JP to lay awake nights worrying about the killer car I am going to buy/build to compensate for my lack of driving skill, thus allowing me to catch him. Is there a car that fast?

maybe i should set myself up for modified... less competition there

One little note on the car vs driver issue. At our final PCA event last fall a gentleman with more than a little experience from another region showed up with a very nice YELLOW GT3. He finished behind a fuel injected '73 2.0 914 with Hoosiers and Konis.

yeah--but what color was the 914?



aaron: do it. i'd love to beat you.

Here's what I'm waiting for:

If I get beat by a FOUR it's gonna be, " Ha-ha, FOUR beats SIX! "

When I spank the FOURS silly, it'll be " What'd ya expaect, ya got a SIX?"

Hmmmm.....

KT

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 25 2005, 07:17 PM)

yeah--but what color was the 914? aaron: do it. i'd love to beat you.

send me a header and decklids. ill run circles around you with my stock displacement

oh yeah...the obligatory finger :

First of all, I'm in! Are the tire points per tire or per axle? What if you have 255's on the front and 275's on the rear? How would you point that out?

+70 points....

At least thats how I did mine.

Is that correct???

Ie....


I second the above question.

yup, +70 points. sorry.

i think i clarified that in the rules, but i'll double check.

class your tires according to your largest tire size (i.e., the rears).


aaron, don't have decklids, but i'm thinking about it. have to do as much as possible to even out the playing field between trekkor and i! i'll be running a basic carbed 2.0 /4. don't worry, losing hurts the most the first time.

and trekkor: i'll be sure to tape my faster time slips all over your car as i'm beating you. i think you'll be taking your time around the course, trying to just enjoy the sound of that sweet, heavy /6.

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 25 2005, 10:17 PM)

yup, +70 points. sorry. i think i clarified that in the rules, but i'll double check. class your tires according to your largest tire size (i.e., the rears). aaron, don't have decklids, but i'm thinking about it. have to do as much as possible to even out the playing field between trekkor and i! i'll be running a basic carbed 2.0 /4. don't worry, losing hurts the most the first time. and trekkor: i'll be sure to tape my faster time slips all over your car as i'm beating you. i think you'll be taking your time around the course, trying to just enjoy the sound of that sweet, heavy /6.

dude..... can you say cocky? no worries.... maybe we should put some money on this? but none of this damn handicap

talkin' shit is half the fun dood


i'm down for a friendly wager: you can bet 90cents to my dollar on PAX results, but your points are still handicapped per event per rules since you run w/ such a small group.

i'm up for anything to motivate me to be faster.

Nathan, I'm thinking we find a way for you to ride along with me. Thattaway, when I get the hot lap, you can hold my time slip 'til we get back to the paddock.

QUOTE (trekkor @ Jan 25 2005, 10:26 PM)

Nathan, I'm thinking we find a way for you to ride along with me. Thattaway, when I get the hot lap, you can hold my time slip 'til we get back to the paddock.

ouch -- that's a good one, trekkor

so, is MOD cutoff at 400 pts?

KT

QUOTE (Porsche Rescue @ Jan 25 2005, 07:15 PM)

One little note on the car vs driver issue. At our final PCA event last fall a gentleman with more than a little experience from another region showed up with a very nice YELLOW GT3. He finished behind a fuel injected '73 2.0 914 with Hoosiers and Konis.

Also, this is 914 vs 914...

weight makes a big difference.
and don't -4 cars usually beat heavy -6 cars in autox?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the points are to class your car only. Not for any handicapping, correct? Once I've got enough points to be in super mod, it doesn't really matter where in the class I am. I could have 900 points but it won't matter when it comes to scoring.

(forgive me if this has been asked before, but this fricking thing is 10 pages long! )

Thanks, Paul

You are somewhat correct sir.

Points are mostly for classing. However, there are some things that have been thrown into the mix that are also being used to create some type of handicapping (field size).

I agree. Class is class. Once you hit the minimum requirement of points for Super Modified, it doesn't matter how many you have.

OK, let's see if this works.

I threw together a quick spreadsheet with what I think are the current rules for determining classification of cars. It should be pretty simple to use. I also built it so that it is very simple to update as the rules may change as it determines values from lookup tables.

It works with the different versions of Excel that I have access to. However, since it uses VBA for some of the functionality, it won't work with OpenOffice.

If I got any of the rules or calculations wrong, please let me know.

Point Calculator Spreadsheet

QUOTE (URY914 @ Jan 26 2005, 07:29 AM)

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the points are to class your car only. Not for any handicapping, correct? Once I've got enough points to be in super mod, it doesn't really matter where in the class I am. I could have 900 points but it won't matter when it comes to scoring. (forgive me if this has been asked before, but this fricking thing is 10 pages long! ) Thanks, Paul

hey paul

SMod is SMod, you're right. whether you have 405 or 905 points, you are competing in SMod.

However, we want accurate reportings of points because we're also looking at doing a PAX-index in addition to the main classed-competition -- where each competitor's class-points are used to generate a handicap coefficient to multiply points by. so in that case, it DOES matter whether you have 405 vs 905 points -- even thought both put you in SMod.

other paul: spreadsheet won't unzip for me -- don't know if others are haven't that problem...

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 26 2005, 11:03 AM)

spreadsheet won't unzip for me -- don't know if others are haven't that problem...

the BBS software has a bug that adds a linebreak (0x0d 0x0a) to the beginning of attachments.

open the file in a hex-editor and remove the first 2 bytes and it'll work just fine ...
Andy

Or get it directly from here:

Point Calculator Spreadsheet

Paul, did you copyright this? I'm not going to open it unless you did.

Paul

I can't open either, either.

BTW, can we get this moved to the "sticky" area?
It would be easier to follow Trekkor's "pre whining".

paul heeery: beautiful spread sheet man.

nate dog: do bilsteins with the STOCK adjustable perch count as aftermarket adjustable perches? not a biggie for me - im in improved either way....