914cup 2005

a virtual autocross series....

914ers are encouraged to participate in their respective autocross series, and report those times back here for a virtual, nationwide 914 autocross competition!


How it works:

Class your car. Enter an autocross in your area. Compete. Report back the event's TTOD, your fastest time of the day, your class, and some other minor bits of information. Points for your submitted times will be generated and entered into an ongoing series for 2005. At the end of the 2005 season, the best of each competitor's SIX (6) events will be tallied.

How do I sign up?

go here: http://www.stanford.edu/~neb/914cupmain.htm


Rules:

-Open to 914's only.

-4cyl, 6cyl, SBC conversions, rotary conversions, EV's, tube frame cars, and other customs are welcome to compete. Simply, the car MUST have started its life out as a 914, and retain some spirit of a 914.

-Cars will be divided by points into four (4) classes. Competitors are responsible for classing their cars themselves, and for policing each other if necessary.

-see below for classing information

-Eligible AX's

-Only submissions from an official, timed AX event run by a sanctioning body such as PCA or SCCA is eligible.
-In order to preserve competition, only AX events with a minimum of 5 total competitors will be eligible.
-if 5-10 total competitors, event points will be handicapped by .8
-if 11-15 total competitors, event points will be handicapped by .9
-if 16-20 total competitors, event points will be handicapped by .95
-if 21+ competitors, event points will not be handicapped.

-Competitors may enter and submit times from any number of AX events they wish.
-AX "training schools" are not eligible.
-If a competitor competes in multiple sanctioning bodies (e.g. PCA and SCCA), s/he must account for two seperate entries in 914cup; one for each sanctioning body. In this case, the competitor may submit his/her best series results for end-of-the-year 914cup standings.
-Only events held in 2005 will be eligible.

Eligible Submissions:

-Definition: TTOD here refers to the fastest officially-recognized run by any production-based car. This specifically excludes open-wheeled cars such as SCCA's A-mod or F-SAE classes, as well as (very rarely) some PCA Exhibition-classed cars on a case-by-case basis.

-Each competitor must submit their personal fastest official run of the day, as well as the official TTOD for the event. A score will be generated based on a ratio of the TTOD to the competitor's best time multiplied by 100.

e.g. if the TTOD is 37.286, and the competitor's best time is 41.615, then the competitor will earn 90 points for that event.
(37.286/41.615 = .895975009 * 100 = 89.59 rounded to nearest integer
= 90)

-This score will then be modified if necessary based upon total number of
entries (see above, "Eligible AX's")

-TTOD will always be 100 points, except AX events with less than 21
competitors, where TTOD will be either 95, 90, or 80 points (see above,
"Eligible AX's")

-All submissions shall be Raw Times -- not indexed (i.e. do not submit your PAX results)
-Fun runs are not accepted for a competitors best time
-All submitted times must be officially recognized by the organization that you run with.
-i.e., if a competitor disputes a time with his/her sanctioning body, s/he must nonetheless report the officially recognized time. If such a dispute is resolved in the competitor's favor, s/he may have his/ her score adjusted accordingly.


Score Keeping

-Scores will be tallied continuously throughout the autocross season.
-Scores will be reported in integer form. Only in the event of a season-tie will scores be calculated to the
n-th decimal necessary to determine a winner.


CLASSES:


Competitors must class themselves by adding the following points in tally according to their 914. Competitors may switch classes mid-season, but end of the year standings will be tallied for the highest class that competitor raced in.

Backdating (e.g. exhaust, bumpers, doors) is free.

Stock = 0-99 points
Improved = 100-249 points
Modified = 250-349 points
Super-Modified = 350+ points


Tires

Width:
205-width and under = + 0
tirewidth (for 305 and less): (2xx – 205) = penalty points
greater than 305 width = 100 penalty points.

i.e. :
205 or less = +0
215 = +10
225 = +20
235 = +30
etc....
305 or greater = +100

Competitors running slicks in non-standard tire size must convert sizes and add points accordingly.
http://www.csgnetwork.com/tireinfo4calc.html

Type:
DOT Street Tires with treadwear rating over 100* = +0
*exception: Falken Azenis = +50
DOT r-compound tires = +100
non DOT tires (slicks) = +150*
*Competitors running slicks must run in S-Mod,
at a minimum of 350 total points. If the competitor's
total class-points do not add up to at least 350 points,
they must nonetheless report 350 total points for all
purposes of classing.

Brakes

free all classes

Suspension

non-stock rear springs/torsion bars +30
fine-adjustable coil spring platforms +10
(e.g. threaded collars or sim.)
non-stock sway bar +30


Interior

Interior has been substantially gutted and lightened = +20
Race Seat = +10

Body/Frame

car has been lightened by replacing body panels or bumpers with non-stock parts (fiberglass, carbon fiber, etc.) = +10 per body panel

car has been stiffened by reinforcing suspension points (extra bracing, cage tied into suspension points, etc.) = +20

inner or outer long reinforcement: +5

for cars that have been lightened/stiffened beyond the above: please add points as you deem appropriate.


Transmission

non-stock gearing = +15
LSD = +40

Engine/Flywheel/Exhaust/Induction/etc.

Displacement (4cyl)

1.7 - 1.8 = +0
1.9 = +15
2.0 = +30
2.01-2.2 = +45
2.21-2.4 = +60
>2.4 = +75

Displacement (6 cyl)

2.0 = +45
2.01-2.3 = +60
2.31-2.6 = +75
2.7-2.9 = +90
3.0 = +100
3.2 = +125
3.6+ = +150


Induction (ALL CARS with internal combustion engines):*

Stock FI = +0
Stock or non-improved Carbs = +0

Non-stock FI = +15
Non-stock or improved Carbs* = +15
(this includes all dual carbs on T4's)

*for conversions such as SBC/rotary: if the induction
is an improvement over a common version of your
motor (such as a big carb on a V8), add points as
as directed.


Cams (ALL CARS with internal combustion engines):*

stock = +0
non-stock = +20

*for conversions such as SBC/rotary: if the camshaft
is an improvement over a common version of your
motor, add points as directed.

Ignition:

free all classes

Other:

V8 conversion = +70*
*Add additional points for induction and cam
(etc.) if necessary. Exhaust, including
headers, is free.
Rotary/Suby conversion = +75*
*Add additional points for induction, cam and
turbo (etc.) if necessary. Exhaust, including
headers, is free.
Electric conversion = add "Engine" points as you deem appropriate
Other conversion = add points as you deem appropriate


Flywheel (All Cars):

stock = +0
lightened = +5

Forced Induction (All Cars):

car is turbo- or super- charged: +40

Exhaust (All 4cyl and 6cyl):

mufflers: free all classes
headers: +15

Im in.

I think that an LSD is/was a stock option, so i dont think that it should be penialized.

Rich

im in! but we'll see what my initial number is when the car is running.

Sounds good to me, just need a working car.

Well you know I'm in.
Classing my car is going to be interesting.
BTW Nathan you are doing an excellent job putting this together. I was thinking something simpler but your stuff all makes sense to keep it fair.
Only 6 events???? I plan on at least 15 But some think I am nuts for cars.

awesome idea!
cant wait to see where peoples' cars are starting at with penalty points and who comes out on top.

Ok, I'm in. Goal is not to be last.

Well I'm in.

Im in with an exception -

the PCA AX i attend usually has 10-15 cars. great fun... most are beginners. why should that have any affect on my eligibility to play in the 914 cup?
if this happens..you basically nailed 10+ of the 914 club members within 20 miles of me. NOT COOL. 10 active people out of the "cup".



also ....

QUOTE

Non-stock Carbs = +15

do i add this to a webr equipped car? AFAIK the only carbed 4 banger was the euro 1.8...
either way im still in improved

I'm in, of course.

265 points Modified...

Great job. this will be fun. Another reason to log on.

KT

10-15 in your class or 10-15 total at the event? I think Nathan means total at the event, which gives the TTOD some meaning.

If you really only have 10-15 people showing up TOTAL at your events, that's quite remarkable. Do they not AX in SoCal?

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 21 2005, 09:58 PM)

10-15 in your class or 10-15 total at the event? I think Nathan means total at the event, which gives the TTOD some meaning. If you really only have 10-15 people showing up TOTAL at your events, that's quite remarkable. Do they not AX in SoCal?

riverside region PCA.... usueally less than 15 cars, i made a post...got more 914's to show up than 911's.....

thas really lame if i cant be included in this

i'm in ...

Andy

btw. once this is settle down, we should print out some flyers that each of us can bring to their first AX's of the season to hand out to outher 914 guys that are not on the board.

yes, yes, i know, hard to believe, but we have quite a few guys around here that are not part of the club ...
Andy

This needs to be nailed, don't you think?
All the clubbers need a chance to get in on this one.

A/X is really fun and this adds a great spin on it.

KT

I'm in ..with stock 1.8 and Falkens I should do ok based on those points. Looks like 35 for me.

I'm tempted, might just be in.
I wonder if this would get me out to more than one AX a year?
I know there are only few of us EVs , but if we do well we'll need to look into more of a point penalty for Electrics.
My 914 may weigh 3000 lbs, but it puts out over 200 HP over a pretty wide powerband with no shifting. That could be a threat if I ever put some real tires on it or adjusted the alignment. ..... Oh yeah, I'd need to learn to drive better too!
Anyway, a zero hit would not be fair to others for a machine that does 0-60 in 5 seconds. Maybe like a point for every KW measured over 60 for the EVs. That would put my motor at about 100 points for a total of 190 points.

I'm in, some one has to bring up the rear.... Geez only 40 points, no wonder I'm so f'in slow....

Sounds good. I'm in.

I'm in @480

I'll do it twice. One each for PCA & SCCA. It may give some sort of handle on the "level of competition" thing.....neither of which will count for the Worldwide914AXheroaward.....if that is suitable to all.

OK, I'm in @ what, about 1000 points?

Screw it, I'll run.

I am in.

I've totaled everything up and I've got 30 points. So, I guess I'm not in JP's class.

JP brings up an interesting point. Can you "enter" more than once? By that I mean submit your results separately when you compete with different organizations?

I am in!

One comment regarding the TTOD comparison. I believe it should be limited to "real" cars for comparison purposes. Occasionally we get NC State and Duke students showing up with their Formula SAE car (basically SCCA AMod) and they absolutely blast the fastest "real" cars into the weeds by 4 seconds or more depending on the course.

I propose the the TTOD we use shall be based on the fastest "real" car. (open wheeled formula cars disallowed).

I'm in either way, this is a great way to bring the club together!

I'm in @ 360+ depending on tires.
T.C.

390, Modified ...

Andy

great commentary and suggestions, folks

please keep it coming, i won't take it personally.


Re. LSD: what do you guys think? i realize that some stock cars were equipped with this, but it still gives a fairly substantial advantage at AX, and most "built" AX cars are equipped with it. I propose we keep it penalized, but i'd like to hear other's opinions.

Re. the number of events: okay, yeah -- 6 is a little low. but i think that no more than eight should be counted so as to include as many competitors as possible. if you do 30 AX's in 05, then you'll have more chances to do better -- we'll still only pull your best 8 (or 6, or 7). PLEASE, let me know how many events we should count.

Re. carbs: yes, a weber equiped car adds 15 points. gotta count the cam, too. As far as "stock carbs", i was thinking of stock /6's.

Re. min. # of total entries for an event to count: Aaron, I (we) definitely want to include you and others. I included this rule to try and give TTOD some real meaning -- clearly you're at an advantage in the cup if you only run against 10 other cars. BUT, I'd rather you run than this thing be ultra-fair... (which it can't really be anyway). two solutions:

-we lower the minimum number of total entries to 10, or 8
or so. no penalty.
-if there are less than 15 total entries in an event, you are
allowed to submit your time with a handicap coefficent.
e.g. we multiply your points by .9

Whatever the case is -- it's much more important that you are included than that the thing is "fair". PLEASE -- add your opinion to this issue.

Re. EV's : Otmar, you could probably class yourself more fairly than anyone else -- and i'd encourage you to do so. However, in thinking about your specific case, i thought that the weight that your car more than offset the power -- at least until you got some real meaty tires on that beast.

Re. a dual entry (e.g. one for PCA/one for SCCA): that's fine with me, but you should only be able to count one of those series (your best) towards end of the year points.

Re. TTOD set by open-wheeled formula cars: yeah -- this is unfair. sumbit the TTOD only for production cars.


PLEASE DEBATE THE ABOVE

thanks, n

Nice!
Hows about four classes though???

Stock, 0-74
improved 75-199
modified 200-349
super modified 350+

I dono.. just a thought

Like the idea though..

Andrew

Re. LSD: Keep the extra points for LSD

Re. the number of events: For the highest number of people to be able to participate, I think that it should be kept low. Here in New England, we have a short season usually six to seven months. Most organizations around here only run once a month.

Re. carbs: Yes. Points for carbs on 4-cylinder cars. I'm not sure about non-stock carbs on stock 6-cylinder cars.

Re. min. # of total entries for an event to count: Lower the number of entries to ten. Then, if less than ten cars run, hit 'em with an handicap.

Re. EV's : I think we should reserve the right to retroactively deduct points from Otmar if we find that he is consistently kicking out butts.

Re. a dual entry (e.g. one for PCA/one for SCCA): If we allow dual entries, the points should never be mixed. If you declare upfront that you will be running one PCA and one SCCA, you can't at a later time take the highest six (or whatever number) from both groups. However, if you don't declare that you are running with two or more separate groups, your highest six (or whatever number) will be your points.

Re. TTOD set by open-wheeled formula cars: Production cars only.

QUOTE (Paul Heery @ Jan 22 2005, 01:03 PM)

Re. EV's :  I think we should reserve the right to retroactively deduct points from Otmar if we find that he is consistently kicking out butts.

That sounds fair to me. (except I think you might want to add, not deduct)
It will be interesting to see where in the pack I end up.

thanks, paul. we're on the same page.

If everyone could please do as Paul has done above, it would helpful. Please raise any other issues, as well. Thanks, n

I would expect this year to be a trial run and that the rules will be in a constant state of flux. I would expect these rule changes to alter peoples rankings. I propose that there be no prizes this year since this is a "dry run".

QUOTE (Paul Heery @ Jan 22 2005, 01:03 PM)

Re. carbs: Yes. Points for carbs on 4-cylinder cars. I'm not sure about non-stock carbs on stock 6-cylinder cars.

thats a tuff one. the only NON STOCK carb is the PMO for 911 motors. who can say if your motor originally had webers,zeniths,solexes

QUOTE

e. min. # of total entries for an event to count: Lower the number of entries to ten. Then, if less than ten cars run, hit 'em with an handicap.

im down with that. a 90 percent yeild as a handicap should be okay.

QUOTE

Re. LSD:

keep it penalized.

QUOTE

Re. the number of events:

let's start with 6 and see how that goes. if 95% of the guys run more than 6, we can still bump it up later in the year.

QUOTE

Re. carbs:

carbs on 4 bangers are non-stock in the US, so penalize it.

QUOTE

Re. min. # of total entries for an event to count:

make the minimum 15. if between 10 and 15 make modifier 0.9, if less than 10, make modifier 0.8

QUOTE

Re. EV's :

i think we should wait and see how he's doing before we penalize (or reward) him. the batteries add over 1000 lbs to his car, plus his suspension is set up for drag-racing (0 camber on skinny tires). last time i saw him at a AX, he didn't do all that well.

QUOTE

Re. a dual entry (e.g. one for PCA/one for SCCA):

if one keeps the two separated, i don't any reason why not. just treat it as two separate cars ...

QUOTE

Re. TTOD set by open-wheeled formula cars:

yeah, those can be a problem. we should exclude them and only count TTOD for cars that have at least some resemblance to a production car.

Andy

QUOTE (Otmar @ Jan 21 2005, 10:50 PM)

I'm tempted, might just be in. I wonder if this would get me out to more than one AX a year? I know there are only few of us EVs , but if we do well we'll need to look into more of a point penalty for Electrics. My 914 may weigh 3000 lbs, but it puts out over 200 HP over a pretty wide powerband with no shifting. That could be a threat if I ever put some real tires on it or adjusted the alignment. ..... Oh yeah, I'd need to learn to drive better too! Anyway, a zero hit would not be fair to others for a machine that does 0-60 in 5 seconds. Maybe like a point for every KW measured over 60 for the EVs. That would put my motor at about 100 points for a total of 190 points.

Thats what I thought when you drove at WCC AX last year. If you get some tires under that thing you would be very fast regardless of the 3000lbs. So I think you should only penalized if you run r compound or tires bigger than 205.

Not many of us can burn rubber in 3rd gear!

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Jan 22 2005, 11:44 AM)

Hows about four classes though??? Stock, 0-74 improved 75-199 modified 200-349 super modified 350+

i suppose i'm open to this. let's see how many competitors we have, though -- we need to make sure that we have enough in each class to really make for some competition. i say we keep it to three for now. maybe four in the future.

otmar, class your self dude. honestly, i think that none of us have much of an idea. but we do know that your car would be a true MENACE with some wide wheels, slicks, and stiffening!


re. aaron's situation of low AX turnout, i like what andy et al suggested. i'd modify it slightly:

Minimum Total entries MUST be 5.

5-10 total entries, handicap by .8

11-15 total entries, handicap by .9

16-20 total entries, handicap by .95

21+ total entries, no handicap.


i think this is fair. aaron -- is this agreeable to you?


TTOD for production-based cars only. This rule should pretty much ONLY come up in SCCA for classes like Amod. a tube-frame 911 rocket at the PCA is still production-based, sorry. PCA exhibition classes (factory race cars or sim.) may also be an issue, however, and should be decided on a case-by-case basis.

QUOTE (McMark @ Jan 22 2005, 12:21 PM)

I propose that there be no prizes this year since this is a "dry run".

yeah -- probably best if bragging right only this first run. however, if everyone wanted to pay a fee to play, end of the year prizes would be feasible (someone else would have to organize that part of it).


the other thing i can think of: switching classes mid-season

alot of our cars are in a constant states of improvement -- and, as such, i say that we allow mid-season class changes. HOWEVER, scores will be tallied for the highest (i.e. most competitive) class that you raced in that season. e.g.

because a competitor is a freak who upgrades his car even more often than trekkor*, this competitor runs:

2 races in stock: 84 & 86 points
3 races in improved: 89, 91 & 94 points
2 races in modified: 93 & 98 points.

this competitors total score for the season would be 551 (best 6 of 7 scores added together), and this would count only towards end of the year standings in the modified class.

also re. LSD
i say we reduce the points to +40



*p.s. trekkor, sorry about my points system putting you in modified! but, at least i can say i didn't construct the system around my car -- at 270 points, i'll be running with you!

Front page Rules/Classes have been updated.


one more thing:

Re. Tires:

as ubiquitous and sticky as Falken Azenis are, should we specifically target them for an additional 40 or 50 points? this has, over the past couple years, been a "loophole", so to speak, in stock classes. It is commonly accepted that despite their "claimed" treadwear rating, they are in fact stickier than a 100TW tire -- though they are not as sticky as a victoracer, and far from a hoosier.

I'm more than happy keeping them unpenalized, just looking to put it to the group. Please speak up.

Our PCA AXs are runwhatchabrung, but seldom has anything too radical.
SCCA has everything.....open wheel, D sports racers, ....ah...stuff without doors, so the doorslammers only rule is gud.

I'll go with PCA AXs for counting points......just to keep things even , but keep track of the SCCA events.

I'm in. Put me in the Modified class.

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 22 2005, 04:12 PM)

as ubiquitous and sticky as Falken Azenis are, should we specifically target them for an additional 40 or 50 points?

yes ...

compared to good street tires, you can gain anywhere from 2 to 4 seconds by switching to falkens.

i think we need to take care of those ...
Andy

thanks, andy. i've updated the rules to reflect this -- please speak up if you disagree with this rule!

i'll leave debate open on these rules until next week, afterwhich things will be nailed down more or less, and I'll begin taking competitor's information.

meanwhile...

i'd like to have two other volunteers to form a '914cup committee' of 3 total. the purpose of this committee would be to have a panel to decide on rule/class changes mid-season, or to otherwise interpret and make decisions fairly. there's no need for this thing to become too 'formalized' and stiff, but neither should it be run seat-of-the-pants-style, or "what-I-say-goes".

preferably, one would be an admin who is also willing to set up a '914cup' reference page listing the rules and classes. someone with SCCA experience might be helpful, as well. i'm still happy to run the spreadsheet and essentially admin this thing, continually updating a (nailed?) thread with current standings of all competitors.

let me know if your interested in this, and keep the input on rules/classes coming!

n

I'm a freak...Look away I'm hideous

I *think* my mods are done for now...

KT

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Jan 22 2005, 12:57 PM)

QUOTE Re. LSD: keep it penalized. QUOTE Re. the number of events: let's start with 6 and see how that goes. if 95% of the guys run more than 6, we can still bump it up later in the year. QUOTE Re. carbs: carbs on 4 bangers are non-stock in the US, so penalize it. QUOTE Re. min. # of total entries for an event to count: make the minimum 15. if between 10 and 15 make modifier 0.9, if less than 10, make modifier 0.8 QUOTE Re. EV's : i think we should wait and see how he's doing before we penalize (or reward) him. the batteries add over 1000 lbs to his car, plus his suspension is set up for drag-racing (0 camber on skinny tires). last time i saw him at a AX, he didn't do all that well. QUOTE Re. a dual entry (e.g. one for PCA/one for SCCA): if one keeps the two separated, i don't any reason why not. just treat it as two separate cars ... QUOTE Re. TTOD set by open-wheeled formula cars: yeah, those can be a problem. we should exclude them and only count TTOD for cars that have at least some resemblance to a production car. Andy

Andy, you're so deep....

Hmmm....

I get whacked with 50 points for my Falkens....

I can deal with that. I'm now at a total of 80 points, still in Stock Class.

QUOTE (Paul Heery @ Jan 22 2005, 07:49 PM)

Hmmm.... I get whacked with 50 points for my Falkens.... I can deal with that. I'm now at a total of 80 points, still in Stock Class.

good. my goal re. the falken azeni rule was that they would only knock you into improved if you had stiffer suspension AND a non-stock sway bar. (or a bigger engine, etc.)....

with falkens, a 2.0, and a stock suspension w/ stock sway, one could be pretty damn competitive in stock. or falkens, a 1.7, and some other upgrades....

HOWEVER, if you have falkens, stiff springs, and a big sway, you belong in improved, IMHO.

QUOTE (trekkor @ Jan 22 2005, 06:03 PM)

I *think* my mods are done for now...

lmfao.... somehow i don't believe you! if this new engine is a fast as randal and you say, then i give you until summer before you start seriously considering putting some more tire on the ground...

and then it's flares, 5-lug, wheels and slicks.....

you've got a sickness, dude -- and the only way out is through.

So would I be stock or Improved running adjustable Koin's, stock front & rear bar, falkens, in a 70 with a 74 2.0L with euro P&C's? I would say improved since euro P&C's. I guess that brings my points to +95.

i only see 80 points based on that info. tires=50 engine=30 what else is there?


if, say, you have a header, then you would be running at (essentially defining) the outer limits of stock. that's fine -- no need to penalize yourself unecessarily.

in any case, my intuition is to NOT penalize based on compression...