Steve - You may be correct; and, you may not be - time will tell. Part of the problem is identifying true value. Asking prices for the early cars is sometimes ridiculous (ie: $350k+)! Then you see the same model/year at $125...still for sale. The market is still in a crazy frenzy and too volatile to even establish what the true value is. Like someone else pointed out, sellers can ask (price) whatever they want - that affects the perception of the market but does not set it. Basically, it will be difficult to determine if you're ultimately correct or not - it will take years to determine (most likely). I don't want a 911 - been there and done that - I don't care about their market/values. This conversation started with the misalignment in values (disproportionate) between 911's and 914's. I still believe, with rare exception, that the gap between the two will remain.
Steve: You've got great balance! LOL
Click to view attachment
Full Version: Managing the value of the 914
One other thought hit me. Porsche E-MISSION! This car takes Porsche in a totally new Direction that in years to come could make the 911s the 914s of the future, and what then do the Air Cooled Porsches, 914s included, become?
(Side note the first Porsche P1 was an all electric car)
(Side note the first Porsche P1 was an all electric car)
QUOTE(Cracker @ Dec 22 2015, 09:43 AM) 
Steve - You may be correct; and, you may not be - time will tell. Part of the problem is identifying true value. Asking prices for the early cars is sometimes ridiculous (ie: $350k+)! Then you see the same model/year at $125...still for sale. The market is still in a crazy frenzy and too volatile to even establish what the true value is. Like someone else pointed out, sellers can ask (price) whatever they want - that affects the perception of the market but does not set it. Basically, it will be difficult to determine if you're ultimately correct or not - it will take years to determine (most likely). I don't want a 911 - been there and done that - I don't care about their market/values. This conversation started with the misalignment in values (disproportionate) between 911's and 914's. I still believe, with rare exception, that the gap between the two will remain.
Steve: You've got great balance! LOL
Click to view attachment
Very good points. Time will tell. There are pros and cons either way.
QUOTE
Asking prices for the early cars is sometimes ridiculous (ie: $350k+)!
911 #13 (back then 901) has been sold to a guy I know for 1 million dollar. He imported it into The Netherlands a few months ago.
Menno
So I've been into 914's since I was 18...thirty years ago. I'm lucky to own an original, preservation winner, 1973 914 2.0. I bought it 22 years ago. Not because I thought it was a collectible, but because it was fun to drive.
7 years ago I bought a 1990 911 C2 in great condition. All records, original, etc. Once again, didn't buy it as an investment, just was fun to drive. I bought it a few years before the bubble. 993's were still high and 3.2 were overpriced. 964's just wallowed in the cellar.
Both of these cars were cheap fun. Now they are worth a lot more than I paid for them. BUT to me, they are still cheap fun. Oh sure, I've upped my insured value for each of them, but, I still drive them.
I doubt the 914 or C2 will ever be considered collectibles when it comes to the big boy collectors. The 914-6 and 964RS (the real RS, not the RS America) will be always sought after. I'm fine with that. I"m not a big boy collector. I just have fun driving it. If my checkbook allowed me to buy a real RS, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
It just sucks that 914 and C2 parts are going up in value as the cars do. I remember buying perfect bumpers for $50.
7 years ago I bought a 1990 911 C2 in great condition. All records, original, etc. Once again, didn't buy it as an investment, just was fun to drive. I bought it a few years before the bubble. 993's were still high and 3.2 were overpriced. 964's just wallowed in the cellar.
Both of these cars were cheap fun. Now they are worth a lot more than I paid for them. BUT to me, they are still cheap fun. Oh sure, I've upped my insured value for each of them, but, I still drive them.
I doubt the 914 or C2 will ever be considered collectibles when it comes to the big boy collectors. The 914-6 and 964RS (the real RS, not the RS America) will be always sought after. I'm fine with that. I"m not a big boy collector. I just have fun driving it. If my checkbook allowed me to buy a real RS, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
It just sucks that 914 and C2 parts are going up in value as the cars do. I remember buying perfect bumpers for $50.
Buy 1978-1983 911SC's now...these are slowly creeping up. Nice torque 3L
light fun car. I'm not a car flipper, but appreciable cars are worth more than bank interest. A smart Porsche purchase is a good place to keep an investment.
light fun car. I'm not a car flipper, but appreciable cars are worth more than bank interest. A smart Porsche purchase is a good place to keep an investment.
Not sure if this was thought of, or mentioned, but, as the 914 cost increases, especially a rapid cost increase, the number of potential 914 buyers decreases due to affordability. The difference in the cost of todays 914 when compared to a used 911, or other vintage Porsche is huge making the existing 911 buyer one of the 914s biggest potential buyer.
However, the biggest competitor to the sale of a 914 is most likely MGB, Triumph or similar era sports car which although they too are increasing in value, they appear to be less costly while the current cost of the 914 seems to entering in to the too expensive range for the typical guy when compared to many British, Italian and Japanese cars on the market. This could reduce the number of potential buyers for the 914 and stabilize it's cost, or even drive down the cost.
However, the biggest competitor to the sale of a 914 is most likely MGB, Triumph or similar era sports car which although they too are increasing in value, they appear to be less costly while the current cost of the 914 seems to entering in to the too expensive range for the typical guy when compared to many British, Italian and Japanese cars on the market. This could reduce the number of potential buyers for the 914 and stabilize it's cost, or even drive down the cost.
QUOTE(thieuster @ Dec 22 2015, 12:01 PM)
QUOTE
Asking prices for the early cars is sometimes ridiculous (ie: $350k+)!
911 #13 (back then 901) has been sold to a guy I know for 1 million dollar. He imported it into The Netherlands a few months ago.
Menno
This car apparently didn't sell....the owner was offered more then $1M and he turned it down....
When all cars are electric someday, I wonder what our cars will be worth then..
QUOTE(Cal @ Dec 22 2015, 01:29 PM)
QUOTE(thieuster @ Dec 22 2015, 12:01 PM)
QUOTE
Asking prices for the early cars is sometimes ridiculous (ie: $350k+)!
911 #13 (back then 901) has been sold to a guy I know for 1 million dollar. He imported it into The Netherlands a few months ago.
Menno
This car apparently didn't sell....the owner was offered more then $1M and he turned it down....
So, was 13 a lucky number in this case?
I don't think 914s will ever be worth what long hood 911s are or will be. Nor, logically, should they—unless we are talking about 914-6s, 914-6 GTs, 914-6 M471s, or 916s. But I do suspect prices for the best regular 914s will track with good and great 912s, early 911Ts, and very good early 911 hot rods—plus or minus some percentage depending on whether it's a top 914-4, a real 914-6, and very good six conversions.
I think Charles Danek nailed it—there is a lot of utility/fun factor in 914s, and there are not a lot of other Porsches that offer a similar set of sensations and sentiments. And yet I've got very mixed feelings about the prices of 911s, 912s, and 914s over the last few years especially. It's a mixed blessing, I suppose, but I worry that the cars will disappear from the roads—whether they're investments or gathered into barns.
There will, however, be no "managing" of the market. It will do what it will do.
Future prediction with an almost guaranteed outcome. In probably less than 10 years self driving cars will be everywhere.
As soon as they are proven safe, in the name of SAFETY all cars that do not drive themselves will be deemed unsafe. All the people who don't enjoy driving much will think that is a great idea. They can spend more time on their smartphones or computers.
Cars that require drivers will sometime later be illegal to drive on public roads.
I enjoy restoring cars. I appreciate all the help the members of this site have given me in finding 40 plus year old parts. It's a journey. Of course, I would like to get my money back when I am done. I count my labor at .05 per hour. I love finding every part that brings my cars closer to perfect. I especially enjoy when someone admires my car. The car that I saved from the junkyard.
Enjoy the day, don't worry about the value.
As soon as they are proven safe, in the name of SAFETY all cars that do not drive themselves will be deemed unsafe. All the people who don't enjoy driving much will think that is a great idea. They can spend more time on their smartphones or computers.
Cars that require drivers will sometime later be illegal to drive on public roads.
I enjoy restoring cars. I appreciate all the help the members of this site have given me in finding 40 plus year old parts. It's a journey. Of course, I would like to get my money back when I am done. I count my labor at .05 per hour. I love finding every part that brings my cars closer to perfect. I especially enjoy when someone admires my car. The car that I saved from the junkyard.
Enjoy the day, don't worry about the value.
QUOTE(Sedonut @ Dec 22 2015, 10:52 PM)
Future prediction with an almost guaranteed outcome. In probably less than 10 years self driving cars will be everywhere.
As soon as they are proven safe, in the name of SAFETY all cars that do not drive themselves will be deemed unsafe. All the people who don't enjoy driving much will think that is a great idea. They can spend more time on their smartphones or computers.
Cars that require drivers will sometime later be illegal to drive on public roads.
I enjoy restoring cars. I appreciate all the help the members of this site have given me in finding 40 plus year old parts. It's a journey. Of course, I would like to get my money back when I am done. I count my labor at .05 per hour. I love finding every part that brings my cars closer to perfect. I especially enjoy when someone admires my car. The car that I saved from the junkyard.
Enjoy the day, don't worry about the value.
This thought has been bouncing around my head quite a bit. Elon Musk has gone as far as saying he'll push to have manned cars outlawed. Granted it will take time, certainly not in 10-15 years, but I could see it happening within 25-30 years. And as a software engineer, that industry scares the hell out of me given the complex dynamic world of driving and lack of government standards/regulation for development and testing.
But I agree the market will do what it does with little or no influence from our small community. And with any collectable market, predictions are difficult, at least outside of the near term, because they are emotionally driven.
QUOTE(somd914 @ Dec 23 2015, 04:16 AM)
QUOTE(Sedonut @ Dec 22 2015, 10:52 PM)
Future prediction with an almost guaranteed outcome. In probably less than 10 years self driving cars will be everywhere.
As soon as they are proven safe, in the name of SAFETY all cars that do not drive themselves will be deemed unsafe. All the people who don't enjoy driving much will think that is a great idea. They can spend more time on their smartphones or computers.
Cars that require drivers will sometime later be illegal to drive on public roads.
I enjoy restoring cars. I appreciate all the help the members of this site have given me in finding 40 plus year old parts. It's a journey. Of course, I would like to get my money back when I am done. I count my labor at .05 per hour. I love finding every part that brings my cars closer to perfect. I especially enjoy when someone admires my car. The car that I saved from the junkyard.
Enjoy the day, don't worry about the value.
This thought has been bouncing around my head quite a bit. Elon Musk has gone as far as saying he'll push to have manned cars outlawed. Granted it will take time, certainly not in 10-15 years, but I could see it happening within 25-30 years. And as a software engineer, that industry scares the hell out of me given the complex dynamic world of driving and lack of government standards/regulation for development and testing.
But I agree the market will do what it does with little or no influence from our small community. And with any collectable market, predictions are difficult, at least outside of the near term, because they are emotionally driven.
I doubt seriously that that will ever happen. Looking at the Aircraft industry today for example, most commercial planes can fly and land unassisted but the private planes are left up to the Pilots to fly. I would say the future for the Automobiles at worst case would be as such, worst case might be Lane restrictions as on Interstate Highways.
Thinking in the big picture it has been suggested that if the technology gets to the point that Machines do everything, and gain artificial intelligence, the next step would be they would cancel out the human race as being obsolete.
QUOTE(struckn @ Dec 23 2015, 11:37 AM)
I doubt seriously that that will ever happen. Looking at the Aircraft industry today for example, most commercial planes can fly and land unassisted but the private planes are left up to the Pilots to fly. I would say the future for the Automobiles at worst case would be as such, worst case might be Lane restrictions as on Interstate Highways.
Thinking in the big picture it has been suggested that if the technology gets to the point that Machines do everything, and gain artificial intelligence, the next step would be they would cancel out the human race as being obsolete.
But it's entirely different dynamic than aviation. With the US alone experiencing over 30,000 fatalities per year and over 2,000,000 injuries per year from auto accidents, coupled with the zero risk philosophy that has swept the country, there is an incredible push to make roads safer via automation - for us locally out here in the sticks, red light cameras and possibly speed cameras are coming with a promise of safer roads via technology. Plus the automated car industry is advocating manned cars as the major risk to automated cars in respect to accidents.
And yes, I too had thoughts of Red Barchetta.
But we digress, in the meantime let's see where our market goes in the next few years.
QUOTE(Sedonut @ Dec 22 2015, 07:52 PM)
Future prediction with an almost guaranteed outcome. In probably less than 10 years self driving cars will be everywhere.
As soon as they are proven safe, in the name of SAFETY all cars that do not drive themselves will be deemed unsafe. All the people who don't enjoy driving much will think that is a great idea. They can spend more time on their smartphones or computers.
Cars that require drivers will sometime later be illegal to drive on public roads.
I enjoy restoring cars. I appreciate all the help the members of this site have given me in finding 40 plus year old parts. It's a journey. Of course, I would like to get my money back when I am done. I count my labor at .05 per hour. I love finding every part that brings my cars closer to perfect. I especially enjoy when someone admires my car. The car that I saved from the junkyard.
Enjoy the day, don't worry about the value.
Horse people talked about these same concerns ever since horses stopped being beasts of burden. Today the recreational use of horses has brought the population to it's highest number in the past fifty years. Considering the cost of ownership, shrinking countryside, escalating environmental restriction, and many other issues we still have a high and healthy horse population.
I agree, autonomous vehicles will hit us fast. I don't think we'll see people lose all desires of driving, especially the classics, in fact the opposite is likely.
Enjoy your ride, your living in the days of the old west!
Another factor will be those people that can not drive a stick shift.
Will people want a stick because they want to be involved with driving, or will they say it's too much trouble? Most cars built now do not even have an option for a stick shift.
The car market tends to peak on models those in their top earning years wanted as a kid. If you look at the market for cars from the 30's to early 50's, the prices have dropped. The people that wanted them as a kid are dying off.
I think we have a few more years of appreciation.
Will people want a stick because they want to be involved with driving, or will they say it's too much trouble? Most cars built now do not even have an option for a stick shift.
The car market tends to peak on models those in their top earning years wanted as a kid. If you look at the market for cars from the 30's to early 50's, the prices have dropped. The people that wanted them as a kid are dying off.
I think we have a few more years of appreciation.
Self driving (electric) cars will become commonplace in city centers to reduce congestion and the relatively little smog most places have nowadays.
This will slowly spread.. liberal places first like CA and some NE states. Eventually, older cars will be limited in use/locations.
Till then, lets burn some fossil fuels and run into each other
This will slowly spread.. liberal places first like CA and some NE states. Eventually, older cars will be limited in use/locations.
Till then, lets burn some fossil fuels and run into each other
QUOTE(rdauenhauer @ Dec 23 2015, 01:47 PM)
Thanks!
Ah the day's of music videos, makes me think about the things these old eyes have seen,
OH NO, PLEASE Don't TAKE MY STEERING WHEEL away!
back to the O.P.
I've been thinking about witting this thread for a while now.
If early 911s can run for $165,000-300,000 then the 914/6 should be in the same range. Creamsickles and Bumblebees should be up there too and excellent /4 should all be over the $100,000 mark.
more grist
2013 http://thesportscarguys.com/2013/06/25/10-...93-porsche-914/
2014 http://thesportscarguys.com/2014/04/10/pri...t-market-value/
2014 http://petrolicious.com/why-the-porsche-91...-is-collectable
2004 Jan. 2004 issue https://classicmotorsports.com/articles/porsche-914/
2012 - we are our own market 914World http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...w=&st=&
2012 Hagerty
914 https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationtools...porsche-914-1.7
914-6 https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationtools...rsche-914!6
2016 Ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/RESTORATION-PROGRE...ARTS-NO-RESERVE
Excellence https://www.excellence-mag.com/resources/bu...guide/856880138
2013 The Samba - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6669446
914,org value guide http://www.porsche914.org/untitled.html
2015 914-6 Bloomberg http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-30/t...est-in-now.html
2014 Greg Fullmer’s Glocker 914-6 GT – allegedly sold for about $225K ??? also discussions on World & Pelican http://flatsixes.com/cars/for-sale-cars/on...-914-6-gt-sale/
Classic Cars.com http://classiccars.com/listings/find/all-years/porsche/914
2016 http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-f...e/porsche/914-6
2012 – 914World http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...p;#entry1644833
Nov 2013 http://oppositelock.kinja.com/porsche-914-...ugly-1471226984
2015 914-6 $215K http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act...=2&t=256701
2014 http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act...=2&t=235822
QUOTE(PanelBilly @ Dec 19 2015, 06:45 PM)
I've been thinking about witting this thread for a while now.
If early 911s can run for $165,000-300,000 then the 914/6 should be in the same range. Creamsickles and Bumblebees should be up there too and excellent /4 should all be over the $100,000 mark.
more grist
2013 http://thesportscarguys.com/2013/06/25/10-...93-porsche-914/
2014 http://thesportscarguys.com/2014/04/10/pri...t-market-value/
2014 http://petrolicious.com/why-the-porsche-91...-is-collectable
2004 Jan. 2004 issue https://classicmotorsports.com/articles/porsche-914/
2012 - we are our own market 914World http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...w=&st=&
2012 Hagerty
914 https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationtools...porsche-914-1.7
914-6 https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationtools...rsche-914!6
2016 Ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/RESTORATION-PROGRE...ARTS-NO-RESERVE
Excellence https://www.excellence-mag.com/resources/bu...guide/856880138
2013 The Samba - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6669446
914,org value guide http://www.porsche914.org/untitled.html
2015 914-6 Bloomberg http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-30/t...est-in-now.html
2014 Greg Fullmer’s Glocker 914-6 GT – allegedly sold for about $225K ??? also discussions on World & Pelican http://flatsixes.com/cars/for-sale-cars/on...-914-6-gt-sale/
Classic Cars.com http://classiccars.com/listings/find/all-years/porsche/914
2016 http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-f...e/porsche/914-6
2012 – 914World http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...p;#entry1644833
Nov 2013 http://oppositelock.kinja.com/porsche-914-...ugly-1471226984
2015 914-6 $215K http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act...=2&t=256701
2014 http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act...=2&t=235822
QUOTE(struckn @ Dec 22 2015, 01:57 PM)
However, the biggest competitor to the sale of a 914 is most likely MGB, Triumph or similar era sports car which although they too are increasing in value, they appear to be less costly while the current cost of the 914 seems to entering in to the too expensive range for the typical guy when compared to many British, Italian and Japanese cars on the market. This could reduce the number of potential buyers for the 914 and stabilize it's cost, or even drive down the cost.
There were vastly more MGB's produced than 914's, given that the MGB production ran from '62-'80. The TR6, which like the 914 only ran from 70-76, might be a counterpart. However the problem with both of those examples is that they don't have the legacy that the Porsche brand does. There's not an equatable-value or equatable-demand car like the 356 or 911 in either the MG or Triumph roster. I don't see Triumphs or MG's pulling the kind of money that older Porsches do.
Plus I've owned a TR6. I can tell you that 914 owners are in general are WAAAAAY cooler than Triumph owners!
QUOTE(era vulgaris @ Jan 4 2016, 11:32 PM)
QUOTE(struckn @ Dec 22 2015, 01:57 PM)
However, the biggest competitor to the sale of a 914 is most likely MGB, Triumph or similar era sports car which although they too are increasing in value, they appear to be less costly while the current cost of the 914 seems to entering in to the too expensive range for the typical guy when compared to many British, Italian and Japanese cars on the market. This could reduce the number of potential buyers for the 914 and stabilize it's cost, or even drive down the cost.
There were vastly more MGB's produced than 914's, given that the MGB production ran from '62-'80. The TR6, which like the 914 only ran from 70-76, might be a counterpart. However the problem with both of those examples is that they don't have the legacy that the Porsche brand does. There's not an equatable-value or equatable-demand car like the 356 or 911 in either the MG or Triumph roster. I don't see Triumphs or MG's pulling the kind of money that older Porsches do.
Plus I've owned a TR6. I can tell you that 914 owners are in general are WAAAAAY cooler than Triumph owners!
So apparently you don't think smoking a pipe is cool?
QUOTE(wes @ Dec 23 2015, 06:29 PM)
QUOTE(rdauenhauer @ Dec 23 2015, 01:47 PM)
Thanks!
Ah the day's of music videos, makes me think about the things these old eyes have seen,
OH NO, PLEASE Don't TAKE MY STEERING WHEEL away!Besides, who wants to drive a gleaming alloy air car that's two lanes wide??
QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jan 4 2016, 10:51 PM)
So apparently you don't think smoking a pipe is cool?
Driving gloves, goggles, and leather RAF helmets are also pretty lame.
http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProduct...teIndexID=30640
The fact that their main parts supplier also sells this "apparel" tells says it all.
The one thing that Moss Motors doesn't sell is the metal rod that most of the Triumph owners I met had inserted up their ass. That must be something you have to supply on your own.
We could buy a bunch of old Crown Victorias and ghost drive them into self driving cars, (on purpose,) causing the designers of those untested abominations to run back to their collective drawing boards?
The 911 bubble will burst just a surely as the Mopar bubble burst and prices came crashing back down to earth.
When these bubbles occur it becomes economically viable to restore even marginal cars to a high standard. This eventually saturates the market and POP goes the bubble.
While 911's were not as common as Mustangs, there were still a lot of them produced.
I always have, and still do, prefer the 914.
When these bubbles occur it becomes economically viable to restore even marginal cars to a high standard. This eventually saturates the market and POP goes the bubble.
While 911's were not as common as Mustangs, there were still a lot of them produced.
I always have, and still do, prefer the 914.
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