oh no they aren't! my 06 X5 has had so many problems at 100k miles it's totally unacceptable! valve stem seals ($$$$), door handle carrier broke, axle went bad, brake booster went bad, HID headlight went bad, airbag suspension leak......and that's not even counting the water pump that I have to replace this weekend. it's a total POS.

I've owned three E36 M3s, E24 635, E46 m3, two E53 X5s, and they all had problem after problem.....

Only reason I drive a BMW is I do love the driving experience and they look good. But they are total money pits.

I agree with much of the OP's original post.

In my opinion there are two issues in play:
1. The pervasive (and ever increasing use of electronics)
2. Increasing use of plastic and/or cheap parts with little concern for reliability beyond the warranty

The first item is self explanatory. The more sensors, computers, switches, etc. the greater the chance for failure

The second item is tied to the pressure to deliver more and more functionality yet keep the costs down. It wasn't too long ago a "fully loaded" car meant PS, PB, PW, PDL, AC, CC and maybe a nice radio. Now, a "base car" has all that plus a bunch of safety features (air bags, ABS, traction control, etc), infotainment centers, remote start, and a host of other features that add cost and weight.

Something has to give....and that is the bullet proof reliability we used to see in BMW, MB, etc.

Does anyone think plastic radiators, water pump impellers, coolant pipes, manifolds, etc. are a good idea?

"Country of Origin"...... more and more component parts are coming from China.

Ford's Mustang Manual Transmissions on late model cars are crap built in China. Guys are blowing them up on stock engine and tires after only a few runs down the strip.. that never happened to the American made Borg-Warners and even Mexican Tremecs.

Every manufacturer is sourcing more and more parts from China including the "Germans", Mexicans, 'Mericans.......

I guarantee that if you don't stand over the Chinese supplier with a gun to their head.. they will absolutely change materials to the cheapest they can possibly find, and I'm mean ANY plastic resin, and ANY metal alloy.

It will be the weakest, most toxic (plastics), least durable which can be found.

How many of those "factory defects" can be sourced back to the crappy bracket, or bolt or fastener sourced in China to save a buck on final assembly in Germany?

No doubt the newest Porsches have some of the best engineering, and some of the shortest life components. The plastic they are using is garbage. It's kind of like "we are water cooling now, so let's build in a shorter service life".

We just sold our '06 Honda Odyssey to fund a '13 Nissan Altima purchase. The 193k mile Ody was a great car with only expected maintenance issues, and I really didn't want to sell, but the wife was tired of driving a van. It's hard to beat the reliability and service life of the Hondas, Mazdas, and Nissan products.

I'm lusting after a 964, but it will have to wait for a looong time. My B.I.L. just got a cherry mid 90's NSX and swears that's the way to go.

I've had many many cars in 35 years of driving-
I put almost 400k miles in a 2002 Chevy suburban and all I ever did was put tires, brakes, 3x, shiftable 2wd, 4wd, awesome truck - that wa bought because I got tired of minivans and transmission problems(2 Chrysler )
- currntly on 170k miles on our 2007 Lincoln Navigator - every one loves it- no major issues , tow package etc,
My college car was a 82 ford escort, later for a 92 escort that we put over 300k miles and only did suspension once, tires and brakes 3x , timing belts , water pump - got my money out of that!
- also 2 Jaguars and I have to saw both awesome cars, still have the 2004 VDP- great highway mileage-28-30 on highway, 23 combined around here, not one leak, still uses no oil - and the 4.2 v8 will throw you back in the seat if you are not careful- faster than my boxster -!!!
On the other hand low quality and not dependable cars have been Audi,
Vw etx
I'd buy a 2000- 2010 jaguar again. In a second !

and it takes 10+ book hours to service a relay or another electrical part that got buried during assembly.

those 92 escorts are certainly durable. the one my dad bought new that i gave to my cousin is still rolling. great little station wagon.

I can remember VW products of the 70's and 80's were far from reliable, at least the 74 Beetle we had and a few friends with Rabbits and Foxes. I wouldn't go saying German cars of yesterday were better, but given the advances in engineering / design tools, machining, and materials, I expect better. I also don't expect to have to drop an engine tray and bumper cover to replace a headlight bulb...

But anyway, I wouldn't blame country of origin. China can produce some high quality goods, and they can produce low quality, but the same is true of products built in the US, Germany, etc. Ultimately it comes down to the company. If Ford trannys are made in China and have a high failure rate, that is due to Ford, not China. Blame the auto manufacturers.

you can't go wrong with a japanese car or a japanese wife (the little one) : )

I can attest to the Cars at least Hondas. I have put at least a Million Miles on a batch of late 90s Civics. They don't break and get 35-40 MPG

Well, I can't speak to the wife claim, but my Lexus GX470 was 10+ years old and 160K miles with just oil changes and new 02 sensors. And it saved my life. I'd still have it if I didn't total it in my driveway. Yep, I might be the only guy to ever do that. Went into a 4 wheel slide on black ice rolling down my hill. Broke through a fence and rolled into a ravine. Landed on its side. Side bags deployed. My son and I walked away. Loved that car.

Planned obsolescence was decried as a bad thing. Now, it's just a fact of life. Very few of the current cars being manufactured will be economically viable to fix in 10 years.

Look at this thread on the troubles a simple coolant level sensor causes on the latest 911's (991's). Imagine the issues ten years down the road as these sensors and electronics age....

Weird Coolant Issue

I was talking about this thread's subject with a buddy who is a Lexus Certified Master Mechanic and he said the quality and reliability of Lexus has gone down in his 15 years working for them. He has customers with 90s-early 2000s come in just for oil changes with over 500k and no issues but newer ones have "crazy stupid" problems you would never think of. A 90s LS400 is one of the most solid, reliable cars ever built.

Wow - both of these posts above are right on point for me, since the T/L mid-size V8 SUV options which would even fit into our needs, are the 4Runner V8 (`03-09 only), GX470/460 or Land Cruiser & LX470/570 - & I don't seen many of the mid-2000's & earlier ones at <60K miles.

So the Lexus Tech is saying that the newer GX460 & LX570 are having stooopid problems now too, & presumably the 4Runner-V8 & Land Cruiser cousin are the same - then there may be no benefit over a `08-12 Cayenne S!?


However, there would still be the issues of Porsche parts 2x the T/L ones, & the Porsche propensity of making stuff 2x-3x as difficult to get to & diagnose, resulting in 2x-3x the labor costs - as my guy Hans says.

Good info guys!


Tom
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Of all the work I've done on an 08 335i in the last 10k not a single failure was actually a BMW fault. It was all outside suppliers... Bosch, VDO, Mitsubishi. But I find the car to be pretty easy to work on compared to the E36. Sometimes a few extra steps, like removing the bumper cover to replace ballasts, but straight forward and simple. Parts prices have been from reasonable to ridiculous.

The thing that peeves me the most is a $180 trans filter because it's built into the oil pan. Combining makes it cheaper to build a car but isn't in the owners best interest.

It's not BMWs fault buyers want all the sensors and warning lights so they don't have to know enough about their car to check fluids or open the hood. It is however their, and others, fault that the knowledge of how these new systems work and what triggers codes is so hard to get. Even the BMW dealer is wrong with diagnostics sometimes. It's just going to get worse as control systems get more resistance based and away from voltage changes.

A huge amount of new electronics are safety or emissions related, both mandated by our elected officials.

What surprises me though is the number of mechanical failures given all the technology and decades of experience in mechanical engineering.

Clutch packages with the pressure plate assem permanently fixed to the fw. So a clutch job means a new flywheel everytime. Endemic in the big scheme of things. Dishwashers with cheap plastic discharge valves for example. Metal hose ends that screw on to plastic threaded valves. The cheaply manufactured valve runs about $50. The service call? Prob $200+. Clothes dryer elements that fail right after the warrantee expires. Average homeowners will just replace the appliance.

1) 1962 Bug wife's family car since new. Great shape, thanks to me . Runs great but don't expect an experience more sophisticated than a mo-ped with a body. ( This car has not caught on fire lately).

2)1968 911. Slow. Complex. Worth more than it used to be. Price of admission exceeds the driving experience. Has not spun out lately (the last 30 yrs)

3) 1976 914. Fun

3)1984 Rabbit GTI. Worth every penny (pd $500). A keeper.

4)2010 TDI Jetta. 220k mi. Great car EXCEPT the high pressure fuel pump just failed catastrophically for the 2nd time. Really the car would be great but.........(waiting for VW to buy it back.

(etc: 1997 MB E 420 great car. 1996 Ford F250 7.3 reliable as a brick but 2x more funner to drive, 1984 MB 300D killed by a 16y old. 1999 Subaru outback, killed by a 17y old.)

Saw a 55 Chevy gasser yesterday, looks fun low profile with 2x 4 barrels and a 6-71 blower gonna get me one of those

Most problems I've had with newer cars are electronic/sensors.

Great posts on a sore subject.
In over 50 years of driving the worst cars I ever owned were a '10 Mercedes C350 coupe and an '08 530i BMW. They were my wife's drivers. Couldn't keep them out of the shop.
She now has a Subaru. Couldn't be happier. Never again will I own either brand.

Just came back and read all the comments.


The only thing I have to say is if I could find a VW Fox Wagon in reasonable condition, I would buy it, restore it and keep it forever..

Yes. VW Fox! Hard to kill. A friend had one a while back and he tried and tried.

I will say that my wife and I are quite pleased with our Subarus. I drive an '08 Forester (165k miles) and she has a '06 Tribeca (115K miles). Neither are "fun" to drive (unless there's 6+ inches of snow, hehe) but they have been reliable. Pretty much just standard wear items.

I've been thinking about what my next DD will be, and I've always wanted a BMW but the potential repair costs scare the bejesus out of me. In the end, when it is time to get something else, it will probably be another Subaru. I just need to make it a priority to add a 914 for some fun driving!

The VW Fox! hahah I loved mine! It was a '89 Wolfsburg edition 4 door.
I found out all about under steer at autocrosses with it. Though the Pirelli tyres
were excellent. Never needed a repair in the 5 years I owned it. Traded it in for the
'92 GTi I still have.

I bought a 2004 VW Touareg V8 fully loaded. It turned out to be a heaping pile of . I ended up selling it for $2,500 just to get rid of it. I will never but a VW or Audi that's for sure. In contrast I have a 2001 1500 suburban. It is 200 miles short of 300,000 and all I have done is changed the starter, water pump and alternator ONCE! It still has smooth power and you can not tell that it is on when idling. Incredible car! VW Touareg on the other hand.....major

Holy crap! The temp shoots immediately to 250 and pegs the gauge??? That can't be good for the internals @ less than 2k miles.

http://dougdemuro.kinja.com/german-reliabi...amer-1572026115

Joe, that is what I've done with my Civic Hatch! Big inside and gets 40mpg anywhere I go and I dive hard. I've had 3, one I bought new and sold too early, the next went over 400,000 Miles with the least amount of maintenance thinkable. I DD this one that I found last year with under 70,000, perfect inside. Cheap! I've done the regular stuff (Timing Belt, Water Pump, Motor & Tranny Mounts, Oil Changes), this can possibly go the rest of my life (don't drive 40k miles a year anymore). I'm going to & from the Glen in a couple of weeks and I won't bat an eye

Click to view attachment

My wife had one when I met her. Always needed something repaired. Got rid of it after a while.

Her current Honda has 230K with just gas, oil ant tires. Next car for her? Honda , big surprise

That was pretty good! I was a Test Driver for VW-Audi in the mid 90s. I blew up so many cars they called me the "Bug Killer" during the New Beetle prototype years The Audis when new were amazing, in 20,000 miles they were toast.

Me in AutoWeek (on the same page as Michael Schumacher)

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

My sister bought a 2005 Corolla new. While it is as boring as they come, with 150k Miles currently it has basically been brakes, tires, normal hose. items. Recently it needed a new power steering hose.

I am looking at a used tesla.....

http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-...gh-performance/

The best I have had was the 96 F150 with I6. That engine was bullet proof. Put over 200k miles on it. I used it like a truck and other than standard stuff (oil, tires, belts....) had no issues with it. Rust is what finally killed it.

Now my 1990 Dodge Dakota was a total POS from day one. Alt in the 1st week, front diff in the 1st year, transmission 2nd year, had a water leak in the cab, radio went out twice, passenger window kept falling out of the track. Got rid of it in 93 for a 93 V6 Ranger ext cab. Great truck, put 100k on it little over 5yrs. Sold it after I bought the 96 F150 and finally was give a company truck.

Not shocked here, there is a lot going on with that car.
All the CPO cars get extended warrantees, so I still might do it"
This is one cool car...

Meh, does nothing for me. The Rimac Concept One on the other hand... Of course it's 10x the price.

Our DD's :
very happy with our Seat Toledo (Seat is a brand of VW in Europe, not sure if they are in USA). actually it is a VW (all VW parts) and has a 1.2 TSI engine. I am happy with the car sofar, it has 30K miles and is like 3 years old now. We traded in our 2005 VW Golf Plus on it with 70K miles on the clock, great car, and if they were around new, my wife would want another one. however it ate coils (it has 4 coils, 1 per cilinder) and the headlights are designed very poorly (a broken small fitting needs you to replave the whole unit at 300$ each) and some electronic failures (they just reset it first on the computer (35$) and when the light comes back you have to come back to the VW dealer. I bought a ODB2 resetter for that car myself.

My wife drives a Kia Picanto 1.0 liter engine (small car, really small, problably not available in US) and it has 7 years of warranty. Sofar not a single repair on the car (5 years old 35K miles). half the car is plastic and the other half is steel, which will rust, but i guess it will last for 7 years :-)

hobby:
well...our 1978 T2B westfalia is doing great. Just got back from the 2000 mile trip, and no issues. My 1960 beetle is a beetle, enough said....not a lot that could break there. My 914 Porsche....well, I recently required it, so I have no idea yet....
I also had a MK1 GTI 1981 convertable, great fast car, in Mexico Braun (*). only issues were clutch and contacts in the steeringcolomn (from hanging to heavy keys from the contact). A 1991 golf convertable Classic Line 1.8, that car was really cool and fast, a true keeper, but I used it as a DD for years and it got sort of neglected, and gave electrical issues and leaks through rubbers when raining, which was not good for the electronics.... a broken suspensionspring.
(*) that brown car made me promise my wife NEVER to buy a brown car again. I did buy a brown 914 recently......I did not tell her the color when I bought it..... We are still discussing this :-)

It is this "this is more reliable then that" discussion which leads to all sorts of point counter point, I have friends who works as techs for BMW, Lexus, porsche Audi etc and they all have tales to tell. A car is as reliable as it's component manufacturer, the continuing attack of the ECO-Nazis is responsible for lots of this, components are down graded to be replaced with lighter products, plastic wedges on Mk4 Golf windows for example, plastic Ford thrust bearings etc etc.


Of course cost cutting has a lot to do with this but in general I have found all my cars to be reliable I have been exclusively VAG since I was 17.

I have had Golfs, Jettas, Boras, Passats, Polos, Tiguan, Audi A6 and a new A4. The most frustrating failures in all of these cars was the plastic fuel flap retainer on my A6, thin plastic which was obviously too thin. Apart from that nothing.

Best car I had Golf Mk2 16V fast good fun
Worst Car Bora 130PD good car but soulless


R

Its a shame VW does make cars like Toyota or Honda. It would do pretty well.

Back in `88 when we bought our VW Westy new, I purposely avoided their option package with the power windows, door locks, cruise control, etc. because of my concerns with VW quality control, to the extent that we had the dealer do a dealer swap for another Westy in the same Dove Blue, but without the power package.

I also didn't pay their asking $800 for the dealer installed VW branded AM/FM/Cassette radio (no lie on price, & yes, still not a factory option even by `88) - when I could get a better quality top end Sony deck for about $200! I was also proven correct on that, since most VW radios have since died, & I've only replaced the Sony with a newer JVC to get CD & BT added!

I was likewise nonplussed by the fact that the high-$20Ks sticker price on the `88 Westy was a bit more than was my 85 BMW E30 325e 2Dr Sport Coupe - whose electricals & options all still work - when the VW still had the stooooopid single TS indicator light (instead of L & R lights), as the 914s went to for the 74 cost cutting measures.

I mean really! .... The whole purpose of having a TS indicator in the first place, is to give the driver a visual confirmation that they have the correct direction lit, otherwise why bother!?

Although late 90's to current BMWs do have quality & complexity issues - in those days 80-90's they were clearly far better made cars! .... & generally more reliable than any of the contemporary vehicles from the USA Big 3, most of which eventually improved later on.

Both cars have had their driver side window regulators replaced due to high use - electric on the E30 & manual on the Westy, but the BMWs power windows have been flawless so far in 200K miles & 3+ decade. As I said in a prior post - the long term repairs & maintenance on the VW Westy is 4x that of the BMW over the past 28 & 31 years respectively.

The more knowing & sarcastic of us used to call VW's "German Engineering" ad campaign "Fart-fig-newton" because we new in large part it was all just marketing fluff!

VW has always had a schizophrenic corporate personality - trying to do things on the cheap as a continuation of "The Peoples' Car" concept, & trying to be a top German premium/near-luxe brand (recall their Phaeton & branding the Touareg as a Luxe or Premium SUV), & not doing either well as a result - ergo the recent TDI cheating scheme - which has done far more than just cause question on their diesels, going beyond to make folks question what else they've cheated on in terms of quality control & good engineering.

Certainly the Honda/Toytoa & some Nissan, & the later Hyundai/Kia cars have been very consistently good quality & long term reliable cars.

Hyundai pulled themselves out of being crappy cracker-boxes up through the 1980's, into atop quality car since, & back it with a 10yr/100K mile warranty. So if they could pull themselves up, certainly VW & the other German brands can do likewise.

To the contrary, I've heard recently on the Bimmer forums that BMW has shortened their new car & CPO warranties, & the CPO has basically "written out" any liability for their known problems on the cars in the CPO contract language!

Cheers!
Tom
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Kia good quality I laughed so much i dropped my cucumber sandwiches into my morning tea

Veltor, it was during our `85 honeymoon in the UK & Ireland whe we had a crap-box Hyundai hatchback as our hired car BTW. A total pile!

Most of them in the 2000's with family & friends I know here are good quality, & the newer ones which I've had as my rental cars on my business trips here in the States (we don't "hire cars" here ;-) have been nice driving cars, but I can't speak personally to their long term reliability from personal ownership.

And even IF there were problems - at least they give you 10 years or 100,000 miles of warranty to take care of it on THEIR ticket - unlike the current VW/A/P 48/50k warranties, & leaving TDI owners hung out to dry for a year on THEIR cheating scheme!!!!

I've owned 2 P/VW/A vehicles for several decades now - my `73 914-2.0 since Dec. 75 & our `88 VW Westfalia since new - & neither were perfect, but the 914 was much better build quality & less trouble than the WBX Vanagon/T25!

But I'm just not a VW-only guy like you obviously are, but will probably end up with a Porsche Cayenne S soon anyway (unless we go the Lexus GX460/470 route).

Besides, who the heck eats cucumber sandwiches for breakfast anyway!!??
... or at all for that matter!!?? Put some meat or protein in there!

PS - don't push it too much, or you'll open the whole Lucas, Brit car can of worms!

Cheers Mate!
Tom
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