Jake, I think the issue here is that Steve and others are leaning on a statement on your website that appears to say that you took a carb'd Type IV, removed the carbs, fit the Kit Carlson EMS, and saw a 33% increase without doing anything other than tuning the EMS.

Is this true?

i STRONGLY suggest you contact me BEFORE you purchase anything from Steve Stromberg (dba type4parts). send me your phone # and i'll call you on my $.05.

k

Is Jake shying away from the kit carlson kit? And if he is why?

See this thread.

Kit Carlson EMS is on hold.

QUOTE

Jake, I think the issue here is that Steve and others are leaning on a statement on your website that appears to say that you took a carb'd Type IV, removed the carbs, fit the Kit Carlson EMS, and saw a 33% increase without doing anything other than tuning the EMS. Is this true?

That is exactly what happened.. Same day, same weather, same engine, same EGT and not even a valve jb was accomplished between the changes.

That very day is the one that let me see exactly the benefits of programmable FI and the main reason why I have switched to nothing but FI here. I did the same thing with my 912E and while I had no dyno numbers from this swap the 50+ degree drop in head temps with the same EGT and the power difference at lower RPM was worth the swap if nothing else.

The day we saw the huge differences Charles was here from LN, Dave Carlson was here, Len Hoffman was here and even the writer from Excellence magazine saw part of the testing and numbers- This is not bullshit, the graphs are posted at www.aircooledtechnology.com/research.htm

Part of working with a dyno is going by what the engine tells you, the dyno is not giving you results- the engine is, you just have to ppen mindedly listen and instead of arguing with results try to comprehend them... This is the same thing that happened when I tested manifold lengths, velocity stack shapes and lengths and even something as simple as changing oils between tests...

BTW- Forget about peak numbers- a good example of this is my Bus engine.. It made 7HP more with carbs than it does with CIS fuel injection, but the torque curve is tremendously smoother and it makes power all the way down to 500 RPM at WOT, with carbs it fell flat on its face below 1800!

I still love carbs but tomorrow is not yesterday and if I want to stay ahead of the game we have to get efficiency even higher and create cleaner burning engines that can pass emission tests across the country, I'm sure its about to get difficult for performance engines to be streetable and when the time comes we'll already have the details worked out while the others either go under or get caught up way behind the 8 ball.

I did not shy away from the Kit Carlson, Dave has issues with his dad's health and he could probably not keep up with my demand as we HAVE to stay on schedule. The Kit Carlson system is awesome but it needs a bunch of small issues worked out and Dave simply can't do that now, so I looked to SDS for the electronics. I used his system on my 912E for 18K miles and it worked great but had two small issues during that time. The SDS was already a proven system and the guys were willing to give us our own tailored wire harnass and etc and we are testing it now. I have told dave that when he is ready to do future EMS testing my dyno is his if he needs it, by then I hope to have the new dyno set up and running so it will make things much less stressful.

I will be testing more and more engines with carbs Vs EFI as time goes on, like I said I have 7 to test in thge next month and they all vary in displacement from 2056- 3 Liters. I plan on fully optimizing the engines with carbs and using my new datalogger to plot the traits of the tests, this way we can test all 4 CHT and EGT at the same time. These datalogger graphs are easy to post on the net and thats exactly what I plan to do.

The entire time from August- the end of the year I have dedicated my time to EFI testing and comparisons only- I can't wait.

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ May 5 2005, 12:54 PM)

QUOTE Jake, I think the issue here is that Steve and others are leaning on a statement on your website that appears to say that you took a carb'd Type IV, removed the carbs, fit the Kit Carlson EMS, and saw a 33% increase without doing anything other than tuning the EMS. Is this true? That is exactly what happened.. Same day, same weather, same engine, same EGT and not even a valve jb was accomplished between the changes.

Um. Words taste good....

We need an eating my words smiley...

Sorry, Steve, I guess it IS possible to see that kind of increase, then. My sincerest apologies.

Jake, if you ever have a spare second (heh), if you'd post dyno charts with carbs and with EFI, no other changes, I'm sure that would go a long way to dispelling myths and shut people up sooner, including me.

They are posted- on the research page of the site... Or at least they are supposed to be!

QUOTE (lapuwali @ May 5 2005, 02:08 PM)

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ May 5 2005, 12:54 PM) QUOTE Jake, I think the issue here is that Steve and others are leaning on a statement on your website that appears to say that you took a carb'd Type IV, removed the carbs, fit the Kit Carlson EMS, and saw a 33% increase without doing anything other than tuning the EMS. Is this true? That is exactly what happened.. Same day, same weather, same engine, same EGT and not even a valve jb was accomplished between the changes. Um. Words taste good.... We need an eating my words smiley... Sorry, Steve, I guess it IS possible to see that kind of increase, then. My sincerest apologies. Jake, if you ever have a spare second (heh), if you'd post dyno charts with carbs and with EFI, no other changes, I'm sure that would go a long way to dispelling myths and shut people up sooner, including me.

still....the original ad states a huge increase over "existing" FI which to me, means stock.......

QUOTE (Mueller @ May 5 2005, 01:42 PM)

still....the original ad states a huge increase over "existing" FI which to me, means stock.......

Granted, but these numbers either mean carbs really suck compared to stock EFI, or the stock EFI really sucks and is about the same as carbs.

If carbs are roughly equal with the stock EFI, then Jake's results would be equalled even with an stock EFI to aftermarket EFI swap, so Steve's claim is legit.

If a stock to aftermarket EFI swap DIDN'T show a big increase, then carbs are dramatically worse than the stock EFI, and the perennial question on this board of stock EFI v. carbs is answered. No one in their right mind should be running carbs if you get a 20-30% increase by putting on the stock EFI instead. I've thought all along EFI was better, but I have a hard time believing it's THAT much better. I also had a hard time believing that swapping from well set up carbs to EFI would make as big a difference as it shows on Jake's site (and yes, I found those other graphs), but I don't dispute his results.

Jake's results are even relatively apples to apples, since he swapped a pair of IDFs for a pair of Jenvey IDF-like throttle bodies, so one can't claim that there were major changes in induction plumbing messing up the results.

I think carbs suck, Djet is much better, and new injection would be super peachy.


M

Stock FI on the engine I tested would have been a joke- It was 2563ccs...

The carb VS EFI test was as accurate as it could be.. Matching EGT, matching AFR (and even leaner at times with the FI to see if head temps got higher) and equal weather on test day. The runner length was the same and the carbs were 44mm and T/Bs were 45mm..

I think a chunk of the gain also came from the direct fire ignition being spot on with spark delivery and timing. The carbbed engine used a Mallory Unilite and while it's way better than a stock dizzy or 009 its still a dizzy. I have seen a 10% gain in power on a 140HP engine in a test from a Mallory to direct fire, especially at higher RPM. Lets not forget that the direct fire was plotted the same as the advance curve of the Mallory for comparative reasons.

Many of my SDS based systems will be stand alone FI and will not incorporate the ignition into the equation so direct fuel only comparisons will be much easier than it was with the Kit Carlson that HAD to use direct fire.

I am using direct fore on the "Super 2 liter plus" high MPG engine as well as my system going onto the 912E and the one I am installing onto the 3 liter...

The results were real..

peachy cobbler miles. with vanilla ice cream.

k

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ May 5 2005, 02:11 PM)

while it's way better than a stock dizzy or 009 its still a dizzy. I have seen a 10% gain in power on a 140HP engine in a test from a Mallory to direct fire, especially at higher RPM. Lets not forget that the direct fire was plotted the same as the advance curve of the Mallory for comparative reasons.

That's very interesting also. The advantage of what you're calling "direct fire" (wasted spark multi-coil ignition) is longer dwell on each coil between firings, which can esp. become an issue at higher revs. There's also one less "gap" for the spark to jump, since it doesn't have to jump from the rotor to the cap post. I'd expect to see something, but 10% is quite a bit more than I would expect to see.

Keep in mind that I see way more than a 10% gain in testing with the Mallory Vs. a 009 in most cases. Spark accuracy is the HUGE key here as one can use something as novel as a timing light to see the accuracy between the 009 and the Mallory. With the 009 the spark dances all over the timing wheel and you have to guess what the timing really is. With the Mallory its stable and steady and that creates huge gains because some cylinders may be firing at other crank positions than others.

Now keep in mind that I see 10HP gains at peak ALL THE TIME by changing full advance by as little as 2 crank degrees!!!! I see this every time I dyno an engine, sometimes it's not 10HP but it can be even more.

The direct fire is spot on, so when you set the timing at 28 degrees you get exactly 28 degrees at the plug, not 30 sometimes or 32 other times or even 26 degrees at others- its all over the place... That effects performance and even idle.

Crank fired direct fire is even better because the end play of the crankshaft does not alter the timing at all. It is not uncommon to have an engine idling at 5 degrees and have your buddy hit the clutch and see the timing go up 2-3 degrees because the crank was pushed forward a few thou and advanced the timing- this is worse with worn engines... In the old days on circle tracks we'd run more end play and ride the clutch a tad on the straights for a few more ponies....

Spark accuracy is paramount- as RPM gets higher and higher it's results get more and more clear and can be seen a mile away on a dyno chart, even those that show us efficiency and not anything about power at all..(EGT, CHT, BSFC and etc)

Kevin,

The engine was sold as is where is.

If you found that the engine was not suitable at time of delivery you should have called me.

When you took delivery of the engine, when it was remove from Scott the deal was done.

You saw the engine on Saturday but didnt take delivert until Monday that was plenty of time to call me.

I would have refunded your money at the WCC.

The engine will need to be inspected to insure it is returned in resaleable condition and I will send you a refund.

This is the standard that any company uses on returns.

I will arrange the shipment back to me but you will need to prepare the engine for shipment by putting it securily on a pallet and wraping with plastic.

If you need to get a pallet, The pallet will fit in the trunk of your 914.

The trucking company will have a lift gate to hoist the engine into the truck.

I am more than happy to refund your money.

As I have stated in every email I will refund your money.

I am sorry that you got a better engine than you thought you were buying.

I hought it had 1500miles on the motor.

Tom who built it said the actual mileage is about a tank and a half of gas before he decided to pull it out and put a six in.

I thought it was a stock 2056cc rebuild I didnt know that Tom had Put Big Valve 2.0 heads With a full balance A euro cam And all the other good stuff in.

I know most guys would be stoked to get engine with abou 300 miles on a rebuild with a set of ported Big valve 2.0 heads in a fully balanced engine and a new clutch and pressure plate on an engine with cooling tin shroud Altenator and Dizzy for $1900

Like I have told you in every Email I will refund your money and arrange shipping back to me.

Steve

Jake- if you're going w/the SDS system for fuel only, what about the spark? Staying with the Mallory? What about the "safeguard" system that was on your 914? And, what other EFI systems did you consider and why go with SDS, aside from the "simple" qualities of the tuneing? Just curious to see what your thought process was and why-

thanks-

ottox914

We will stay with a Mallory for spark delivery on engines that do not receive direct fire. The Mallory is a 3 wire hook up and does not complicate the install and thats a huge plus along with the fact that I can tune one in my sleep.

The safeguard can still work with the Mallory but not with direct fire. The safeguard is difficult to properly set up and can hamper performance and cause gueswork so I don't use them on 90% of the engines- they are not needed.

As for the other systems I looked into:

I looked at autronic, Haltech, LINK, autronic and all the regular systems. All of them needed a laptop and not all my customers had a laptop and some of them would have been intimidated by the tuning of such a system- not good for me or them. The SDS guys were willing to custom tailor the wire harnass for my engines so they would be perfectly set up for the vehicle the engine was going to be installed into. With SDS the install into the car after we are done with the dyno work is literally a 3 wire hook up and we ship the engine with the entire harnass already terminated and ready to hook to the fuel pump and etc. This was paramount!!! The worst thing in the world for my engine is to be the victim of a hasty crappily planned install thats too involved!

The big thing here was with customer support. The guys at SDS speak english and answer the phone to help us with issues, if there is an issue you can speak to a human that is in the same time zone, not in Australia.. These guys will actually help you!

SDS was chosen not just for simple tuning, but also for simple install. If I have learned anything through the years it's that my engine's worst enemy is the wrong guy with a 13mm wrench so we have to make the engine so damn good and simple that it doesn't need a single adjustment- else we are risking 80 hours of our work on the two minutes it takes to make the one adjustment that can smoke our baby... People do some dumb things!

I've been happy with tech support w/Link* so far.....California rep, talks a little funny with his New Zealand accent, responds to e-mails in a timely manner

*no laptop needed as well, but it cost a few hundred bucks more than SDS, but you knew that

I looked into LINK extensively, but decided against it mainly because of their harnass.. It was choice #2 though with SDS being #1...
My brand new Autronic system is for sale in the classifieds, I decided to use SDS on the 3.0 as well so the autronic goes bye bye... Its at a smokin deal too!

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ May 5 2005, 09:42 PM)

I looked into LINK extensively, but decided against it mainly because of their harnass.. It was choice #2 though with SDS being #1... My brand new Autronic system is for sale in the classifieds, I decided to use SDS on the 3.0 as well so the autronic goes bye bye... Its at a smokin deal too!

interesting......another Autronic might be up for sale soon as well....a fellow club member might sell his to get the Link....

I was "this" close to getting the SDS and "they" actually talked me out of it...I'm sure it would have worked fine, but I wanted more gadgets to play with or knowing me, I wanted more featues/options so that I have more excuses not to have a running car

Steve, how much for that motor, injected?



M

Gadgets can be good... Or very bad according to the guy thats playing with them!

gadgets sell things, simplicity keeps them running..

I want my system on the complete engines to need less than 3 wires to be connected to have the car up and running and I'm even shooting a video to accompany the arrangements that will walk the users through the engine install step by step.

That engine was built by a guy down the street from me who is not online (He just is not into computers).
He builds bitchen sailboats The Bristol Channel Cutters and cool cars mini Coopers and Morris minors with big engines.
Aong with a bunch of other cars.
He built a 914 with the engine then drove it and wanted more so he is building a 3.0 six.
He needed to get the engine out of his way so I posted it here for him.

ok. tell the whole story. if you don't want to, i will, in my own special way, when i'm ready. where are those manifolds? just answer that one stupid question steve. EXACTLY when and where did you remove them. once the check was in your hand the engine WAS MINE!! the only reason you had to touch it was to load it up. you had no business putting a wrench on it. tell the truth steve. please send me that business license information. your conditions of return change daily. if you think i have trust enough to send that engine back without my money you're crazy. that you think you need inspect the engine is even crazier. are you worried i might pull parts off it as you did? your opinion of what YOU think I should have done just does not factor in, i could not care less. i will be contacting tom tomorrow so i may get his mailing address and forward your last email to him . the one where you imply he is a liar. enjoy!! how is it you get yourself in so many flame wars? don't bother miles. it has a cam for carbs. i don't want you shipping an engine to georgia that won't work for you and is missing components. besides steve can't sell what he doesn't own. keep us posted steve.

k

k

Kevin I have told you over and over I will refund your money.
You had plenty ot time to inspect the engine before you took delivery.
The Carbs and mainfold were never included with the engine .
You coukld have called me while you were at the WCC before you took delivery and I would have returned your money at he WCC Again if you are not happy with the engine I will refund your money I have told you over and over that I will refund your money.

If you are unhappy with the engine I will refund your money.

wow theres alota internet engine builders piping in on this thread. I just started reading it. the start was technically interesting, Intriguing, but jerry springerism has prevailed again...
ya gotta ask yourself; how many engines have ya really built ?

you're crazy steve. get professional help. where did the ad ever say no carbs or intakes. that's right it didn't. it said your own carbs. you had plenty of time to get the engine specs you failed to provide. it was a nice blocking move to keep me from contacting tom. first it was "there were no intakes" now it's "they weren't included". what's next? keep on with it steve. people will draw their own conclusions. if this was an isolated incident that would be one thing. you piss people off all the time. here and other places. i have to give you credit for doing it so well. good question. how many? that lasted?

k

Look Kevin I will refund your money if you are umhappy with the engine.

How many times do I have to say this?

So I will say it again.

Kevin If you are unhappy with the engine I will refund your money.

Just put the engine on a pallet.

I will make arrangement to have the trucking company pick up the engine.

Upon arrival here and inspection of the engine to insure it is returned in a resaleable condition your money will be refunded.

Again I will refund your money if you are unhappy with the engine.

Jake picked SDS for the same reason I did....simple.

I heard many a guy say "yuck..no data-logging...no bells... no whistles"

Who cares...does it run the engine and do it well?

yep!

Is it simple to program?

yep!

Do they have good tech support? Do they answer your questions? do they stand 100% behind their product???

yep, yep and yep!

Sold.

Two years on SDS and I'm very happy with it.

"Im an asshole - and ive been edited"

Don

QUOTE (BigOlJohnson @ Jun 6 2005, 11:37 AM)

"Im an asshole - and ive been edited" Don

Don take your pointless shit elsewhere.

AA


-this thread is closed-