Sure, this is a re-run.

I ran the track and got brake fade 3/4 of way into each session.

I just want to upgrade the pads and fluid right now.

What do you recommend/are using.
Wear is not a factor. I want the best stopping power for the stock FOUR calipers/rotors.

Do I need to replace the M/C with a bigger unit and what are your feelings on the prop valve vs "tee" arguement.

Also considering the SS brake lines.

Thanks and thanks to Mark for helping with the brake bleeding on track day.

KT

Should I answer.. or do you want me to wait ?

B

lol

You know no one is going to reply now.....

lol

probably having 100% FRESH brake fluid in your car would have helped... that shit looked like coffee!!!

(lol, had to give you a chiding, trekkor!)

I probably should let Brad answer since he knows you and your car. But, I've never had brake fade yet, so I think you need a good flushing and use ATE racing fluid. That would be a good start.

QUOTE

But, I've never had brake fade yet, so I think you need a good flushing and use ATE racing fluid. That would be a good start.

Drew what brakes? Stock -6 brakes?

Trekkor... you've got a -6 in there now right? With stock -4 brakes?

Drew's right... ATE Blue and start over. Sounds to me like you may need different brakes and rotors.

Aren't 986 Monoblocks getting pretty cheap? Get a set of those with matching rotors and your troubles would be over.

QUOTE (914RS @ May 2 2005, 08:40 PM)

Aren't 986 Monoblocks getting pretty cheap? Get a set of those with matching rotors and your troubles would be over.

paragon sells the whole 986 front brake conversion for 1k.

BTW he still needs 911 3.5" struts to utilize that, and a RJ or GPR rear monoblock mounts

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ May 2 2005, 07:38 PM)

QUOTE But, I've never had brake fade yet, so I think you need a good flushing and use ATE racing fluid. That would be a good start. Drew what brakes? Stock -6 brakes? Trekkor... you've got a -6 in there now right? With stock -4 brakes? Drew's right... ATE Blue and start over. Sounds to me like you may need different brakes and rotors.

I have A calipers in front with stock in the rear. I just pulled the rears off and am changing to 911 SC calipers and rotors. I will lose the hand brake but thats okay. I found that one of my rear calipers was missing the adjusting screw on one side. Don't know when or how that happened but it was probably contributing to my long pedal travel and slight modulation.

QUOTE (trekkor @ May 2 2005, 07:26 PM)

I ran the track and got brake fade 3/4 of way into each session.

get rid of the snow-plow so your brakes get some cooling air !!!

Andy

I have to agree with Eric, change to larger brakes and change out your fluid and M/C. A fast car is only as good as it's brakes.

QUOTE (Brad Roberts @ May 2 2005, 07:28 PM)

Should I answer.. or do you want me to wait ?

QUOTE

You know no one is going to reply now.....

I'm not smart enough to keep my mouth shut when I should.

I'm no expert, but I do have experience with brake problems. I am sure Brad-hole will be happy to point out where I am wrong. Here is what has worked for me.
1.) Upgrading to SS lines will help.
2.) A 19mm MC is a good thing.
3.) Dump the stock proportioning valve and put in a T.
4.) Super Blue fluid is the nuts. I have boiled Motul in the past.
5.) Always bleed the system before any track event.
6.) Heat is the enemy. Brake ducts for cooling help a lot.
7.) Street or 'sport' pads are no substitute for real Track Pads.

QUOTE (skline @ May 2 2005, 08:46 PM)

I have to agree with Eric, change to larger brakes and change out your fluid and M/C. A fast car is only as good as it's brakes.

not neccesarily LARGER brakes, but VENTED brakes...

kinda limited with 4 lug. unless you buy mueller ™ hubs, and vented M calipers

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ May 2 2005, 07:48 PM)

but VENTED brakes...

see my previous post ...

vented brakes only work IF they get airflow. his airdam is sweeping the pebbles from the track, there is *no* airflow under his car, there's no way to get air through vented rotors with this setup.

trek, the solution is MUCH cheaper than all that was suggested above, simple *remove* the air-dam ...
Andy

QUOTE

I have to agree with Eric, change to larger brakes and change out your fluid and M/C. A fast car is only as good as it's brakes.

A proper stock system with GREAT pads will work just fine.

John,

You nailed it. The next "greatest" thing is the unltra expensive Castrol brake fluid.

There is nothing wrong with the stock brakes. Trekkor fits in the same category as everyone else who has brake issues:

1.shitty fluid
2.shitty pads
3.worn stock components

All this adds up to a person who compounds the issue by hanging on the brake pedal because the car wont stop. Get GREAT pads. Replace the lines. Get a tee. Put a 19mm in.

B

Aaron,

Help me out..

QUOTE

unless you buy mueller ™ hubs, and vented M calipers

Mueller did the drawings and test fit one of his Mazda calipers. It pretty much ended there.


B

i added a green arrow to show you your real problem ...

Andy

John, you answered my question, nicely.

Nathan, I had that coming.
My plan was to have the whole system flushed before WCC, but, ( insert favorite excuse here ) ...

Anybody wanna tell me what brand of pad to use?

C'mon Brad, join in. I know we've had this discussion before and you've told me. Just making conversation.

KT

lmao andy!

I cant say antyhingnlkwenqRQGK

QUOTE

Anybody wanna tell me what brand of pad to use?

I like Porterfield. Race Compound.


B

QUOTE (Brad Roberts @ May 2 2005, 08:56 PM)

Aaron, Help me out.. QUOTE unless you buy mueller ™ hubs, and vented M calipers Mueller did the drawings and test fit one of his Mazda calipers. It pretty much ended there. B

the billet hubs.... M calipers/SC rotors you know?

QUOTE (Brad Roberts @ May 2 2005, 08:01 PM)

I cant say antyhingnlkwenqRQGK

ask and you shall receive ...

hey trek, still wanna hang out this week while you're down here in my neck of the woods?
Andy

Figure that out...

My air dam is cool.
"Go get your own".

So, 16 month old unknown brake fluid without being bled is bad, then?

KT

ps, I'll bring the videos.

I was running a 2800 lbs tail dragger with stock SC brakes....which most 914/6 use.
FRESH ATE blue, Ate power slot rotors and Porterfield pads.....nary a hiccup for three run groups. BTW...speed bleeders are a gud thang.

ATE makes fluid in blue and gold...change colors each flush and you know when you got a clean stuff.

I have a splitter up front with air ducts for the brakes....keep the dam but vent it for some brake cooling. Since you like to fabricate...consider some ducting attached to the dam that would direct air to the rotors.

Prolly worth another five page thread.

QUOTE

Prolly worth another five page thread.

Night of the living thread...

KT

Soo.... SS lines are better than rubber lines?

Alright, here goes

Leave the air dam on and put some ducts in, to run for cooling air. This will keep the air out from under the car at speed and keep the brakes cool. You can always block them off on the street.

Call Hawk and get some Hawk HPs or Blacks depending on how long your sessions are. They will work well on the street as well.

Stainless lines, put an adjustable prop valve in the back so you can tune the brakes and step up in master cylinder size. You might also look at adding a Stewart lock-resistant brake valve.

Ford Heavy Duty brake fluid has a dry boiling point of 585 or something like that. It is also very cheap. I have used it on many race cars with no problems. The GTU RX7 that I maintain used it last weekend at the Mitty to take first in class. As long as you keep the brakes bleed you will be OK.

Or you could always bite the bullet and upgrade to these:

QUOTE ("Z" @ May 2 2005, 08:24 PM)

I have a splitter up front with air ducts for the brakes....keep the dam but vent it for some brake cooling. Since you like to fabricate...consider some ducting attached to the dam that would direct air to the rotors.

Bill P had dryer ducts to the brakes on his/my car...

QUOTE

put an adjustable prop valve in the back so you can tune the brakes

and after 3-4 events of playing with the settings.. you will end up with it wide open (which is why I skip all the BS of trying to plumb one in to only find out I need to set it wide open)

This is just experience talking. I know lots of people with adj. prop valves in their cars... the common demonimator ? they run them wide open (especially in the 6 cyl cars)

Save your money.

The other way to control bias:

Run sticky pads up front and run Pep Boys crap in the rear.. or vice versa depending on what you want.


B

Just curious, did Chris' race car run a tee? His brakes felt really solid.

You said you'd stand the car on it's nose. You weren't kidding.

KT

Just Autocross? Stock brakes should be fine. Get the mongo fluid and pads.

If it twas my ride I'd go with "Mueller Hubs" (sorry Brad... I only tease ya if'n I like ya)

Seriously... minimum I would have on that car is M-calipers up front and a T-fitting. Drew's set-up would be my choice... cept;

Drew, if that's a stock -6 caliper you have on the rear then those SC calipers won't do anything for you. They still have the same 38mm pistons that your -6 calipers have. It wasn't until 84 with the Carrera's that they changed that piston to 42mm. If they're -4 calipers then that's another story and that's a good swap. And... if they're the later Carrera rears you may want to think about that proportioning valve again. Especially with A or S-Calipers up front. Just thinking

doesn't seem like anyone here is really fretting much over brake bias. it would seem to me that this would be a crucial variable, depending on how the car is setup, how it transfers weight, etc...??? am i wrong, making too big a deal out of this?

I think you're right but my last post was pretty much biased toward bias I like:

M-Calipers - -4 Rears - T-fitting
M-Calipers - -6 Rears - P-Valve
A or S-Calipers - -6 Rears - T-Fitting
A or S-Calipers - M Rears - T-Fitting
A or S-Calipers - Carrera Rears - P-Valve
930 Calipers - Carrera Rears - T-Fitting

I agree with the hub designer, thinkerupper guy... The adjustable P-valves are too often set wide open.

QUOTE

Just curious, did Chris' race car run a tee?

He does have a tee in place. He *talked* about a running a bias valve, because he felt something weird with the car in ONE corner of the track. You dont drive around the course adjusting the brake bias for evey corner so it doesnt really make sense to have great braking for 14 corners out of 15.

My all time favorite: Carrera fronts on the rear.. turbo 944's up front. From there I go into full blown custom braking setups with Colemans or something.


B

QUOTE (VegasRacer @ May 2 2005, 10:47 PM)

7.) Street or 'sport' pads are no substitute for real Track Pads.

or vice versa.

running real Track Pads will probably have you blowing through the first corner at an autocross (which is the venue in question). track pads work great when they're hot but are less effective when they're not.

i agree with your other points without qualification.

there are racing classes that require stock, solid rotors, and they can be made to last, but it involves properly engineered and fabricated cooling. i haven't seen anything lately that indicates to me that the methods shown in Carroll Smith's "Prepare To Win" (his first book, now ~30 years old) can be improved on much.

What I don't understand is people not changing brake fluid before each event. Reports from WCC and several other events mentioned old brake fluid. Even for a street car, change the fluid twice a year. Track cars, before each event. It is the cheapest insurance known. It gives you the chance to inspect all the brake lines and other parts of the system.

QUOTE ("Z" @ May 2 2005, 08:24 PM)

ATE makes fluid in blue and gold...change colors each flush and you know when you got a clean stuff.

The ATE Blue can says Racing Fluid, the Gold can does not. Are they the same fluid, they have the same boiling point.

QUOTE (Brad Roberts @ May 2 2005, 07:53 PM)

QUOTE I have to agree with Eric, change to larger brakes and change out your fluid and M/C. A fast car is only as good as it's brakes. A proper stock system with GREAT pads will work just fine. John, You nailed it. The next "greatest" thing is the unltra expensive Castrol brake fluid. There is nothing wrong with the stock brakes. Trekkor fits in the same category as everyone else who has brake issues: 1.shitty fluid 2.shitty pads 3.worn stock components All this adds up to a person who compounds the issue by hanging on the brake pedal because the car wont stop. Get GREAT pads. Replace the lines. Get a tee. Put a 19mm in. B

I'm with Brad on this one. Stock 914 brakes are pretty darn good when you maintain them. SS lines and good fluid are religion for me. I have Porterfields on the front and I think you have seen me locked up going into fast corners. I just need to get some of those pads on the back soon so my bias is balanced.

First, you deserve a couple of good smacks on the ol nuggin' for not changing your brake fluids before the track event

There you go...

Like the others said...

ATE Super blue racing (changing with "gold" when flushing)
duct that snowplow and get some cooling air on yur rotors

If that don't help (still got fading), THEN you need to look into bigger brakes/rotors

SS lines won't help in keeping your brakes cool, but they can frim up the pedal a little

QUOTE (Brad Roberts @ May 2 2005, 10:43 PM)

QUOTE Just curious, did Chris' race car run a tee? He does have a tee in place. He *talked* about a running a bias valve, because he felt something weird with the car in ONE corner of the track. You dont drive around the course adjusting the brake bias for evey corner so it doesnt really make sense to have great braking for 14 corners out of 15. My all time favorite: Carrera fronts on the rear.. turbo 944's up front. From there I go into full blown custom braking setups with Colemans or something. B

Brad,

How do you fit Carrera fronts on the rear? Isn't the bolt spacing 3.5 on the Carrera calipers and 3 on the rear suspension?

Steve

Personal experience at DE:

Stock -4 brake system. New ATE Super Blue. $30 brake pads from Pelican. No front valence. I noticed a little fade at the beginning of the day, but it never got worse. Somewhere in the second session I stopped paying attention and just braked my little heart out for the rest of the day.

Correct on the bolt spacing. Cut the stock ears off and weld on a new flat plate with the proper spacing and location. Not easy

The other combo that works well: M calipers on the rear and 944 Turbo fronts.


B

Thanks, Brad
I was hoping that someone made an adapter that would simplify the job - but no suck luck.

Steve

Like everyone has mentioned, get some air to the front brakes!

Bleed fluid before every event

I like Hawk Blue pads, but have had great results with Porterfields.

The brakes on my 914 are a bastard setup,

Wilwood Superlites w/944T rotors up front
Carrera calipers with carrera discs in the rear
19mm m/c

We found the Ate Blue/Gold is nothing more than high quality street fluid. At CMP and Roebling Road we had major fluid boiling problems on the 935 clone, and switched to the expensive Castrol SRF fluid, and have had no more fluid problems.

Another fluid that I like and use in my 914 is Castrol syntheic brake fluid, Its cheaper than the Ate fluids, and has higher boiling points. The Ford fluid is also a good bang for the buck fluid

You've seen us run auto-x's with the old 628. We also ran that car HARD (2 drivers) at DE's and Time Trials. We never had brake fade....

Fronts: 911T vented discs and calipers
Rears: 944 S vented discs and calipers

You lose the parking brake.

Fluid: ATE Superblue

Pads: Porterfield R4's (race compound, not street)

Adjustable Brake Prop: Yes (I ran it wide open most of the time but at Sears Point I would dial in more bias. It would feel better under hard braking).

I like the air venting to the front brakes. We put in vents and never had a fade issue.

The Porterfields worked fine for Auto-x or track. The car was dedicated to racing. Not street legal.

Here are some pics of our vents.....

Bill P.

pic 2

pic 3

QUOTE

You've seen us run auto-x's with the old 628. We also ran that car HARD (2 drivers) at DE's and Time Trials. We never had brake fade.... Fronts: 911T vented discs and calipers

which for you 4 luggers out there, the billet hubs run the same vented discs and calipers....and they work !!!!!

I would recommend the Porterfield street compound brake pads, not the Porterfield race compound. The race ones, while being fantastic at "working" temperatures, are rather sub-par when dead-cold. That's the first corner on the track (no BFD), or pretty much every single corner you take on the street (very BFD!).

ATE Super Blue, ATE Gold, Ford Heavy Duty are all very good street brake fluids.

Motul is probably better, Vegas Racer's experience notwithstanding. I know more people who have had fewer problems with the Motul than with the ATE fluids.

The SRF is "the shit", to appropriate B's expression. Amazing stuff--and so is the cost!!

If you still had a -4, I would suggest an adjustable proportioning valve over a tee. Not sure in your case, because you have significant extra weight in the rear of the car (six-cylinder motor) which gives the rear wheels better grip and lets you send more pressure to them...

--DD