I have been trying to get my conversion done in time for Okteenerfest. I have run up against a brick wall and just cant seem to figure out what i am doing wrong.

If anyone can help me by looking at my tune files or providing insight it will be very much appreciated.

I can get th car to idle but nothing beyond that. Any use of the throttle is less than impressive and almost useless. Meaning it bogs down and does not accelerate at all.

I have no clue what i am missing.

2056 with new low impeadance injectors. Bosch Wideband O2 sensor.

Really need some suggestions. Not sure if i can post the tune files here. But will try.

Hey Mike,

I'm just a newbie here, so I'm kinda talking out of my arse...but I'm interested on the most novice level about microsquirt as well, only because about 10-15years ago I owned a 74' model that had stock efi, and it plagued me for awhile.

That being said, I was doing some research on the interwebs and came across a video linked to thedubshop.net. I'm sure they are probably well known here, but I don't know, nor can I speak of personal experience with them.

However, they seem to be very knowledgeable about the whole topic. Just say'n, ...if you're in a jam, they might be a good resource....for what it's worth.

-Craig

Mike,
Might want to try the bird board as well. I believe there might be more folks who have gone the 'squirt route there.

You might also email the guys at DIY Autotune to see if they can help or point you in a direction for some professional help.

Dee

Can you post your build details, or if you already have a thread on this a linky.
Plus list all your values, some one may spot an error.

The issue you are posting could be a simple program input error, I once chased something similar for a whole day only to realize I entered the wrong fuel cut value in one spot.

It's too rich

Even some screen shots of the fuel and timing tables would be helpful to start off with; they're pretty easy to sanity check. Where did you get the flow rate information for your injectors?

If you want to send me your map I can take a look-I'm noof a big MS guy but I have played around with some systems. My email is my username here @gmail.com

Not sure what's happening but only running on 2 cylinders. 3/4 is dead! Will have to check some connections.

Don't give up!!!

I too am looking into this in the near future and your thread has been very inspiring.

I hope you get your engine running beyond idling and I know people here will help you get there.

Good luck, and keep the faith.

Ok so made progress. Had some values wrong made some changes. It run but like crap. Will contact DIY and see if someone would like to take a shot at it.

Actually drove it.

You said you have a bosch wide band. Are you using it through MS instead of a meter?
Where do you have the sensor mounted? If it's on the muffler tip the sensor may not be getting hot enough and not reading correctly.

Without values and details I can't be of help.

McMark is pretty good with Microsquirt.

I think that first you need to be firing on all 4 cylinders and know that you're getting fuel injected on all 4.
Once that's done, your map should at least get some response if you're getting a good manifold pressure signal, so look carefully at that using a vacuum guage hooked in with a "T" connector somewhere that will show the manifold pressure. If you're on ITB's the manifold pressure signal will be very choppy & hard for the ECU to follow well. For that reason I switched my SDS injection system to throttle position only. I'm going to try to attach my SDS map--it's an excel spreadsheet. SDS has a dead nuts simple approach to the map for fuel pulse duration: Multiply the TP "value" in column B by the RPM fuel "Value" in column E to get the injector duration pulse each time it fires.
Hope this will help a bit...

Click to view attachment

you mention the car idles. Does it idle smoothly? If so, I would expect that you are firing 4 cylinders.

Is your WBO2 reading in TunerStudio (or Megatune?) If so, what is the AFR reading? Did you setup TS to read the WBO2 correctly?

If you PASS the first two steps above the next question is: Have you started to tune the car? Do you understand tuning the car - meaning recognizing Lean vs Rich? EFI is exactly the same as adjusting the mixture with a screwdriver or changing jets in a carb with the exception of using keystrokes and instantaneous feedback.

If the car is lean, add more fuel. If its rich, take fuel away. TunerStudio will even do this for you if your target AFR table is good.

The car will absolutely run like crap if you have not tuned the car.

1. Pull the plugs to make SURE you get spark on all cylinders.
2. Pull the injectors to mare SURE you get fuel on all cylinders.
3. Once you have fuel and spark post screenshots of all your settings and tables in the microsquirt.

This why I keep asking for some info on your system, ITB may never have good enough vac signal and running TPS only solves 90% of low vac issues.

The specifics

Tuner Studios MSv3.0.28 –
Firmware MS2 /Extra3.4.2 release 2016421

Porsche 914
4-cyl 2056 CC displacement
High impedance injectors Flow at 3-BAR 134 CC
Bosch TPS
MAP GM 3 Bar
GM Open element IAT
AC Delco 213-928 GM Multi-Purpose Temperature Sensor
36 in 1 Crank wheel VR sensor
VW Passat IAC Bosch 0280140512

Current Tune Click to view attachment
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachment[attachmentid=617
927]Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment

The one thing I noticed is that my MAP seem high even at idle. Only going down to the 40's? Wonder if my MAP calibration is incorrect. Using straight GM 3-bar from DIY.

It does look like I did not have the Barometer Sensor set to the same as the MAP

Click to view attachment

I resolved the cylinders. Ground wire came lose. Seems to be running on all cylinders.

I think I do have the understanding on how to tune but I think I must have something incorrect because the efforts to tune do not produce the expected results.

I think I had an issue with the MAP setting and the injector sizes.

I feel your pain. I have an EG33 so can't help too much but the one thing I overlooked was the condition of the plugs. As Rich mentioned, you are, or at least were, running rich at some point. It's just part of the dialing in process.

Here's what my plugs looked like when I pulled them:

Click to view attachment

And then I heated them with an ordinary canister torch:

Just like new and there was an immediate improvement in the performance.

Click to view attachment

Wish I could tell you things are going well, but due to the challenges with the EG33 VR sensors I went back to the stock ECU for now.

You're running to lean for an aircooled engine, I'd be aiming for 13.5:1 max, 12.5 is OK. The heads actually get some cooling from the cool fuel charge.
I can run 14:1 because I have nickies, but after that I start seeing a rise in head temps.

I do agree the 134CC injectors are to small. I didn't look at charts for very long, but do you know what your injector duty cycle is? You should never run more than 80%.
Also many injectors are designed to run at a certain duty cycle and do not perform well when they are out of their OE range.

For example 914 L-jet 1.8 injector is somewhere in the mid 250cc range and they do not work well at all with aftermarket systems, where as 2.0 d-jet injectors are huge but perform well at almost any duty cycle.

Just an FYI, the couple of L-jet systems I've tested including an L-jet on a 914 2.0 all ran about 13.5:1 AFR

the 134 was at 50%

Click to view attachment

OK so I have gone back through all of the advice given. While I thought I had it resolved, I a still not getting one of the injector banks to fire.

Definitely only running on 2-cylinders.

Seems like the INJ 2 bank Pin 10 is not putting out a ground signal.

I have verified that the injectors are mechanically operational- The fire when given 12 V and a ground and I have spark at each plug.

I have verified the wiring is correct and connections are in place from the injection to the AMP Seal Block.

Switch out the wiring from side to side and the problem follows INJ 2 Pin 10 as moving INJ 1 from side to side results in operational injectors and firing.

I have no concept in how my wiring can be faulty and I don't think there is a setting other than turning on sequential fire that would cause one of the injector banks not to fire at the same time.

I have to think this is yet again a hardware problem?

I'd have a crack at putting the correct injector flow rate in the software.
Pretty sure you'll find static flow is the value used.
Also you don't have a barometric sensor connected so get rid of those values at turn the option off.
Also worth Turning off cold start corrections off for your initial tune.
I can't see what you're doing for lambda sensor. Wired to the ecu?
After that it should be slightly more manageable

So INJ 2 bank Pin 10 is not putting out a ground signal you have to go through all your wiring with an ohm meter and check for continuity. I'm not sure on the ecu check, sorry.
Who built the MS?

The injectors should be fine, but I only run 30-35lbs pressure.

Static value is almost always used.

Is there a "key-on" barometric pressure sensor option (using the MAP sensor)?


Unfortunately, it appears that way based on my read of your description.

You checked to make sure the non-firing injectors have 12V at their connectors? And that the ground side of the injector connector has continuity all of the way to the MS connector? I'm reading the above like you did that, but just want to verify.

Do you by chance have an oscilloscope? Or can you use another output rather than the one on Pin 10?

No oscilloscope. I have checked all of the connections and wires. Comes down to all of the injectors will fire if 2 injectors are attached to INJ 1 wire. No injector will fire when attached to the INJ 2 ground.

Because these are high impedance injectors I don't think the one operational channel can drive both banks.

Wow. Maybe I am a little sensitive over this now that I have purchased 2 ECUs. Just talked to DIY and I think they said it had to be operator error not hardware. While that hit me a bit wrong, if it is just me and it can be fixed easily then I am all good.

Going to go home and do another data log and see what it shows.

It does sound like a hardware issue since you've checked both wires end-to-end. As an aside, I've never been happy with the robustness of MS hardware (Microsquirt in particular). It doesn't self-protect well and doesn't seen to have the greatest quality-control either.

Does TunerStudio allow you to manually turn on an output? That way you could make absolutely sure the pin is not grounding with a plain multimeter.

Limited ability to configure outputs. Maybe someone with more skill than I have in electronics could work it out but. I configured a control for my external oil cooler fan but that is about the limit of my ability.

All I know is that the first unit had a defective resistor in the injector triggering circuit. This one seems to have an issue in that same circuit. Seems like a consistent issue in this circuit. Could it be my wiring? Sure but the circuit for the injectors is just so simple that it is hard to mess up 2 wires consisting of power and ground.

But I will go pull the log and see what they say.

If you do into Tools>Injector Test Mode you should be able to force your injectors on continuously (set number of repeats to something high, pulse width to max of 65ms, and off time to 0ms). I'd unplug the connectors at that point and just look at the INJ2 pin. If it doesn't ground and the INJ1 pin does, you definitely have a hardware issue. That should take every other component out of the loop.

That is a good Test idea! Will post the results.

OK took a chance and reloaded the firmware to ECU. Problem solved. Now i just have to get it timed and driavable!

Thanks for the support.

Awesome! Having to reload firmware is a little ridiculous, but I'm, glad you got that fixed.

So not quite drivable yet. But certainly running. Any insight on tuning tips would be appreciated. Now i am going super lean or rich on acel and get in backfires?

You'll want to look at your O2 sensor to guide your tuning. What is it saying while you're accelerating?

What are your accel enrichment settings?

Is the O2 sensor/gauge looped back into the MS for live correction?

Was going back through the set up guidance and it recommended setting up the VE table with the accel enrichment off. Looks like I will need to revise the VE table and then set the accel enrichment.

I didn't see or missed it , ITB's Or single TB?

Backfiring can be cured by adding a TPS (on decel) fuel cut.

Single TB.

Currently not cutting fuel on decel.

Looking at the graphs it seems like everything should be working but it just isn't.Click to view attachment

I haven't read the whole thread, but I've been running Megasquirt for many years and I never needed a fuel cut on decel. If you're seriously backfiring you most likely have an intake/exhaust leak or the mixture is grossly off. My car burbles and pops slightly on deceleration but it's not objectionable and i've attributed it to some small exhaust leaks near the head.

It is far from being set up to run well! Had a recent issue with a firmware problem so I am just in the beginning stages of tuning while running on 4-cylinders. Likely a bit soon to attribute issues to leaks.

Planning on working back through everything this afternoon.

I guess my $0.02 would be - don't worry about stuff like fuel cuts until you get the base map sorted out. Those features just add complexity and aren't strictly necessary.

Somewhere in the menus you can pull up the 'Realtime Display' which shows all of the readings from the sensors. Actually, realtime display pulls up graphs, and then there's a button to see all the actual numeric values. Post a picture of that, with the key on, but not running. I've recently realized how vital understanding the 'non-running' readings of sensors is. For example, your MAP sensor should be reading around 100kpa while not-running (at sea level). It's pretty easy, once you know, to look at the gauges before you start the car and see if that looks right. Also, when the engine is cold, the CHT and Intake Air Temp sensors should read about the same. If they don't, one of them is configured wrong.


Also, have you used a timing light to confirm the timing displayed on the laptop matches what you see in real life?

Oh, and finally, I think it's prudent to turn off all closed-loop interaction while tuning. If you're trying to tune the VE table, and the AFR table is fiddling with things 'behind your back' then you're going to have a tough time because you'll make a change in the VE table, and then the AFR controls will put it back where it was (essentially). Tune the VE table open loop, then once it's running well turn on closed loop. This will make it run worse, until you tweak the AFR table so it runs back where it was. At the end of that process you have a tuned VE table and a tuned AFR table and everything is happy.

I think I got caught by the closed loop problem on my first attempt. Will see if I can find that display.

The closed loop authority is typically pretty low, like 10 or 15%, so it will push things around but usually not in a way that prevents tuning. Some people like to disable it, though. I've tuned both ways - sometimes the closed loop correction helps because it sort of steers things in the right direction and your initial tune can be pretty rough but the car will still be drivable (assuming the AFR targets are reasonable).

Had to look it up...

It's under Basic/Load Settings. Then click 'All Output Channels' at the bottom.

I told myself I wasn't going to get involved in another Megasquirt troubleshooting sessions on the board, the amount of crazy uneducated bat:stromberg: advice i have seen around here over the years has really turned me off to discussing it.

That being said I have been having to much fun with it again lately so here we go...

First things first, dont make changes based on suggestions from anyone that isnt looking at 100% of your configuration, it will most likely mess you up more than you already are. This is a very complex system and its a lot more involved than turning a screw to lean it out, in reality there about about 1000 adjustable values here that interact with each other. There should be ZERO guesswork here as every variable is defined and should be set appropriately.

ok done with the rant and on to business:


1. First order of business, is the MSQ file you posted still current or have you fixed some things there? I see a few fundamental problems with the basic settings.

2. As Mark Henry stated earlier we really need full build details. The one detail I am most concerned with at the moment is are you controlling fuel and ignition or just fuel? If you are control spark you need to fix your advance table based on known advance curves for a type 4 you are way over advanced (assuming the physical timing is set correctly).

3. Your req_Fuel value needs to be set CORRECTLY. Yes technically you can set this to just about anything and then tweak your map around until the car runs but doing so will then render the values in your VE table meaningless. (seriously people tweaking the req_Fuel value around to "fix" a problem may be my #1 megasquirt pet peve) req_fuel is a constant that is set based on your injector setup NOT A TUNING VALUE. Specifically the number is a constant that represents a fuel pulse width at 100% VE based on your engine displacement and injector flow rate. Set this correctly and the numbers in your VE table will actually represent the volumetric efficiency for your engine at the given RPM/load bins. This then makes it a lot easier to roughly predict what those values should be. SCIENCE!!! NEAT! Given you had your injectors flow benched you are ahead of the game in that you know exactly what they flow (270cc/min@43psi) so the only question left is what fuel pressure are you running them at? The current req_fuel value you have set of 17.3 would only be correct if you were running at 24psi which i suspect is not the case. If you are running stock 914 fuel pressure 29psi those injectors calculate out at flowing ~220cc/min so your req fuel value would be 15.7 This is a calculated value, there is only one right answer so we need to know what your fuel pressure actually is. Lowering this value is going to lean out everything across the board so IF you have trouble starting after this change you will need to add fuel back by increasing values in the VE table.

Fix these things first and get it idling and then ill go over tuning fundamentals/workflow


looking at your VE and advance tables its easy to see why it is running the way you say it is

Ahhhh! You have to tune in Open Loop! Always!
Closed loop is something you could try after tuning in open loop. Closed loop may always run too lean for our cars that like things a little rich side.

On the injectors 270cc is fine if they do that at 30-35 PSI. I totally hate increasing pressure to increase flow, to me it's a terrible way to compensate for incorrect injector sizing. I run at 35 psi.

Thanks for the help> It is a huge learning curve!

I am running right at 49lbs of fuel pressure which should put me right in the range of the rated injector flow. But what I wondered is if the max flow rate should be used or the 50% duty cycle? I changed to the 50% and as you said a number of adjustments to the VE table were required. If I should use the max flow it is an easy fix for the VE table if you look at the math!