Hey Guys!

I can't figure out what happened in this crash, which you may or may not have seen on You Tube. You can easily find it by searching "914 Accident".

Here is the URL: https://youtu.be/BHYYlTZIZQ4

I estimate that in the video the guy covers about 125m in 3 seconds (while sliding), which is 2500 per minute...150 km/hr or 91 mph.

So he's going into a curve which isn't sharp at just under 100 MPH with nearly optimum tires and suspension, and he loses it. I can't speak from experience at all here. I've never been in a curve at that speed, athough I can say that my car, with 195-50 Goodrich G-Force Sport Comps (HIGHLY recommend, by the way, ) front AND rear sway bars and Bilstine performance struts, can easily handle much sharper turns (exit ramps) at about 60 MPH with no problem.

I'm interested in hearing opinions of what happened here and why he seems to have not counter steered at all to regain control.

Looking forward to your comments, opinions and insights!

Thanks!

By the way, anybody heading over to Munich for the Oktoberfest?



M.i.M.

More about this here: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=213555

If you look at the very beginning, the driver was already in trouble, fighting grip and coming (too close?) to the inside of the corner. No idea of actual speed or what the course looked like preceding where the video picks up.

Just a few panels from Restoration Design and that car will race again!!

Keep your eye on the guy in blue checkered shirt (w/camera) on the corner. When the 914 comes into sight the shirt is right on the edge of track, which is the very line the driver has for his corner. Shirt does not flinch or move back as he is focused on his lens. Driver has to make an unintended reflex move to avoid clipping the shirt, which sets him up for the subsequent lose of control. Maybe... or maybe not ! Looks likely though...

As Racer has pointed out and many of you already know, this topic has been discussed at the link he provided, above.

Looking at the video again I also believe that it's very likely that the accident was primarily caused by his apparent attempt to steer away from the guy in the blue shirt taking pictures at the edge of the road. Once he made that steer away at that speed he was in trouble, agreed?

So what would he have needed to do to regain control after his (faulty?) counter steer to the original "mistake"?

Agree with drifter9014

Texting?

Looks like he was out of control before he even got to the guy with the shirt. It all happens in the first 0:01 of the video. If he doesn't make the adjustment, at a minimum his front right tire goes off the pavement prior to the camera/pic guy in blue shirt. Therefore, I would conclude that the guy taking the pic (although risking his life IMHO) had nothing to do with it.

Fractional error. He was at 11/10's and had only 10/10's talent.

The photog is a convenient scapegoat but in reality he screwed himself regardless. That car should NOT have been allowed to race with that shit-box cage. Luckily for him, he crashed very early in the run...

PS: I did not see the link but I believe it is the fool who kicked the teener. If so, he is an idiot driving above his limits as Rob stated. BTW: He lifted and paid the price...

T

Agree with Boxterfan. Without correction he was going in the ditch. Unfortunately that led to hitting the rock. Damn lucky to walk away from that.

From the video perspective, he was already in trouble.. a little "early" to apex? While I can't hear the audio (If any?) he no doubt both swerved a little left and lifted off the gas to avoid the camera man that suddenly appeared in his line of sight, which upset the cars balance and the previous "drift" he was no doubt in when a line correction was needed. Its all about balance and managing the weight of the car on those 4 little contact patches.

It was likely compounded by the fact that while turning, the pavement appears to come "down hill" towards the guy with the camera. So, we already have a weight transition in the car from back to front, loading the front of the car which then magnifies the steering correction due to the sudden increased grip.

I think the dude with the camera sold his line.
He may still have run out of track on to the left, but I doubt it.

I don't see how it's evident that the cage was significantly inferior.

I agree with all those that said he had already lost control before getting to the guy with the camera and was 11/10's.

He just didn't get the opposite steering going quick enough.
He had plenty of room to the outside of the turn as he only drifted/skidded to the middle lane markers.

If you've ever seen that Fascination video of the yellow Ruf on the Nurburgring, you'll see that in the right hands this type of slide is easily controlled/corrected for.
All it takes is experience.

A lot of the Pikes Peak hillclimb drivers are not so high on experience.

That was a few years ago. Look that boy is lucky to be alive. The right door and right front absorb the impact and the bad cage may of saved him.

Those big boulders where in the wrong spot for him on that day.

Bob B

I'm not expert like many others here. The only thing I can say about this crash is this video has been on the here in the past. I also know that the spectators were idiots for walking on to the track.

Where do I start? Look at the basic observations...
By comparison sake - I have also attached a picture of a Boxster Spec racer at this Springs PCA Club Race at Road Atlanta. This car is stupid slow and yet super safe (and not potentially flying off cliffs into bolders!) - see the deficiencies now?

Tony



Under-Kill
Click to view attachment

Over-Kill
Click to view attachment

Same boulders...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXzWPDfGrYU

I saw it that way too. He's on the knife edge and when he lines up visually on the dude he lets out and loses it.

Who is to say that if he doesn't come off his line if he clips the guy or not, but either way, its an interesting video.

Does anyone know this guy to ask?

If you play in slo-mo:

1] at 2 second mark you can see the driver's side of suspension is really loaded and passenger side is way to high.....as if there's no sway bars?

2] Easy to see cage is NOT tied to rear tub/suspension

3] Easy to see big counter steering effort [which means he probably "lifted" off the throttle]

He's practically on the shoulder coming in. I still think if he doesn't flinch, he makes it. Still a lot of meat of the road.

As far as the crapiness of the cage, I appreciate the expert advice and completely agree with a 2017 brain trust. Likely the cage was pre-2000 by a hobbist, so results may vary. I've seen way crappier. The guy is lucky how it all played out.

You didn't say if you raced or had racecar experience or building them,.....answer soon.

Wow. Thanks for the reply and lesson. Nice job.

I haven't raced yet, so no experience, nor with cages at all.

This is one of the answers I was looking for. Thanks. I will look for that video mentioned. Now I have another question. I can't find this expression anywhere...11/10s and I don't get it. I did however, while looking for it, find this, which has a number of interesting and funny quotes about racing.

http://justacarguy.blogspot.de/2010/08/bes...-about-car.html

Holy crap! Major oversteer!

10/10s you are driving flat out with zero margin for errors.
11/10s either you need to be very skilled and experienced or damn lucky

Maybe it's the hour. Or my brain's way of dealing with the insane danger here. Or maybe its the body language of the spectators silhouetted by the flames. But I am not sure a crash video has ever made me laugh harder.



Can people run any faster? Pretty sure Carl Lewis would've been left behind. Those silhouettes hauled a** outta there. Pretty impressive, actually. And of course I am glad no one appeared to get hurt. Pikes Peak is super cool. Also, insanely dangerous.

To the OP's question: I think it's too hard to tell, whether the car was already in trouble or the idiotic "photographer" caused a bobble of steering or a lift, without seeing some in-car footage or at least some foot from another angle.

Looking at those boulders, not sure whether going off the side is worse. Suppose it depends where that happens...

Not so bad:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6s1nmJDe4Y

Bad. Very bad:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIFjGF5FLmo

On the other hand...still mesmerizing. For anyone who has driven a GT3 Cup or RSR, or just watched the ALMS races, hearing that gearbox on dirt...aww man it's good. The whole world changes at 2:15.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSP-_XFnkV8

Ouch! Thanks.

It's pretty hard/ expensive to get significant seat time in a car, for pikes peak, you get what, a 1/2 hour a year? so you better be actively seaking other venues/ race series etc that you can build up some time.

you essentially buy your way into Pikes Peak, i know you have to do a rookie school where you have a few short practices, and get a chalk talk, but thats a pretty technical challenge if you don't have a couple of hundred hours of racing seat time on road courses.

I don't know the driver at all, but I can tell you a good carpenter never blames his tools.

He obviously did enough to get the car through Pikes Peak safety inspection, but I have no idea how rigorous that is.

If your reading between the lines, my completely uninformed opinion, guy was in it way over his head, and I question if he had the experience he needed to actually be up to the task.

I've seen a whole lot of guys with more money than skill in several different race series, and a whole lot of em tend to crash out because they didnt realize money didn't buy them skill or knowledge!

I would give him a 7.5 out of 10! I might have given him a 8 but he kicked the car like it was at fault!

I have seen this video before and deleive the driver was caught off gard by the spectator. He may also have been on the verg of loosing control. Combined ....... Crash. Mike Kelly

the cage in that photo may look questionable, but not every deficiency pointed out may be legal. For instance, attaching the cage to the Apillar is not legal in some classes for sanctioned racing. In some sanctioning organizations, stock classes allow only a 6pt cage....main hoop, front down tube, and rear supports.

In fact, PCA allows bolt-in cages for their stock classes; kinda surprising to me, but I guess they are considered safe enough for racing.

As for the cause of the crash, it looks like he was off line and in trouble before ever entering the corner. Just my limited viewpoint

He already made a correction before the blue shirt as his line was wrong - he was heading to drop a wheel off where the blue shirt guy is.

Distractions, you want distractions?

Click to view attachment


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INwqyPct8qY

Not that we are seeing this differently but that is not my point. I would be utterly baffled if "Pikes Peak" wouldn't allow for a more substantial cage. I could care less if a "historic" racing class doesn't allow for it...this car was running an event with potentially crazy drops and boulders. You build a car to the event - not settle for what loose rules allow. It all equates to poor judgement - from both sides of the event. Just my opinion...

T

yea for sure, definitely want the cage as safe as possible within the limits of what is allowed by the rules organization; the way the passenger side A pillar is buckled is pretty scary. I have no idea what the rules are for the hillclimb, and I bet that car is NOT in a stock class.
I wonder if a 6 point bolt in cage would do the same?

I raced BMWCCA; in stock class the cage is pretty limited; in mod class it can be tied to the chassis and every suspension pickup point if desired.

watching the video closely, one can see the rear end is loose before he even gets to the spectators

Maybe Brant could help clarify but I have never seen a 914 in a "stock" class with a 3 foot high wing mounted beyond the rear bumper.

T

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt T.C. He might be a member here. This was all driver error. Evidenced by what he kicked. That photographer some of you are blaming is within a few feet. If it was my car and a photographer just caused its destruction, I may not kick the photographer (well, ok, probably would) but I don't kick the car.
Some of the hardest corners near the limit which he is just ever so slightly beyond through most of the video, are decreasing and increasing radius turns. When you're at the limit of your lateral acceleration, you can't change direction, even slightly without inviting the devil to lunch. All hell will break loose and it did.
As for the cage? Dude hit a rock at XX MPH and got out. If I were him, I'd be singing the praises of my safety equipment for the rest of what's left of my life.

LOL



I'd have so much adrenaline going I'd be shaking like a leaf

Yes, but we don't know when the driver saw the photographer—or if that's when things went awry. We need another 1-4 seconds of footage on the front end of this to have a better idea of what happened from our armchairs...

He may have got back into his steering line a bit too steep after flinching to avoid the photographer.

That crash likely would have been survivable even without a cage.

The car , in effect, did a right side IIHS "small overlap " ( RE near side swipe ) crash test where there isn't much structure to absorb impact. Remember, any metal that folds outside the passenger compartment is desirable when riding down a crash. Had this taken a hit on the left, the cage would have helped the situation by keeping that side of the passenger compartment intact.

One of the faults I see with the cage install is not adequately tying the main roll bar into the rear window structure ( Upper seat belt mounting point is an easy attaching point ). This allowed the right side of the main hoop to push rearward. Rear facing tubes to the rear shock towers would be the standard way to make a roll cage and much better.

Also, the RF wheel well / rocker / floor crumpled and folded the RF down tube rearward. When caging unit body cars for circle track applications, laying 2" x 3" square tube just inboard of the rockers ( 2" facing up ) then welding the cage to that is standard procedure. If the down legs of a roll cage are not tied together left / right and front rear, they will fold as the floor crumples.

Given the 914 front wheel wells intrude into the foot box, I'd be putting some structure there to protect the drivers feet.

Lastly, this crash was more of a grinding scrape than a solid impact, if the car was a foot more to the right, it would have been much worse.

The cage worked....he walked...I can't imagine an advantage of having it tied to the suspension , from a safety factor...I remember at about 2:30 in the morning during the 24 , a Porsche courage from France went completely airborne and multi.. rolls ....parts ended up in the grandstands....all that was left was a breakway driver safety cell of sorts...nothing else of any substance attached to it....driver walked , albeit wobbly

The cage did nothing to protect the drivers side passenger compartment because the impact was not on that side. If there was someone on the passenger side, would they have walked away?

There are some unknowns, but based on the pics, it looks like they took "roll cage" literally and neglected side / frontal impact protection.

On the passenger side, if the shoulder belts were attached to the cage, the belts would have crushed the passenger against the seat as the cage moved rearward relative to the stock floor. The lap belts were likely attached to stock locations, if the right rocker moved rearward relative to the floor the lap belt would have tightened as well

When caging a car for something like this, it is critical for the passenger compartment to be a tube chassis built inside a stock bodied car. This includes belt and seat mountings being part of the cage not on the stock floor.

As for attaching to suspension points in a unit body car, this is a stronger part of the car than a floor or rocker.

have to disagree on that one ...cars have to fit class rules cages are usually specified as to mounting points..often to suspension is not allowed...you could be right about a hypothetical passenger...but you could be wrong also...only a guess after all...In many classes cages provide rollover protection only unit body crush zones provide the rest, especially front to back....hence roll cage .

Pete, that corner is literally a few hundred yards after the start. So, there can only be a few seconds more footage.

He hits two boulders. First he scraps one along the side then head on into one in front. The one is just a few feet from the other so the impact is almost simultaneous.

It still looks like the crash is inevitable as the video starts, so being able to see more before that would help determine where the loss of control started, and in-cockpit footage might tell us exactly how it started.

It sure appears as if the driver got over his head. That can certainly happen in a few hundred yards--remember, I have actually crossed the start line of an autoX backwards... I'm not sure this guy is much better than I am, which is not a compliment.

Some people build cages so they are legal and pass inspection. In many cases, roll cages can be a whole lot safer and better than the minimum required. Since I don't know the safety rules for Pikes Peak (nor do I even know what year this incident happened; rules do change over time!) it is very possible that this falls into the gap between "legal" and "excellent".

BTW, the whole "11/10ths" metaphor is referring to the limits of the car. Typically you approach the limits gradually, especially on a race track where you get quite a few laps. Driving at 10/10ths means you are at the very limit. Pushing harder than that, overdriving the car, is usually counterproductive (you lose time fighting the car for traction) and makes it a whole lot easier to completely lose control and encounter various parts of the scenery. When those parts are solid, you get incidents like this. So driving 11/10ths is slower at best, and dangerous at worst.

... Overdriving the car is one of the things I have to fight when I autoX my car....

--DD