Seems like this would be the best hope of replicating the nuance of my L13M Saturn yellow that was badly missed with its previous paint job. But, I can’t seem to find anyone who can source it or much less has experience with it.

Anyone out there in 914 World have experience, advice, or sourcing tips they care to pass along?

Here’s a link for folks that are curious:

https://refinish.basf.us/products/22-line-s...2-8-lbsgal-voc/
https://refinish.basf.us/products/22-line-s...3-5-lbsgal-voc/

Maybe Paintscratch.com?
I think there was a thread a few weeks ago about PPG's paint match program.

I’m looking for enough to do a repaint… trying to assess feasibility while I have an opportunity with the car torn apart.

i take it you are only going so far as prep but not spraying it yourself.

you will be looking for a resto shop to paint it if things in USA are anything like here.

they are up for doing old school single stage paints.

mike does it here in our workshop but only for smaller area repairs on the owners collection. the couple of full resprays that have been done were sent out for the painting to an old guy (like older than me and he should be retired but he still works). he has a paint booth. he is set up with a J car restorer. these days he just does the final paint, other younger guys do the prep for him.

most painters now connected to panel shops only want to deal in base/clear.
bit of a problem.

environmental issues are part of the pressure.

good luck. bound to be someone nearby to you but you might have to search to find them.

All I do is search for things these days lol…. I really took Houston for granted I’ve come to realize. Everything was there, and I never took advantage.

Moaning aside, I might spray myself depending on how able I would be to source the paint system. That copper manifold I built is drying air like a champ. And I could build a murder room in the garage.

But if I can’t get the stuff or its a nightmare to work with, there’s little point. Honestly though, I don’t see how that would be possible. Single stage is a cake walk to paint as long as you know the reducers to use for your climate.

Is the question about single stage Urethane or more about that brand specifically?

Depending on how long since the car was originally painted you’re going to find differences in both color (due to sun fade) and EPA mandated low VOC reformulation. I’ve run into both on my 914 project and on other projects as well.

On the whole, Urethane is no big deal to work with other than the need to be way more careful about PPE.

Other than that, it comes down to finding a distributor and following the tech sheet for mixing, underlying paint compatibility, etc.

BASF is major player in paint business - should be able to find someone supporting it.

Note: I’m trying to navigate their site and can’t seem to find the tech sheets other than SDS material safety so less than impressive on that account

Overall - I wouldn’t mess with it unless you spray the whole car. Blending - color matching a spot repair against aged paint is a black art. Once you are in for a whole car respray - honestly I would move to PPG for ease of acquisition, ease of finding tech sheets, ease of support.

I ordered a can of Zambezi Green from https://www.automotivetouchup.com/ and it was spot on. I used it in the engine compartment when I replaced the battery tray and engine seal holder. Both the color and clear coat laid down smooth. You can get it in a paint pen all the way up to a ready to spray gallon.

i think @Superhawk996 is right. if you know what you are doing urethane based paint is fine. i don't paint. but i get it all ready for mike to do. he paints when he has to at the end of the day and we clear the hell out. everything gets covered in plastic sheets. he gets all rigged up with resirators etc. we don't have a paint booth or room. we have thought about knocking one up. but mostly its individual panels get painted in the back corner so its not really worth the trouble yet.

i got a feeling the falcon ute might have been done with urethane. i can ask.
two coats with about 20 minutes between.

its only a misery if it starts going wrong for some reason on the first coat. contaminants or something affecting the paint. humidity whatever. even temp can mess you up down here if it gets too hot or too cold on the day when its planned to happen.

its toxic as hell which is why i think a lot of professional painters are not excited about doing it anymore. but the exposure from one job with the right gear on to protect isn't going to worry you. its the guys who have to do it day in and day out that really want to avoid it these days.

@Superhawk996 @wonkipop that brand specifically is really what I was after. But it does help confirming that the VOC regs do effect color presentation. The paint on my car was definitely a poor backyard spray job in a Georgia summer... Awful. And now that I've found some spots of adhesion failure in addition to the Bondo job on the rear bumper, this seems like the best opportunity I will have.

I bought the best full face respirator that 3M has (FF-800 series) and their VOC specific filters since I already planned on doing a full underbody treatment with the Dynatron stuff.

But back to the original question, I was hoping someone could tell me how well the 22 line matches up with OE color specs and where they bought from. As none of the local dealers from the BASF website actually carry the product.

an aside on base/clear coat cars with some of the work i have been picking away at over the last 2/3 years is that it seems to allow a lot more spider rust to start up under it.

i've been doing a bit of rust delay semi temporary work on the workshop owners 84 t-bird. its a heap of sh$t but still kind of interesting and charming in its own way.
still lhd. he picked it up for peanuts. kind of a turd gold colour and clear coat original paint. been working all around the back window and had the trunk lid off. back to bare metal on the trunk lid. where the pinstripe decals ran across the lid and where the badges were double sided taped on some pretty good spider rust was really beginning to take hold. as well as from the usual odd chip from stone damage etc. we reckon the decals and the badges were trapping moisture or preventing the paint from breathing some how. quite noticeable. i should have taken some pictures.

i noticed the same thing on the front hood of the my citroen xm. its a 99. clear coat paint.
resprayed the hood because the original clear coat was failing. took it back to bare metal. lots and lots of spider rust forming from stone chips. some were starting to take hold.

the falcon ute really had none of that. a hell of a lot less spider rust under its original factory paint. plain white, commercial vehicle paint job -pre clear coat days. even though its a 94 model.

just an interesting thing i have noticed. two stage modern paint is not i think anything like as durable or strong as the older stuff.

i'll ask mike for you. i am at the workshop tomorrow to try and put the renault back together. all the timing belt parts should be there -- "hopefully". the old bloke dennis who does the full spray jobs has done lots of work on 911 restos over the last 20 - 30 years. for pretty fussy farkers. he is probably going to know what the best match for original factory paint is. i wouldn't mind betting it is glasurit.

you could try an email to porsche germany. they have a resto shop. ask them what paint they use. they will probably reply. whatever it is its bound to be "eco" given the way germany is these days on all that stuff. but maybe they have a skunk works with locked doors to keep the enviro inspectors out.

Full face is great but be aware that isocyanate in urethane has no smell so you can’t tell when VOC filters have saturated with isocyanate. Best plan of action is brand new filters every time you spray urethane. Some of the new urethane claims to be isocyanate free or reduced. See tech sheets to know for sure.

I eventually went forced air full hood but that was because what originally was a “let’s try this stuff” turned into using for pretty much every paint job I’ve done lately. Urethane flows out wonderfully and has a really nice gloss even without clear coat.

Comparison between two brands PPG (on left) vs Sikkens (remnant from original paint on right) and pre EPA (Sikkens) vs reformulation of VOC and pigments (the PPG)

Both are supposed to be same color code BMW #138 - model year 1991

I had better luck having PPG do a color match to a painted / faded headlamp cover which actually came back as Honda R90 (a motorcycle color I think). I had the R90 mixed and I think it actually was a better match when sprayed.

Just be aware that no matter what you have mixed it probably won’t match 100%.Click to view attachment

I don't know where to start. in it's Maryland stores BASF won't stock 22 line because of VOC levels. You'd probably have to get it from out of state. Tints go bad sitting on the shelf, so since not many shops paint everyday with SS, it doesn't move. Not many jobbers keep it on the shelf. Not to mention driving out of state to get it.

What are you trying to match? is it the right color? Rust spider webbing under something is bad primer. color doesn't keep rust away.

Find a color you like. Find a painter. Have him recommend what paint he wants to use.

Not trying to make anyone mad, just saving you time and money.

Kevin

interesting about the primer for spider web.
ford t-bird is ungalv. like the ford falcon.
ford australia must have had a much better factory primer and application quality than ford USA.
both were areas of factory paint taken off.
i was really surprised by the t bird. we look at the rest of it now with "x-ray" vision and we are not seeing a pretty picture.

PA will sell the good stuff right? I looked up state VOC laws and PA is on the bad boy list with the anti-cow fart crowd. I’d be willing to make the drive if there is a place that will sell it.

I think you'll have better luck approximating your original color by finding some part of the car that hasn't been resprayed. Like inside a headlight cover, bottom of the hood or rear lid. Clean it, polish it and bring it to a paint store for a match. Not computer match but, by eye. Finding someone to do this can be a job in itself.
If you can find a local to you Glasurit supplier and they have or can get the current formula then get them to mix you a pint or 1/2 pt to make sure you like it. Yellows and red toners are some of the most expensive. Start puckering now!
The toners Glasurit had in the 70s have been regulated out of use several times over by now which is why I think you should have some mixed to look at the current color formulation.
I'm not at all surprised by the two very different reds for the same code. I think that 138 is called Cinnabar red. I remember it being very translucent and hard to match. Looks great though.....

@Superhawk996 . I realized just how far off the current paint job is when I was removing all the 50yr old ziebart. The paint underneath was like new and such a cool color. That slight green tint makes a world of difference.

Closest city on MD?

I’m south of DC in Waldorf, MD. But I’m stationed out of Andrews AFB. I did a day trip up to PA last year when I bought a new mower. It was a full day, but a beautiful drive.

Kevin. Where are you in Pittsburgh. I’m in south hills.

I am in the process of a rolling restoration on a 70 Light Ivory car and could use all the good advice I can find when it comes to paint. PM me if you would like to chat.

Good memory. To make matters worse sometimes called Zinnoberrot in certain paint books. And yes, hard to match good fun trying to find a match at $400/quart.

Ain’t paint a riot?

i think i can see what you mean about the correct color hue and why you are going after it with some rigour.

if TJB/914's car is correct in this thread below. nice.
very changeable depending on light?

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...l=saturn+yellow

would make sense.
an old mate of mine had a 73 in what is called delphi green metallic in the states.
but the same color is called saturn yellow metallic in the rest of the world.
that was one beautiful enigmatic color.
sometimes it looked green.
at other times golden yellow.
just depended on the time of the day, angle of sun etc etc.

given the name = saturn yellow, surely it is meant to be similarly enigmatic even though not metallic?

i go after color a bit hard in my architecture.
i have been known to upset painters - until they get to the end of the job.
i use a 1930s color book and i get the colors custom mixed.
everyone else asks me where i get my colors from.
i stay schtum.
i got this color into my house 20 odd years ago.
its called chartreuse in my kept hidden book which actually only has about 30 colors.
the world was a lot simpler then, but the colors were fantastic.

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depending on the light you could never really say it was green or yellow.

i used to look at ravenna green and think that was porsche or VW going after chartreuse, but now that you have alerted me to your discovery of a green tone, i think it might be saturn yellow.

all i can say is stay on the case. see if you can reconstruct it.
it will be worth it.

Yeah L13M. The eye notices green better than any other color. Since it is right in the middle of our visual spectrum we can actually see more shades of green. You can't fly in the AF unless you can see all the greens lol.

So, what I like about the authentic Saturn yellow is that under a UV biased light, the yellow washes out and the green comes through. But under a more infrared bias, the yellow becomes golden. That's exactly what's happening in your pics.

i rang max who owns the workshop and he reckons that dennis will call him back tonight.
fully briefed now on degree of difficulty. paint name and color code passed on.
spectral borderline flip flop general theme fully processed and understood by max.
he got it. exactly what the issue is. also information that its a VW color code.

lets see what old dennis has to say.

word back from d is one word.

glasurit.

all the mercs, porsches he has done for the last 40 years.

there is a bit more to it and i will send you a PM.

but he was firm in his view they get the color right.
often he has had to paint cars that no longer have any trace of original colour left or its real hard to find. they go straight off the formula. he believes despite all the dramas with VOC etc they have maintained the colors. i got a little talking to about cadmium and what a fabulous ingredient in terms of late 60s and 70s oranges reds and yellow colours. and of course its a verbotten ingredient.


slightly off topic but close.
this is what the old falcon ute got.
wouldn't mind hearing @Superhawk996 views.
(its a perfect match, as it turned out, it was adjusted slightly, we took a door down and had it matched, compensated for fade etc). not over the top paint given the ute is just a ute. but good enough not to make for a rubbish job.

i've got to say i love block sanding this primer.
i only do prep.
had nothing to do with the 30 minutes of glory at the end.

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i read a thread a while back and i think @Superhawk996 expressed severe doubt about this product. oh well. the falcon is doomed.

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No doubts about the product(s). BASF has been around paint a long time. I think it’s mainly going to be a challenge finding it since PPG dominates here in the states.

I’m an amateur (hack ) so I’ll gladly defer to a real painter and someone that has used Glasurit. As far as reformulation goes it’s real but it seems to me that colors ought to be able to be duplicated within reason. I think the main fight is dealing with match and blending to compensate for sun fade. My experience with the BMW #138 was interesting just as a data point about the color variances between brand and reformulation though I have no idea which has more influence.

As far as the guide powder - no doubts that it works I just think it is hilarious that the main ingredient was iron oxide (i.e. rust). I trust the suppliers have it in an inert form that won’t harm paint when molecules get trapped between primer and top coat.

Funny side note from my years working for Auto OEMs. The design studio has folks who’s sole job is mastering colors so that paint, interior trim, etc. matches when painted or manufactured at seperate suppliers. Imagine how hard that can be to have door trim come from a separate supplier than the instrument panel. The customer could care less where they come from but certainly expects the color to match.

At one OEM we had a vehicle with stripes that ran whole length of the car. Front fascia painted at different supplier than front hood. Initially the stripes didn’t line up between the fascia and the hood due to variances in fit of the parts but also from variance in the width of the stripes Doh!

@wonkipop
Don’t sell yourself short, the prep is the paint. You can be the best paint shooter but put it over bad prep and all you have is shiny

At the same time, the prep can be perfect, but if the color guy is not on we have a similar result.

Thanks @wonkipop . I agree with the tribe that matching is best to avoid if possible. Which is why i wanted to see some assurance that Glasurit could give me a color that I would've seen had I been at the dealership in 1974.

Now to source it....

yes, its a good idea for both aspects to be top notch.

the nice thing about prep is you can fix your screw ups along the way.
the guts and glory bit at the end is do or die.
i'd want to practice on a lot of letterboxes before i pointed a paint gun at a car.

i asked mike about that.
he said its already oxidised.
therefor inert.
if had pure iron (ferrous) powder then it would rust.

however his eyebrows did go up and he added, i hope its all fully oxidised.

@wonkipop
Start racing bikes - you’ll get lots of practice shooting paint.

i think i would end up in a lot of trouble if i got on a bike now at my age.
could end in tears.

restrict myself to my old uncle's farm and his kawasaki ag-bike.
he is one of the few guys who still rounds up his cattle on a two wheeler.
a lot of other farmers seem to use death trap quad bikes.
its a lot of fun opening up an ag bike in a big paddock.
lots of grass and no bitumen.

@Superhawk996 is telling the truth! The last paint job I did was definitely my best (cir 2011)

geez the old 1.8 L jet must be a bit of a let down after that baby.

@wonkipop

All “normal” cars are a let down after you get used to the acceleration of a sport bike. At this stage it pretty much takes something like a Tesla Running Ludicrous or Plaid mode to impress me for off the line acceleration. And I don’t even like EVs but you can’t beat max torque at zero RPM and AWD to ground the power.


Man - this thread was about paint - how did I get to an EV rant?

the question for me is how am I able to be so successful in avoiding EV rants lol...

Seriously though, I'm on the struggle bus trying to find a 22 line paint supplier. So far all the places I've looked up on the BASF website are either Glasurit in name only, only base/clear, or closed altogether.

I did some Google on your behalf and have a bad feeling you’re going to run into same problem I had when trying to find Sikkens - yeah it’s still around but such a minor player and when I finally found a distributor, the old product line I wanted wasn’t available any longer.

Might try calling Capital Paint and Refinish in Denver - but even that article is 7 years old

Click to view attachment

Other than that all I’m finding is dated European / Canadian / ROW distribution

Have Wonkipop send you some . Paint can be shipped internationally but will likely be a huge cost due to hazardous materials surcharge, customs & duty, and weight. I’ve had small quantity of paint shipped domestically and it was no big deal.

Paint is far far outside my knowledge base but I think @Superhawk996 is correct the only way to get this is from overseas. I tried a search for it in Canada but as expected, nothing.

I did find this in Germany, home of BASF... and it lists prices in Euros.

https://autolackpartner.de/en/42-glasurit-reihe-22

Doesn't look like they ship outside Europe (when pretending to buy on their website). However, maybe a call or email could answer that? Regardless, it will be expensive.

There is a WESCO paint store in Mesa Az that I've spoken to about 55line. They say that they can mix Glasurit now. 480-833-6093. I'd still be nervous about trusting their formula without looking at it to make certain that you like it. $2500 worth of paint 2000 miles away from the place that has toners to adjust the color......
Maybe try calling some german car bodyshops and ask if they know a jobber or other shop that sprays Glasurit.

essentially that was what was in the PM.
Glasurit Aus don't sell the good stuff here either.

but it is obtainable.

@vitamin914 - you can get the stuff you linked to in Germany also in the UK.

correct re hazardous materials.
i'm not even sure you can put it on a plane from AUS to US.
i know i could not airfreight certain solvent based paints i was after for my work from NZ.
had to be water based.

mexico?

this topic did get me interested to know once and for all who did supply the paint to VW in Germany. it was BASF (glasurit).

original colour charts are spot on.
saturn yellow in all its correct glory. (from ratwell who photographed a glasurit chart book).

Click to view attachment

no matter what i would be getting the paint from Glasurit.
whatever the final outcome in terms of whether you can obtain 22 Line in USA,
they are going to be the supplier who can either still reproduce the original colour despite the chemical contortions to conform with eco laws or get the closest of anyone.

22 line did not arrive until 1995.
they did change the formulation from what they were using in the 70s and then the 80s.
but it was adjustments to lower the solvent content in the paint.
but the basic chemistry did not move too far.

EDIT
i am reaching far back into my memory now to the mid 80s when i was my mid 20s.
one of my bosses got a battered 911 he picked up from a sheep station in NSW.
it was repainted in glasurit. that awful mustard yellow brown color that was original.
there was some problem with the paint at that time being susceptible to chipping.
it was widespread as a problem. this may have been BASF coming to terms with the first regulation wave to lower solvent content. i think they solved the problem after that because that was the one and only time i remember some issues in relation to what was even then the most expensive paint around down here.

BTW, I worked for BASF 1986-99. Got the original Zambezi Green formulas from AG dept in both VW and Porsche versions. Rather different formula for each. Provided them to Jejj B; believe they are posted on his web site.

here is a thread i found on samba along the way.
guy with a sport beetle.
restored and repainted.
looks like he got close. very green in photos but possibly due to artificial inside light.
outside in sun shots looks right.

but he has done it with base and clear.
he used sikkens. would probably be same problem superhawk996 was talking about.
you have trouble even getting sikkens now in USA.

also this was 10 years ago.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic...sc&start=60

interesting about two different formulas.

i see the reason for that after a quick search.
only on 914s in the 70s.
comes back on 1980 911 SC. probably an entirely different type of paint being used?
but they have maintained the color/shade precisely despite the different chemistry?
apparently it remains a special choice color you can still get, or could still get until recently on your porsche. believe its called forest green on later 911s which was the name given to it on ROW 914s.

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gives you faith that glasurit can reproduce saturn yellow even if the paint chemistry has entirely altered since 1974.

i was just wandering around down here with my old showroom colors brochure.
i had no idea how accurate it was (still is). its been kept out of the sunlight for 50 years.

damn near a perfect match for the unfaded relatively un-aged inners on my car.
the germans were good.

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and much to my surprise the little sample of saturn yellow was doing its trick of changing color as i moved from the south light in the garage (which is like USA north light) and out into direct sunlight. greenish in garage, but went yellow out in the sun.

wild color.

Too funny to see all of you confirming all my research that led to me posting this thread! I feel validated right now lol… except for Steve not calling up his old BASF buddies to hook me up. Hell that young intern he probably knew at one point is running the North American division by now I bet!

come in @StarBear . calling starbear.

must be a live contact steve has somewhere. its only a quarter of a century ago.