You know what pisses me off more than anything?
I keep coming back to Britt's threads. It's like I can't believe I get sucked into the madness.

I guess that makes me

what typically goes wrong with carbs?

I'm real intrested in a dual carb setup, and I figure that gas prices, when added up over X amount of time, still don't equal the price of a quality engine rebuild...so it's not worth getting 30MPG in trade for destroying my engine.

Granted I am running a 1.7 and I was strongly urged to go with a dual carb setup when I rebuild my 2.0...so I believe that the single carb, while not optimal by any means, won't contribute to my engine's demise.

I want to publically thank Ron for shipping me this engine...thanks ron your a lifesaver!

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 24 2005, 10:56 PM)

what typically goes wrong with carbs?

nothing.

guys on the 356 list light up their 50-year-old 1,5-1,7 liter engines with 50 year old Solexes and drive every day.

EVENTUALLY the throttle shaft bores wear and leak air. the butterflies sometimes wear. (these are 30-50 year items...)

the gaskets dry out, the float bowls get enough little bits of crud (they are vented to atmosphere...) idle jets plug. accel pump diaphragms split.

so every 10 years or so you take them apart, clean everything, replace the gaskets and such and you're back in service.

how long do the FI guys go without having to clean injectors. same thing...

QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Aug 24 2005, 07:38 PM)

until the weather changes :-)

or you decide to attend a 2 day event in reno ...


britt, don't listen to trek, he's never had any type of testing equipment hooked up to his motor to even know *how* his engine is running.
much less a dyno run ...

either way, if you want your engine to run right, you *WILL* spend time tuning your engine, Carbs or FI ...

for me, using the laptop is easier than fiddeling with with a whole box of jets and tubes and stuff ...

it all comes down to personal preference ...
Andy

QUOTE

don't listen to trek

Good advice...

KT

( no blue smoke-no black smoke...I'm good to go, Bro )

i'm a computer guy, but the only fuel injection i've ever had was d-jet and it was a nightmare.....

i had do re-do SO many connectors.....and it still sucked.

i have no idea how hard/easy it is for aftermarket FI, but I know if I can set up a windows 2000 domain server and a linux server and learn php, i can tune a car with a laptop.

but the carbs were good, no problem there yet.

Due to a Strike At Weber In Brazil, Weber Kits Have been Increased.


Dual "EMPI" 44MM IDF Carb Kit.............. Price $749.95
http://www.strictlyforeign.com/

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/det...l.php?id=183123

new, made in china

wow, so this is it huh?

i have a nice warm feeling now, and I like the way those carbs look....

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 24 2005, 08:22 PM)

i have no idea how hard/easy it is for aftermarket FI, but I know if I can set up a windows 2000 domain server and a linux server and learn php, i can tune a car with a laptop.

You can download and run the software for free for most of them, the manuals are also availabe to download for free. Everything is a google search away.

Your best bet is read the Megasquirt manual, knowing how to solder is not the key element here...READING the entire manual is key, it'll step you thru building and tuning. It breaks everything down to the simplest terms, no real prior experiance needed. An WBO2 is useful and will pay for itself very quickly...the LC-1 is only $200 and it'll work with almost all EFI's and you can use your laptop to datalog and get all kinds of cool information about your motor. You do not need to keep a laptop in the car, once tuned, you shouldn't have to tweak it unless you do something major like add a turbocharger.

Even my EFI, the Link has the software available to download for free as well as the wiring manual and tuning manual

(windows based for most of them, some still use DOS..actually one of the most expensive and best EFI use DOS based programming)

QUOTE

i have a nice warm feeling now, and I like the way those carbs look....

individual fuel injection throttle bodies look better

FI not reliable? gee my 116,000 mile 1.8 with L-jet gets 30 mpg on our last road trip on local back roads with much speed and elevation changes and alot of shifting.

and the only problem i have had with the FI was when the current D/A owner was fartin around in the engine compartment he knocked loose some "vacuum" hoses that caused a turn over but no start condition that with 5 minutes of newby 914 trouble shooting had it running.
and i'm driving this car just about every day.

don't waste your money on 40 or 44 at this time britt. in my experience 44 will give you pretty poor low end perfomance. when you DO have an engine with the need for dual, duals, get a GOOD linkage. spend the money. for your 1.7 i would just look for a set of single barrel webers. much cheaper. a set of $250 40 are a crap shoot. be prepared to rebuild them.

k

i want to thank everybody for this whatever its called....

on the topic of L-jet, I could buy a L-Jet system from a friend for not that much...it's basically extra stuff from his bus....

could I plug N play into my engine?

yes, rebuild ANY used set of carbs you buy... it's a $30 kit and you will LEARN something by doing it...

yes, you can run carbs on a stock cam engine, but as rich said, it won't buy you hp, you may even lose a little... but the thing will run fine... better than the single carb by a LONG shot...

I disagree with Kev on one thing... if you get the baby 36s a 1.7/1.8 is about tops for those carbs... buy 40s, and you are fine up to 2056, maybe even 2270(pushing it)

44s you are good for about 2.5, 48s, about as big as you can make...

think about the future, and get at least 40s, or 44s... and DEFINATELY get a good linkage!!!

MS may seem like a very attractive price tag... but it's not just a bolt-on and go thing... be prepared to have the car out of commission for a GOOD while...

Ljet would be great too... but you got frustrated with Djet, why do you think Ljet or MS will be different? no FI is really "plug-n-play" M$ boy...

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 25 2005, 07:15 AM)

i want to thank everybody for this whatever its called.... on the topic of L-jet, I could buy a L-Jet system from a friend for not that much...it's basically extra stuff from his bus.... could I plug N play into my engine?

you "should" be able to but I don't buses at all...

the L-jets are pretty robust except for the dual relay can fail (just old age and heat).

The air flow meters can be damaged from a backfire (you don't touch the gas while trying to start car), it does have contacts that can wear out or need cleaning


L-Jets systems "hate" vac leaks. In order to help on mine, I removed the crankcase lines going to the air intake elbow (after the metered air) and made plugs to fill in the 2 holes in the elbow. I had this on a 2.0 and it ran great.

well, i heard they are really flexible with different engine sizes.....

now, were talking only about stock engines...no engines with 3 lobes on a cam or anything cray right...

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 25 2005, 07:34 AM)

well, i heard they are really flexible with different engine sizes..... now, were talking only about stock engines...no engines with 3 lobes on a cam or anything cray right...

my 2.0 was stock except for it having the higher compression flat top euro pistons and a header....

i say stay with the single carb if it's working, and slowly get all the parts needed for a megasquirt...there are enough of them running right now that you could get a base map and have it running in day.......

the only reason i suggested singles was, i never know what path britt plans on taking. . singles can be had cheap, and they're easy to dial in. throwing the duals on the engine he has, esp 44s, will produce a million threads about low end bogging and what jetting combo he needs. wait until folks tell him to change emmulsion tubes and air correction, let alone float heights. a set of $500 carbs, which when the dust settles, he will have into the works, sitting in a box, is a waste of money. he needs an engine that REQUIRES that size of carburation. just mvho.

k

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Aug 25 2005, 09:41 AM)

the only reason i suggested singles was, i never know what path britt plans on taking. . singles can be had cheap, and they're easy to dial in. throwing the duals on the engine he has, esp 44s, will produce a million threads about low end bogging and what jetting combo he needs. wait until folks tell him to change emmulsion tubes and air correction, let alone float heights. a set of $500 carbs, which when the dust settles, he will have into the works, sitting in a box, is a waste of money. he needs an engine that REQUIRES that size of carburation. just mvho. k

I see your point... I hadn't thought about all the threads of course if it's not carbs, it will be something else

they all ask a question, right?

i have a single carb now...runs great.


carbs seem easier to work on.....

FI seems to be more precise with regard to fuel atomization...which has been proven.

if base maps are available, then going FI would not be a bad idea....

dunno how to tune Megasquirt, but there are assumably alot of information about it online.

i know that 44s would not be a good choice for my 1.7....

this single works, i'm talking about the next engine....

QUOTE (Mueller @ Aug 25 2005, 08:27 AM)

the L-jets are pretty robust except for the dual relay can fail (just old age and heat). The air flow meters can be damaged from a backfire (you don't touch the gas while trying to start car), it does have contacts that can wear out or need cleaning

dual relay can be worked around

the air meter's seem to be widely available....

are they all universal or is it specific like the MPSs?

Just to add more fuel to the fire ---

Britt, I have Weber 44s, hot cam, and flat top pistons in my 2.0L. You're not too far south from me, so I suspect you will have cool/cold mornings in spring and fall where you'll want to drive the car. The Weber 44s do not have a choke, so starting from cold on a cold morning/evening can be a chore. Once you get it to fire, let it idle for a few minutes to get things a little warm. Someone mentioned throttle response -- yes, it is not very good below 3k rpm. It sucks. Don't entertain any ideas about drag racing because from a standing start, it doesn't go very well (but once I get to 3.5krpm watch out because then it takes off. While I would never condone street racing, there may one time have been an MR2 somewhere that may or may not have been pwn3d once...) back on topic --> the carbs are a different beast.

I like mine well enough. My MPG ranges from 20-25 for driving around town and commuting. On track for a DE, significantly less. With fuel prices the way they are now, that kind of stings, but I don't daily drive my 914. It isn't practical for me to use it that way here, and I have never considered it for such. It is for fun, so I deal with it. It is a 32 yr old car that doesn't have all the modern "conveniences", and I don't expect the same reliability out of it that I do my MINI Cooper S. Carbs have their own special gremlins. I recently had a screw come loose on my linkage. Once I figured out the problem, all I needed was an Allen wrench. I don't have to worry about vacuum hoses, but I do have to worry about cloggin jets, mixture settings, etc. Pick yer poison...my car's PO decided to install carbs, so that's what I'm sticking with for now...

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 25 2005, 09:01 AM)

QUOTE (Mueller @ Aug 25 2005, 08:27 AM) the L-jets are pretty robust except for the dual relay can fail (just old age and heat). The air flow meters can be damaged from a backfire (you don't touch the gas while trying to start car), it does have contacts that can wear out or need cleaning dual relay can be worked around the air meter's seem to be widely available.... are they all universal or is it specific like the MPSs?

The dual relay cannot be worked around, due to the way it's designed.

the AFM is calibrated to the engine. If you sub an AFM from a different engine, it will have the incorrect spring tension, so the fuel mixture will be off.


FYI... Most of the rebuilt AFMs out there are setup for a 1800 Type 1 motor. It is NOT the correct calibration for a 1.8L Type IV.

megasquirt!!! oh yes, start immediately!!! or right after you buy the webers or dells, and take them apart. . best to leave some bread crumbs at every fork in the road.

k

okay...

my single carb does have a choke....and it works.

I actually expected worse mpg from the 44s....20-25 is what i was used to getting from my old 2.0 setup....so honestly it wont be that bad.

It is overkill for my 1.7 though.

I need to pay some people back first, then i'll rebuild my 2.0 to like a 2.2 and go with some 44s....

rhodyguy, i don't need bread crumbs....I have AAA.

i'm really getting SICK and tired of letting people show me up in thier ricey crap.....

i want to show somebody the back end of my car for once.

2.2 coming in some distant future to a 914Club member near or not near YOU

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 25 2005, 05:21 PM)

okay... my single carb does have a choke....and it works. I actually expected worse mpg from the 44s....20-25 is what i was used to getting from my old 2.0 setup....so honestly it wont be that bad. It is overkill for my 1.7 though. I need to pay some people back first, then i'll rebuild my 2.0 to like a 2.2 and go with some 44s.... rhodyguy, i don't need bread crumbs....I have AAA.

if you do it, buy Jake's kit... that way we don't have to hear 1000 questions about valvetrain geometry or whatever you decide not to read up about... it will all be slap-in and go for you...

QUOTE (Joe Ricard @ Aug 24 2005, 06:54 PM)

You know what pisses me off more than anything? I keep coming back to Britt's threads. It's like I can't believe I get sucked into the madness. I guess that makes me

It's like when you hear that song on the radio that you hate so much you want to BUT you keep listening to it, because you hate it so much it feels good It's like you feed off of the anger and rage and then you pull over and grab the first drunken bum you can find and just........... .................. ...................uh....nevermind. GO CARBS!!!!! Woo Hooo

Phil a delphia free dom I luh huh huhv you... yesido..


M

i'm on my own....again

I'll always help you if I can.

But, I'd say 95-98% of the board members haven't done any extensive air-fuel testing or dyno comparisons with various combo/jet settings or carbs vs. F.I., so most of us can't be trusted anyway...


Ooooooohhhh....

you take your chances.


KT

All I know is the guys with carbs are on the roads running great while the aftermarket FI people never seem to have running cars. To me that says carbs are the easiest quickest way to a running car. And I can confirm that Albert C just bolted his dual carbs onto a stock 1.8 and his car is faster than my 1.8. He has same exuast headers and muffler as me as well.

Most of what you get here are opinions, not facts. So add my opinion to the lot.

QUOTE (grantsfo @ Aug 25 2005, 05:41 PM)

while the aftermarket FI people never seem to have running cars

Hey I resemble that remark

actually not anymore, my car is up and running with the aftermarket FI

...there are at least 6 914's running aftermarket FI (drivers) right now that I know of, sure the ratio is small, but give it time......

yes, carbs are easier since they can be tuned by ear much easier than FI can, but with the advent of lower cost WBO2 readers that should change...also, there are lot of people just "scared" of EFI, 1st from cost and the tech. side...it's not that bad....

ya know what the sound that i hear sounds like? It sounds like somebody clanking together two or more clay chips....the poker ones.

i think its something bad, like a bad camshaft something....

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 25 2005, 06:05 PM)

ya know what the sound that i hear sounds like? It sounds like somebody clanking together two or more clay chips....the poker ones. i think its something bad, like a bad camshaft something....

Did you just hijack your own thread?

what thread? this is like a pool of words....

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 24 2005, 09:19 AM)

i like the look of triple throat webers, but i have a /4..... just wondering if i'm making stuff up again... ignore this if you must

O.K. , then. Back on topic.

I like the look, too.
I run them on my SIX.

Buy a set for yourself, as they make them for FOURS.

IF YOU HAVE TROUBLE INSTALLING OR TUNING, WE'LL HELP YOU.

KT

well i have to find parts to rebuild my 2.0

seems like my 1.7 is on the way out too...so i have to work pretty hard this semester...

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 25 2005, 06:33 PM)

well i have to find parts to rebuild my 2.0 seems like my 1.7 is on the way out too...so i have to work pretty hard this semester...

Howsabout a chronological summary of your 914? I can't keep track of what's wrong with what, what you've done/not done, etc.

the chip clicking just kinda developed? My car has made some really disturbing sounds that ultimately "went away" after I finally got the valves set properly, the slop out of the carb linkage, the timing down to recommended levels, the plugs/wires/distributor producing good consistant spark, and the exhaust studs secure.

basic auditory lessons learned-
(these are not certainties, but certainly possibilities)
accel sound is like UPS truck = carb linkage worn (applies to dual carbs only)
horiffic CLUNK during startup = timing too high
random but continueous miss-fire = worn dizzy
harley-davidson sound = tight intake valve
VW sound = loose exhaust.

In the course of correcting these things, at various times I was sure I had burned a valve, lost a valve guide, flat spotted the cam, and whatever else I read about. Don't panic. I'm thinking that your noise may be related to the carb, or some other change you have made recently.....

yeah just kinda developed....


i have the clay-chip clicking only upon load or acceleration
and the loose valve VW sound....

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 25 2005, 07:10 PM)

yeah just kinda developed.... i have the clay-chip clicking only upon load or acceleration and the loose valve VW sound....

hows your timing? pinging maybe?

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Aug 25 2005, 08:13 PM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 25 2005, 07:10 PM) yeah just kinda developed.... i have the clay-chip clicking only upon load or acceleration and the loose valve VW sound.... hows your timing? pinging maybe?

see that's the thing, it happens no matter where the timing is....

i retarded the timing and its still doing it....

advanced and its doing it....

so i dont think its timing related....i definately dont think my coil helps though...so i'm going to get me a bosch blue tomorrow...

Just to dump some laquer thinner on this fire.... I feel that the carb vs. F.I. debate boils down to 2 things. Preference and knowledge. When one takes the time to understand F.I. it actually werks very well and is dependable. Carbs are just easier to throw in when you don't have the time/patience/knowledge to fix the F.I. Oh , and the carbs look ALOT better on the engine Yes on a modified car carbs are the way to go but I personally would like to see fuel injected throttle bodies. I know it is (was) available for T1's. Looks like dual carbs but has individual injectors at the base. Uber cool seems like it would be pretty simple to do. No????

QUOTE

Yes on a modified car carbs are the way to go but I personally would like to see fuel injected throttle bodies. I know it is (was) available for T1's. Looks like dual carbs but has individual injectors at the base. Uber cool  seems like it would be pretty simple to do. No????

These throttle bodies will fit on IDF manifolds, and the linkage is the same.

QUOTE (scotty b @ Aug 26 2005, 07:45 PM)

...seems like it would be pretty simple to do. No????

that stuff is all pretty easy. at least, it's all been done for at least 40 years.
the hard part is matching fuel delivery and spark advance to the engine's requirements. IOW - tuning.

if you have a lot of identical engines (i.e. you are a factory making production cars) you tune one, flash those maps into the ECU's and you're done.

if you have a unique engine (and they're *all* a little different...) or you want that last 5% of performance, you get to tune spark and fuel to the engine in question under all possible operating regimes. which means you prety much have to operate it at all possible operating regimes. accel, decel, high temp, low temp, high altitude, hot restart, cruise...

practically, you determine some limits, make a "reasonable" number of data points, and interpolate, and then tweak as needed to correct any unusual resonant flat spots or peaks.

it's still a nontrivial engine characterisation program.

the MFI cars had individual space cams for 2,0 2,2 2,4 2,7 3,0 T, E, S, RS, Carrera and distributors to match each one - and they didn't even compensate for load (they did have thermostatic warmup and altitude aneroids tho...). space cams have a bunch of strange ridges and grooves that at first look like wear marks, but they're not - they're places where a particular throttle setting and rpm needed a little more or less fuel for broad, flat response.

QUOTE (redshift @ Aug 25 2005, 03:40 PM)

Phil a delphia free dom I luh huh huhv you... yesido.. M

Yeah, Miles. That's one of those songs. Along with anything by Billy Joel.

QUOTE (maf914 @ Aug 27 2005, 06:51 AM)

QUOTE (redshift @ Aug 25 2005, 03:40 PM) Phil a delphia free dom I luh huh huhv you... yesido.. M Yeah, Miles. That's one of those songs. Along with anything by Billy Joel.

Ocassionally I will flip over to MTV2 to catch headbangers ball, and I will inadvertantly catch a Missy "misdemeanor" Elliot video. Drives me freaking NUTS but I can't change the channel. It's like a train wreck, "what the hell is going on? can it get any werse?.....YEP there it goes!" Now I TRY to find her videos just so I can get pissed off

Not only do Webers come with 2 throats, they come in "pairs of pairs" so there's a throat for each cylinder.................

QUOTE (tyler @ Aug 30 2005, 11:58 AM)

Not only do Webers come with 2 throats, they come in "pairs of pairs" so there's a throat for each cylinder.................

4 IDF's on what i assume to be a small block? great throttle response im sure


BTW - where in socal have you been hiding?