i like the look of triple throat webers, but i have a /4.....

just wondering if i'm making stuff up again...

ignore this if you must

Yes. Bring money.

Yes. The IDF that everyone mentions when they talk about "dual Webers" have two-throats each, and two are used per car, so four throats total. They're about $250 used on Ebay with no manifolds, linkage, or filters. Figure roughly $500 to have a complete set bolted to the car.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Aug 24 2005, 11:35 AM)

Yes. The IDF that everyone mentions when they talk about "dual Webers" have two-throats each, and two are used per car, so four throats total. They're about $250 used on Ebay with no manifolds, linkage, or filters. Figure roughly $500 to have a complete set bolted to the car.

IDF=dual throat... which is what we told you go go with to start with

the progresive may be great on a beetle, but not a TIV... in addition to ebay, check samba and STF, people sell them used enough that you don't have to break your wallet and get a "new" set... buy a rebuild kit from aircooled.net with any used ones and they will be good as new

dual throat Webers are not made.

they are grown, in the zinc-rich volcanic soil outside Modena, in Italy. they take a long time to mature, hence the high cost.

sometimes, like a double-yolk egg, triple-throat Webers sprout. they are highly prized by the 911 and 914.6 owner.

if a Weber plant is not staked up and grows along the ground, the result is sidedraft carburetors, such as the DCOE.

Dellortos are grown over on the other side of the valley, from seeds spirited away from the Weber farm by disgruntled employees in the dead of night.

"not a lot of people know that."

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 24 2005, 08:19 AM)

ignore this if you must

I must.

What's a Weber? Something you cook hamburgers on?

/MFI guy

So,
I heard a rumour this week that the 40 IDF plantation is being moved from Italy to Japan and that they are shortly going to be coming out of former rice paddies? Any truth to this rumour?

QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Aug 24 2005, 11:59 AM)

dual throat Webers are not made. they are grown, in the zinc-rich volcanic soil outside Modena, in Italy. they take a long time to mature, hence the high cost. sometimes, like a double-yolk egg, triple-throat Webers sprout. they are highly prized by the 911 and 914.6 owner. if a Weber plant is not staked up and grows along the ground, the result is sidedraft carburetors, such as the DCOE. Dellortos are grown over on the other side of the valley, from seeds spirited away from the Weber farm by disgruntled employees in the dead of night. "not a lot of people know that."

QUOTE (aircooledboy @ Aug 24 2005, 10:57 AM)

QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Aug 24 2005, 11:59 AM) dual throat Webers are not made. they are grown, in the zinc-rich volcanic soil outside Modena, in Italy.  they take a long time to mature, hence the high cost. sometimes, like a double-yolk egg, triple-throat Webers sprout.  they are highly prized by the 911 and 914.6 owner. if a Weber plant is not staked up and grows along the ground, the result is sidedraft carburetors, such as the DCOE. Dellortos are grown over on the other side of the valley, from seeds spirited away from the Weber farm by disgruntled employees in the dead of night. "not a lot of people know that."

yep... IDA's and IDF's are both two barrel down drafts....

Idf's are available in 36mm, 40mm, 44mm, and 48mm sizes....
good luck finding some rare 36mm's

QUOTE

So, I heard a rumour this week that the 40 IDF plantation is being moved from Italy to Japan and that they are shortly going to be coming out of former rice paddies? Any truth to this rumour?

I heard the same thing, but instead of Japan it was China. Doesn't PMO have their hardware made in china? Weber also had available the 48 IDA in a 2 throat model. It would use the same floats & hardware as the triple throat model that our 6 cylinder bros like to use.

Great post, Rich...

Weber carb production moved from Italy to Spain some time ago, and the current rumor is the Spanish factory is also closed. Some say it's a temporary strike, others say a strike drove the last nail and Weber is out of the carb business entirely. Mikuni (in Japan) has been making Solex sidedraft carb clones for years (under license), and many people confuse these with DCOE clones, which they're not, though they will work with an appropriate manifold. The Dell Orto factory stopped production of their Weber clones many years ago.

There are rumors that Chinese made IDF and DCOE clones will be flooding the market very soon. Some say what EMPI sells are Chinese made right now. This rumor is one thing depressing the used market for IDFs and DCOEs now. There are enough Italian-made IDFs available on the used market that I've never even seen a Spanish-made unit, and I've had 5-6 sets of these carbs, and have looked at several dozen others.

you also can always get a pair of PMO's and just run 'em through a bandsaw. make sure you keep the pair with the Siamesed float bowl :-)

My local VW shop (I sell to them), informed me last week that production has begun again on Webers. He is able to get IDF style, but not DCOE style.

I really wanted to ignore Britt.....I think his brain has rotted from too much in-breeding and sour mash....

QUOTE (tat2dphreak @ Aug 24 2005, 12:38 PM)

the progresive may be great on a beetle, but not a TIV...

It's a POS on a beetle too

kinda like this britt???

QUOTE (URY914 @ Aug 24 2005, 09:00 AM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 24 2005, 08:19 AM) ignore this if you must I must.

But when you get money I have a complete set up for sale 40 IDF. Too big for your whimpy 1.7L stock cammed racer.

Aaron,

That sight brings back memories (prior to the 3.2). Is that yours? Looks like the "good" linkage that doesn't flex that much.


Britt,

I wouldn't go less than 44's on a 2.0 engine as you can't get chokes large enough for the 40's.

I would take a closer look at aftermarket FI instead of going down the carb road (again).

(just my $0.02)

QUOTE (JOHNMAN @ Aug 24 2005, 02:57 PM)

I wouldn't go less than 44's on a 2.0 engine as you can't get chokes large enough for the 40's. I would take a closer look at aftermarket FI instead of going down the carb road (again). (just my $0.02)

I agree with the aftermarket FI...

however, you can jet 40s for a 2.0 or 2056 fine... ac.net and CB both have the parts

Yes, 40s with 32mm vents are quite enough for a 2056 that doesn't have too wild a cam. 44s are only required for full-race 2056s or bigger engines, IMHO.

And yes, aftermarket EFI will work better still...

Yup that's what I am running on my 2.0L 40 IDF 32 vents Long CB intakes. cam is .500 lift and 290 duration Bursch and SSI's

In regards to the linkage I just took my CB linkage off and put the other kind on. I think the CB piece was just plain wore out as it has too much slop in it. Gotta figure out how to rebuild it.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Aug 24 2005, 03:06 PM)

Yes, 40s with 32mm vents are quite enough for a 2056 that doesn't have too wild a cam. 44s are only required for full-race 2056s or bigger engines, IMHO. And yes, aftermarket EFI will work better still...

I use 32mm vents on weber 40s on my 2056...

125 mains
F11 emulsion
60 idles


all per Jake's recommendation

yeah...kinda like that.

guess I need to get started on building my carbed 2.0

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 24 2005, 01:29 PM)

yeah...kinda like that.

dual throat webers, 44 IDF ...

those look good andy!


sehr gut!


tsch(umlaut U) s!

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 24 2005, 01:37 PM)

those look good andy! sehr gut! tsch(umlaut U) s!

almost 3000 posts and you've never heard of dual webers or seen pictures????

QUOTE (Mueller @ Aug 24 2005, 12:57 PM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 24 2005, 01:37 PM) those look good andy! sehr gut! tsch(umlaut U) s! almost 3000 posts and you've never heard of dual webers or seen pictures????

That's my point zackly!

Rock on Mike, BTW has anyone noticed the Bird board has more activity lately? Yup Britt posts there also.

it's because i didn't care if they were made or not before.

disregard the post numbers, obviously you all know I was just BS'ing.


oh and about the carbs, before this carb i was a full-out FI guy...and before that the only carb i ever seen pictures of is the holley 4 bbl carb that 6 cyl jeeps used.

so until this stint, i didnt really care/notice abotu carbs....

everyone is a "newbie" at one time or another..just remember that.

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 24 2005, 02:05 PM)

it's because i didn't care if they were made or not before. disregard the post numbers, obviously you all know I was just BS'ing. oh and about the carbs, before this carb i was a full-out FI guy...and before that the only carb i ever seen pictures of is the holley 4 bbl carb that 6 cyl jeeps used. so until this stint, i didnt really care/notice abotu carbs.... everyone is a "newbie" at one time or another..just remember that.

Sounds like you need to start caring about more stuff.. Soak it up like a sponge..

Things you should probably start caring about so you won't be a newbie when the time comes:

Cams
Suspension
5 lug stuff
Brakes
Wheels
Porsche sixes
Chevy V8s
Transmissions
Flares
Paint

And not to be down on ya - yes, we were all n00bs once...

But, if you are gearing up to build your 2.0L motor and you don't know about Webers, you need to do some more research. A lot more.

Small steps my friend - the experts here didn't get that way overnight.

But, I understand what you are saying - if you don't care about something, you won't know about it.

I don't know shit about Fords, so there...

Tom

QUOTE (bondo @ Aug 24 2005, 01:24 PM)

Things you should probably start caring about so you won't be a newbie when the time comes: Chevy V8s

QUOTE (Joe Ricard @ Aug 24 2005, 02:16 PM)

QUOTE (JOHNMAN @ Aug 24 2005, 12:57 PM)

Aaron, That sight brings back memories (prior to the 3.2). Is that yours? Looks like the "good" linkage that doesn't flex that much. Britt, I wouldn't go less than 44's on a 2.0 engine as you can't get chokes large enough for the 40's. I would take a closer look at aftermarket FI instead of going down the carb road (again). (just my $0.02)

yup...my motor. 44's on a hot cammed 2.0


yup..they is way too big.

so aaron, wait a sec....

to use my newly learned knowledge:

40s would have been a better fit, right?

Thjis is what you need for your engine, Dodd.
They will work perfectly on a stock 1.7
http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=8_240

"These are a Berg casting that we machine to 58mm. The industry standard 48IDA bolt pattern and dimensions are maintained so they fit all 48IDA manifolds without modification or adapters including V8 applications. Installs facing the same as the Weber 48 IDA so no new linkage needs to be made except with carb to carb linkage such as Tayco, you also need to purchase GB 460J mounting brackets. Idle and progression circuitry is properly designed for the larger bore size, which provides easy tuning, and smooth acceleration from idle up. Topped off with a 62mm velocity stack which provides far more flow, yet still fits our GB 505-51 velocity stack covers. "

I'm gonna use a pair of Holley 1100 CFM Dominators on a couple of 3 lb coffee can manifolds with my 1918

QUOTE (Sammy @ Aug 24 2005, 04:37 PM)

Thjis is what you need for your engine, Dodd. They will work perfectly on a stock 1.7 http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=8_240 "These are a Berg casting that we machine to 58mm. The industry standard 48IDA bolt pattern and dimensions are maintained so they fit all 48IDA manifolds without modification or adapters including V8 applications. Installs facing the same as the Weber 48 IDA so no new linkage needs to be made except with carb to carb linkage such as Tayco, you also need to purchase GB 460J mounting brackets. Idle and progression circuitry is properly designed for the larger bore size, which provides easy tuning, and smooth acceleration from idle up. Topped off with a 62mm velocity stack which provides far more flow, yet still fits our GB 505-51 velocity stack covers. "

58mm!!??

a bit overkill for my 1.7 isnt it?

Get 40's, or a set of the baby Webers, I think they are single 36's? That would work great on a 1.7.

You could build a MegaSquirt system and just stop dorking around with carbs.



Tom

i'm thinking I would get better milage with a MS than I would with carbs anyway, plus I could use my plenum and intake runners from my D-jet system


I was also thinking about L-Jet too.....The local muffler guy is also a 914 nut, and he has a complete L-Jet setup from a bus for sale....also has a 2.2 /4....

lemme ask this, is MS able to be self-tuned? Or would I have to take it somewhere.....? I think I would be more intrested in tuning an FI system with a computer than I would tuning carbs.

I have a complete weber set up for a 2.0, intakes, carbs, CB linkage, tall air cleaners, intake horns, proper distributor, and boxes of chokes, main and idle jets.

Interested?

QUOTE

I think I would be more intrested in tuning an FI system with a computer than I would tuning carbs.

from the posts and threads I've read of late, I'll take that to mean: "I'd rather work on my car and never drive it".

How much is an aftermarket F.I. BTW?
Way more than carbs, I promise you that.

carbs are so simple and they work.

If you want fuel efficiency and reliability, the 914 is the wrong car. We all know that. We won't all admit that.
But, we all know.


See, look what you've made me become.

KT

wait...you opened pandora's box man....

MS is like 300 assembled and everything....

the kit is less than that. I am very good at soldering so I was going to get the kit.....

tuning and laptop equip is free....


how do you figure the cost difference?

Time is money.

Maybe I'm way off, and if I am, I'll admit that openly.

I just don't see the crowds running any aftermarket F.I. with fantastic results.

the carbs go on in an afternoon and that's it. you're done...and they win.

I'd just like to know the *actual* price for any aftermarket F.I. and an estimated time to install and tune to the point where you can go and enjoy the car without taking the lap-top in the passenger seat.

You made me do it again...

KT

QUOTE (trekkor @ Aug 24 2005, 08:25 PM)

Time is money. Maybe I'm way off, and if I am, I'll admit that openly. I just don't see the crowds running any aftermarket F.I. with fantastic results. the carbs go on in an afternoon and that's it. you're done...and they win. I'd just like to know the *actual* price for any aftermarket F.I. and an estimated time to install and tune to the point where you can go and enjoy the car without taking the lap-top in the passenger seat. You made me do it again... KT

so what you're saying is that I could have a carb setup going in a day?

i think that if i had MS, I would keep a laptop in my car.....

i'm not worried about it being stolen, it's a 2 inch thick Thinkpad 380...pentium 133.

And try this tasy tidbit.

All this "carbs won't work with the stock cam"... is *MYTH*.

Back that up with hard evidence you demand ( pounding fist on table ).

Certainly.

One of our local 914 a/x pros used to run his duals on his 2.0 hot cammed motor. He blew that motor, but still wanted to race.

So he bolted them onto an old stock 1.8 with no adjustments.
Guess what? The motor runs fantastic. No issues.
Could it run better? maybe.
...beat me by 1/2 second and 80 other drivers.
he missed TTOD by less than a second.


Albert Correia can drive.
See for yourself

KT

correct me if i'm wrong but IIRC that $300 kit doesn't include the wideband O2 sensor it really requires to dial in an unknown engine.

you can get into the base level kit if you're running the same production engine as other guys who've done the dyno tuning and are willing to share their maps. in a competitive environment, i wouldn't bet my last shekel you're getting the *best* map :-) ...

and with carbs - you can bolt them on and be *close* in an afternoon. once you're in the ballpark with a broad strokes characterisation of your engine, the *real* tuning can begin to optimise. some kind of instrumentation (wideband O2, CO, 5-gas... *something*) is still needed to really dial spot on. or - again - if you have an engine that's just like everybdy else's - you order up their jets and decree it close enough.

a little lean on top? bigger main jet? smaller air correction? different emulsion tube? you need a big box of spare parts to *really* dial in a set of carbs...

so i think you've both underestimated the scope of the task a bit, unless you're willing to settle for the "close enough" solution. the advantage of a closed-loop EFI is that it'll eventually self-correct, but carbs are what they are forever (or until the weather changes :-) ....)

QUOTE (trekkor @ Aug 24 2005, 08:37 PM)

And try this tasy tidbit. All this "carbs won't with the stock cam"... is *MYTH*. Back that up with hard evidence you demand ( pounding fist on table ). Certainly. One of our local 914 a/x pros used to run his duals on his 2.0 hot cammed motor. He blew that motor, but still wanted to race. So he bolted them onto an old stock 1.8 with no adjustments. Guess what? The motor runs fantastic. No issues. Could it run better? maybe. ...beat me by 1/2 second and 80 other drivers. he missed TTOD by less than a second. Albert Correia can drive. See for yourself KT

i fully agree with that...I have *NO* problem with my FI cammed motor and the carbs....

my P-mechanic didn't like the idea at all, but we both agreed that my FI was toast.

QUOTE (trekkor @ Aug 24 2005, 10:37 PM)

All this "carbs won't with the stock cam"... is *MYTH*.

of course, because that's not what the statement really is...

the "urban legend" hot-rod tuner myth is that you can bolt on carbs *and go faster*.

that's what's not true. carbs run just fine with stock cams but they don't add power. IOW - the cam - not the induction - is the bottleneck.

i ran small Dellortos on a 1,7 and they were fine. i got no more power, but i did gain reliability. this was 25 years ago before the body of DJet knowledge was available to all. it was the right decision to make then, and i wish i'd kept the carbs when the car went away, but nowadays, i'd just fix the FI...

QUOTE

so what you're saying is that I could have a carb setup going in a day?

yes...

If you know the size of your motor. ( And you do.)

Ask the board ( or Jake, nicely ) what jet/choke combo works and install "that" during the rebuild if you buy used ones.

KT