hi guys
i want to upgread my 1973 1.8 engine
i want 2 stay with 4 cyl and i want around 150-180 hp
were can i do it?
how?
kits?
do you know prices range?
thanks a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go here and check your options.

The short answer is...

First I'd say reasearch this for at least one month!

We'd all like to have 150-180 but it is expensive.

The cheapest way to get this kind of HP is to do a conversion.

Otherwise do a search here on Jake Raby - resident TYPE4 builder/guru.

Jim

i watched jake's site probebly he is very relyable but very very expensive...

p.s


thats my honey

QUOTE (Headrage @ Oct 4 2005, 11:29 AM)

Go here and check your options.

jake knows his motors ...

Andy

QUOTE (bender @ Oct 4 2005, 11:59 AM)

i watched jake's site probebly he is very relyable but very very expensive...

you get what you pay for ... i would advise against cheaping out on a new motor ...

ask me how i know!
Andy

QUOTE (bender @ Oct 4 2005, 10:59 AM)

i watched jake's site probebly he is very relyable but very very expensive... p.s thats my honey

I can give you at least 2 other places that can do what Jake does, but they're more expensive. You can good, or you can get cheap, but not in the same transaction. Your other options are conversions involving various water pumpers, or a 911 engine of one size or another. All options require substantial investments of both time and money. The Cap'n

so my man is the raby?
thanks

Think I'm expensive???

Make a few dozen mistakes, blow some engines apart or buy junk parts and you'll see what expensive is all about.

Thats exactly how I learned and thats why I can help you when no one else can/will.....

My kit engines are NOT expensive.. 4500 bucks for all the internals to create a 150 HP engine is NOT expensive, especially when they are precision balanced and based on a true engine design- not a bunch of parts thrown in a box by some parts pusher that does not have grease under his nails..

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 4 2005, 12:49 PM)

Think I'm expensive??? Make a few dozen mistakes, blow some engines apart or buy junk parts and you'll see what expensive is all about. Thats exactly how I learned and thats why I can help you when no one else can/will..... My kit engines are NOT expensive.. 4500 bucks for all the internals to create a 150 HP engine is NOT expensive, especially when they are precision balanced and based on a true engine design- not a bunch of parts thrown in a box by some parts pusher that does not have grease under his nails..

the 2016 turbo kit
its a 4 cyl kit?
whats the hp for it?
thanks

try pricing the parts seperately that jake uses in his kits... you can't buy the seperate pieces and make the same combo for the same price... Jake's kits are a great deal... and you get Jake's experience putting the combos together... which you can't put a tag on!

QUOTE (bender @ Oct 4 2005, 02:09 PM)

the 2016 turbo kit its a 4 cyl kit? whats the hp for it? thanks

just so you know, that is just for the engine "kit" that is suited for a turbo....price does not include the turbo or the exhaust or the intake plumbing for it........


one thing you are going to learn here is that these are 30 year old aircooled cars...not modern Hondas so forget everything you read in Sport Compact Car 'cause it's a different world here unless you install a different modern engine.......

there is hope for us that want to keep the aircooled /4 motors, it just won't be easy or cheap

QUOTE (Mueller @ Oct 4 2005, 03:11 PM)

QUOTE (bender @ Oct 4 2005, 02:09 PM) the 2016 turbo kit its a 4 cyl kit? whats the hp for it? thanks just so you know, that is just for the engine "kit" that is suited for a turbo....price does not include the turbo or the exhaust or the intake plumbing for it........ one thing you are going to learn here is that these are 30 year old aircooled cars...not modern Hondas so forget everything you read in Sport Compact Car 'cause it's a different world here unless you install a different modern engine....... there is hope for us that want to keep the aircooled /4 motors, it just won't be easy or cheap

if thats the case probebly ill stay with atmosperic motors
the 170 hp kit around 4.5K$ at raby's sounds great for my needs, but i need to see what i can do...
thanks

QUOTE (bender @ Oct 4 2005, 04:16 PM)

if thats the case probebly ill stay with atmosperic motors the 170 hp kit around 4.5K$ at raby's sounds great for my needs, but i need to see what i can do... thanks

and then you need to add the cost of dual carbs or aftermarket fuel injection..the stock FI will not support 170hp as is. ...

QUOTE (Mueller @ Oct 4 2005, 03:19 PM)

QUOTE (bender @ Oct 4 2005, 04:16 PM) if thats the case probebly ill stay with atmosperic motors the 170 hp kit around 4.5K$ at raby's sounds great for my needs, but i need to see what i can do... thanks and then you need to add the cost of dual carbs or aftermarket fuel injection..the stock FI will not support 170hp as is. ...

whats better?
the carbs or injection?
what the approximet costs?
thanks a lot

QUOTE (bender @ Oct 4 2005, 04:39 PM)

QUOTE (Mueller @ Oct 4 2005, 03:19 PM) QUOTE (bender @ Oct 4 2005, 04:16 PM) if thats the case probebly ill stay with atmosperic motors the 170 hp kit around 4.5K$ at raby's sounds great for my needs, but i need to see what i can do... thanks and then you need to add the cost of dual carbs or aftermarket fuel injection..the stock FI will not support 170hp as is. ... whats better? the carbs or injection? what the approximet costs? thanks a lot

i like FI better....some people only like carbs....


carbs are going to run at least $500 for all the parts (based on good used parts), more money for new, less for junk that will need to be rebuilt

FI, a total DIY setup starts at about $400, but that does not include the wiring which you will have to do. Also you'll need a few hundred dollars worth of sensors (some can be used to save money) and then you have to do the programming with a laptop (or pendant if you go with a few different brands)

my 1st aftermarket FI cost me less than $300 using used parts with some new parts used as well....my latest FI cost $1100 and it still required me to use old parts and purchase some other stuff.

Yep- If you are a first timer, don't even think of the Turbo kit...

I'd do the 2270- its super easy to build and makes more than enough power.

You must crawl before you walk- getting inm over your head is VERY easy (but I won't let you do it)

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 4 2005, 03:49 PM)

Yep- If you are a first timer, don't even think of the Turbo kit... I'd do the 2270- its super easy to build and makes more than enough power. You must crawl before you walk- getting inm over your head is VERY easy (but I won't let you do it)

thats why i'm asking the experts....
im gonna think only about the atmosperic kits!!
i heared that the fi does problems , is it right?
thanks a lot

QUOTE (bender @ Oct 4 2005, 05:12 PM)

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 4 2005, 03:49 PM) Yep- If you are a first timer, don't even think of the Turbo kit... I'd do the 2270- its super easy to build and makes more than enough power. You must crawl before you walk- getting inm over your head is VERY easy (but I won't let you do it) thats why i'm asking the experts.... im gonna think only about the atmosperic kits!! i heared that the fi does problems , is it right? thanks a lot

the FI can have problems, but so do carbs, nothing is 100% trouble free........

generally,dual carbs are easier, but that's a poor excuse to run them if given the choice between the 2 systems.

QUOTE (bender @ Oct 4 2005, 05:12 PM)

i heared that the fi does problems , is it right? thanks a lot

Like Meuller said, stock L or D-jet FI will only let you tweek things a very little bit. I your going with something that makes the kind of power you want it'll have to be either an aftermarket FI system like magasquirt or carbs...

FI vs carbs, once the FI is set up right, it will tend to stay set up right, you sort of have to dick around with carbs, which is okay, but you don't want to spend more time tuning than driving.

Another thing you can do is do an engine swap....

Such as a subaru engine. 180hp N/A is a great thing...

Then theres turbo's...

You wont get 180hp for 4500 with a type 4...
At least with any kind of reliability..

140hp on the other hand.. possibly...

Good luck, and dont limit your options... ("this is the way to go, this is your only choice" ect)

I am not saying anything Bad about Jakes engines.. If you wanted to stay T4, I also suggest him....

If the Subaru was aircooled I'd say go for it...

Friggin radiators suck, if you want acar with a radiator sell the 914 to someone who appreciates the aircooled heritage and buy a freakin WRX..

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 4 2005, 09:01 PM)

If the Subaru was aircooled I'd say go for it... Friggin radiators suck, if you want acar with a radiator sell the 914 to someone who appreciates the aircooled heritage and buy a freakin WRX..

jake, you rock!

Thanks.. Some days I'm a better asshole than others...

Talking about engines with radiators brings out the best in me for sure....

Heritage or not you can't beat Physics. Water is a better cooling medium than air.

So physics is why you drive a rice burner... Figured as much.

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 5 2005, 08:21 AM)

So physics is why you drive a rice burner... Figured as much.

The Japanese are hardly the only ones using water for cooling. Last time I looked, VW was only using water to cool their engines...

But those aren't VWs... they may have the logo but they are made from recycled beer cans and 2 Liter coke bottles like all the other new pieces of shit on the market....

real VWs don't have radiators and are not made of plastic..

A buddy of mine was coming through town the other day and on a used car lot right in front of the only main traffic light we have in town... He is driving an old ratted out 70 beetle that he uses as a beater car to drive through Atlanta traffic......

So this car salesman on the used car lot sees him stopped in traffic at the light and yells hey and points at a brand new beetle and says "Hey looks like its time to trade that one in for a new model"...

My buddy Dave says, what you mean that plastic piece of shit over there??? Nah, it has a radiator, I'll drive a real one- no thanks..

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 5 2005, 09:21 AM)

So physics is why you drive a rice burner... Figured as much.

Im sorry... but thats not much of an argument jake...

Thats a personal attack.

now if you said that japanese cars suck at cooling, and thus have a ton of issues, and that aircooled cars have no cooling issues to speak of, then I would think that would be a much better argument...

but... thats not true either..

Your backing up your claims with storys and other claims.
We understand you dont like radiators. I can understand your a bit of a purist.

Take the purist aside, and give us some facts as to WHY you dont like radiators.. Numbers.. ect.. What your known for jake.

Well it wasn't a personal attack.. Those involve fists and ball bats in my book...

As for justification as to WHY I don't like radiators and water cooled cars- well its hard to explain..

I'm not a purist by the wildest stretch of the word and I don't care if anyone cuts up any VW/ Porsche as long as it retains the aircooled engine. The one thing that separates the aircooled VW/ Porsche from every other generic car on the planet is the powerplant.. Whats the use in owning one if you get rid of that trait??

Hell I'm the guy that took the very last VW Bug conmvertible ever sold in the US and ripped its original engine out and replaced it with a 175 HP TIV when the car only had TWENTY SEVEN miles on it and still had the paper dealer plates intact.. But it stayed aircooled. If that would have been my car I would not have done it, but the open wallet and the customers lust for being different was noted so I did it.... So- I'm not a purist..

I like what I like and I practice what I preach and what I work with every day.. I refuse to come in here and offer aircooled advice knowing that I drove a watercooled car to work....

So....don't crucify me for being hardcore- thats the problem with todays world, not enough people have strong enough beliefs to get the damn job done, thats not the case here..

BTW- All the numbers add up and they DO point to the facts that water IS a better cooling medium than air and I WILL admit that- BUT that fact isn't going to keep the guys with aircooled cars on the road that want to retain the unique characteristic of aircooling, now is it??

you gotta love the fact that Jake is a hardcore loyalist to the aircooled engine...for me, it's a love/hate relationship with air and watercooled engines since I have both and like/dislike each method of cooling.

Jake when I said purist, I ment the fact that your pure and loyal to the aircooled engines...

Thank you for going past your claim and admitting that radiator cars do not suck.

Each has its pro's and cons.

Obviously, the pro's to radiators outweight the pro's to aircooled because of what is current in todays cars.

I havent had an aircooled engine I liked. But i've only had one. So my opinion is biast.

If I build a T4 go cart, (its in my plans) then Im sure that biast may change.

Andrew

I like simplicity and it doesn't get much simpler that a cooling fan and no radiator....

yup, its all the simplicity of it, how many hours do you have making sure your engine specs run cool. lets see air volumn, cooling fine surface, oil cooler surface, air pths, etc etc

if it was so easy how long and why did you have to make a dtm for a 914, why not just bolts on parts.... because it wont work.... nice and simple

jake you make nice motors, but they cost money, mostly due to the time you put in to them, heck the parts are not much when compared to labor at 50 $ per hour or what ever you charge.
but some people ( myself included ) like the thought of air cooled but when hp per $, and how long it will last gets in to it, we will go H2O. i also think some people want a more modern 914, thats why we have gone H2O, bigger brakes, new seats, new shifters etc etc.
i would bet that if somebody made a modern 914, with a water cooled engine, ps, pb, ac, nicer seats but all with the classic look of a 914 almost every body here would be lining up to test drive and maybe even buy one.
my question to all of the members here ? would you buy a car that WAS and IS a 914 that you could just jump in to and drive in almost any weather all the time?

I noticed this same "upgread" upgrade thread has been posted on many different forums out there (including Pelican, Rennlist, Shoptalk, etc.) and in every place, Jake gets recommended.

Kudos Jake, it's good to see a consistent solid reputation out there.

I've always wanted to do a v8 conversion. But when I finally have the bucks saved up I will first look hard at a 180+hp RAT motor with a DTM cooling system that just bolts in.

QUOTE (scott thacher @ Oct 5 2005, 03:24 PM)

yup, its all the simplicity of it, how many hours do you have making sure your engine specs run cool. lets see air volumn, cooling fine surface, oil cooler surface, air pths, etc etc if it was so easy how long and why did you have to make a dtm for a 914, why not just bolts on parts.... because it wont work.... nice and simple jake you make nice motors, but they cost money, mostly due to the time you put in to them, heck the parts are not much when compared to labor at 50 $ per hour or what ever you charge. but some people ( myself included ) like the thought of air cooled but when hp per $, and how long it will last gets in to it, we will go H2O. i also think some people want a more modern 914, thats why we have gone H2O, bigger brakes, new seats, new shifters etc etc. i would bet that if somebody made a modern 914, with a water cooled engine, ps, pb, ac, nicer seats but all with the classic look of a 914 almost every body here would be lining up to test drive and maybe even buy one. my question to all of the members here ? would you buy a car that WAS and IS a 914 that you could just jump in to and drive in almost any weather all the time?

Scott,

you are avoiding the point that Jake is taking over where the factory left off, the Type IV was a good motor in it's time, it served it's purpose.

Just like the early Subaru motors, look at all the changes they have gone thru? The very 1st ones where almost identical copies of the type I, now many years and millions of dollars later, they have matured by leaps and bounds.

I don't think the subaru motor is as bullet proof as everyone thinks it is...look at the problems Rich has/had with his....they are not a perfect solution.

mike, i am not missing the point, yes i like the type 4, and would have installed a 175 hp type in my car if i could have done it for 2700, and not had to pull it every 50 k for a refresh. also if it did not need to be touched every 3 k miles. yes i did this and i enjoyed some parts of it, heck i put 30 k on my car in 18 months so i got real quick at doing valve adjusts. my car spent on average 2 days a month having some thing done to it.

if i was racing my car i would send jake a big check, or if my car was a show car i would be calling jake, but my car is a driver.

jake has taken up where VW stopped, and he has really improved it in some areas. if some one wants to stay air cooled then go porsche 6 or raby, and i have told probably about 40 people over the last 5 years about jake and will continue to.

when some one decides they want more hp they have to decide raby or six or swap, then go from there. in this decision it falls down to a few things, like cost, relibility ( which jake has ) easy of swap, and final out come. and by final out come i mean things like if they are happy, if they would have done something else when its complete etc

QUOTE

would you buy a car that WAS and IS a 914 that you could just jump in to and drive in almost any weather all the time?

only reason for not driving an old 914 year around is due to the seals leaking..it has "nothing" to do with the powerplant

you mean a new modern one?? I doubt it, it wouldn't have the same character, it would just be a 914 in name only and of course be priced too high.....

QUOTE

I also think some people want a more modern 914, thats why we have gone H2O, bigger brakes, new seats, new shifters etc etc

Sounds like a Fiero to me...

settle guys arent we all here to enjoy our 914s why argue and get upset obviously jake is very competent and has quite the reputation for what he does and thats his choice of opinion we all have the same reason to be here we love OUR version of the 914 so lets not
just appreciate someone elses hard work even if we dont like what they have done ,its there car hence their problem

Fieros would be cool, if they where a porsche, had more power, and sounded better... not to mention looked better..

There are plenty of T4's and aircooleds being run daily in all weather...

Well... Slap a Subaru engine in a Fiero...

Part of a Porsche to me is being aircooled- the new Porsches aren't really Porsche's either- they have damn radiators too!

What pisses me off it they actually had the gall to call that new thing they came up with a damn Carrera GT..

This is a REAL Carrera GT and I don't see a piece of plastic OR a damn radiator..



Real carrera have 4 cams, and no radiator- justlike this one.. The marketing freak at Porsche that named that new thing the carrera GT needs his ass beat..



Don't you guys love me???

i have the suby conversion in my 914
but if i ever see a suby motor in that i will kill the person who did it
we all want something nice and a 914 is in the grasp of most (thankfully)
porsche has evolved like all else but we DO need those who will not deviate from the original so that beautiful cars like that gt will always be

the, distributor caps are plastic I think... *cough

And yes, there are cars like that that should be pure.

I'll give you the keys to a new carrera gt or an old one...

and I'd bet i'd know which one you'd pick...

Im sorry dave, I just cant do that. Dave, dave.



Im sorry, but I like what porsche was and what porsche is. I consider it 2 company's. And Im proud of what both have accomplished.

Andrew

Which dizzy caps are plastic?? On the new GT or the old one??

The old ones were bakelite..


Yep, I know which Carrera I'd take, it's the one in the pics.. It sold for 420,000 bucks 2 months after I finished it's powerplant..

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 5 2005, 08:20 PM)

Which dizzy caps are plastic?? On the new GT or the old one?? The old ones were bakelite.. Yep, I know which Carrera I'd take, it's the one in the pics.. It sold for 420,000 bucks 2 months after I finished it's powerplant..

Damn I thought that was some kind of kit car made out of a old VW.


Bob

I have always liked the aircooled motors I've had.

1600 T1
2110 T1
1.8 T4
1776 T1
2.0 T4
2.0 SIX

The fact of the matter is, they can't be relied on day in day out without extensive regular maintenance.
( My Nissan doesn't even require a tune up until 105k miles )

For a hobby/race car, that's fine. Half the fun is wrenching.

I'm not going to say *ALL*, but almost all of the vehicles that are called on for day in day out reliabilty, fire, police, buses, taxi's, work trucks, not to mention millions and millions of passenger cars have radiators...It's OK.

I'll always have an aircooled if possible, but never as my driver.


KT

from my 10 second research of bakelite, it is a plastic... just an early one...

yes, I knew you'd pick the original. And I understand why.

(tis why I did the quote..)

QUOTE

The fact of the matter is, they can't be relied on day in day out without extensive regular maintenance

YES THEY CAN!

But its all in getting them buttoned up the right way the first time and getting rid of just enough of the factory issues to make them more reliable...

The 912E engine in my DD has 87K miles on it- I drove it to the runoffs and back (1871 miles) and did not open the decklid once and have not since.. I didn't even check the oil!

That same engine was built old school-I didn't even check running clearances, just slapped it together made sure I could not catch a nail on the crankshaft, slapped some bearings in it, a set of KB 96s and built the heads and let it fly.. That was 3 years ago and 5 driver's eds ago as well... On more than one occasion at a DE at Roebling Road I rattled the rod bearings in turn 6 all the way onto the straight away and the engine still didn't die... that was about 50K miles ago..

The last time I had to adjust a valve on a check up was in Feb 2003.. I have went as much as 20K without even checking the valves!

The thing that amazes me most is 18K miles on the same oil change...... and then after an oil change another 12K before the next..

This is not limited to the 912E, either.. My Bus engine pushed a 5,000 pound beast and tows a beetle behind it and has for 5 years... I don't even keep track of mileage or maintenance- I just slide in the key and drive it and don't care if it explodes- but it don't... and it's a stroker also built primarily from used parts...

Then we have the 3 Liter bug and the 2316 in the 914 that both racked up 10K miles each this summer, neither had the first oil change and both were driven like hell. I didn't even synch the carbs on the 3 liter, nor the 914 the entire time... Even though they are both crazed R&D engines with 10+:1 CR they still were driven to and from Beth's house a couple of times each week and thats a 105 mile trip each way, and I don't drive the speed limit (especially with 235 HP)!

The problem is that most aircooled engines are misunderstood by their builders and tuners and because of that they are never fully optimized....

I have proven by not even owning anything other than an aircooled car that one can be driven in the modern world, neglected, abused and still stay alive with no particular maintenance- true facts are true facts and I have the odometers and log books to prove it..

General statements about aircooled engines not being reliable is BS... Anything thats never optimized, not thoroughly designed and half way assembled will constantly need tuning- watercooled or aircooled, it don't matter!