911 SC? #1

I know so little 'bout brakes....

Also best struts?

I think Koni adjustables but how bout Bilsteins?

Mucho thanks guys,
Roger

Without question, the latest PCCBs.

For track use, your results may vary.

For 914 use, your results may REALLY vary. Does it need to look period correct? The closest thing there that is still a truly amazing brake is probably 917 brakes or (far more reasonably) the original 911 Turbo four-pot calipers adapted from them.

But I, too, am curious though: Between 911M, 911S, 911 SC, and Carrera 3.2...?

Prevailing wisdom?

pete

Too many variables left out of the mix.

The following are my opinions based upon engineered systems:

M-Caliper and Boge Strut - Good for stock 914's through 150hp. Replace the P-valve with a T-Fitting -or- replace the 914-4 rear caliper with a 914-6 rear caliper (t-fitting is $9.00 and 914-6 calipers are more like $900) This works for 914-6 applications and basic 911's up to 140hp.

S-Caliper/A-Caliper (SC) and Related Strut - Good for stock 914's through 240hp. Replace the P-Valve with a T-Fitting and possibly use a vented rear rotor. Stock rear brakes are marginal at this point. Consider using a rear M-Caliper and a different handbrake assembly. Works for 911S, 911RS and the first 930 Turbo (240hp).

Carrera 3.2 and Related Strut - As above but I would definitly use a larger rear and vented rotor.

Early 930 (meaning the specific 930 caliper which is noted as the 917-style) - Go with the entire system and find a handbrake alternative.

Beyond those... as above for the 930 (917-style).

Weight in with your other caliper choices (but he did say 911). I think Mueller has a formula for piston size. That's what I would go with if you wanted to do a mix and match.

in my experience...,
M's with an aggresive pad are way more than adequate. about the stock size pad of a 914.....
S and A calipers. bigger pad sizes. S = aluminum. A's = steel


Boxster Monoblocks. Can be retrofittd to 3" and 3.5" struts.

Wow, thanks guys. =-)

Is there an easy way to identify the aluminum and steel calipers?

What year were they manufactured?

As you guys know, i'm running that pumped up 355 cid SBC and in my limited road time got the brakes to smokin real quick. =-))))

I swear this group rocks.

QUOTE (rogergrubb @ Nov 30 2005, 12:39 PM)

Wow, thanks guys. =-) Is there an easy way to identify the aluminum and steel calipers? What year were they manufactured? I swear this group rocks.

aluminum S calipers have an externl hardline that connects the caliper halves together....

years? 67?-74? not sure. oh yeah. they are aluminum colored

Eric,

What's your view on caliper flex with the S calipers...?

Why not 944 turbo calipers?

Those rock...

4 piston, bit pads...

cheap as dirt (250 in the classifieds right now...

QUOTE

Is there an easy way to identify the aluminum and steel calipers?

Yes Sir Mr. Sweetbuns...

Aluminum calipers are made of aluminum. Steel calipers are made from steel.

(or what AA-ron said)

Pete... I've never felt it but others have. I'll bet they flex some. But, it seemed to work for LeMans winning GT's, and 908's and, and, and... I've seen pads that are worn funny but that was strickly due to pin and spring issues not flex.

I always like to think about how our stock little cars could be driven by Vic Elford or Brian Redmond. Do we really need all this $hit or might some seat time do the trick?

I'd love to hand one of those cats the keys to my car and go along for a thrill ride. I'd be willing to bet I'd come back feeling quite inadequate

Also... before we get too far into this. If you plan to go beyond the first M-Caliper system I mentioned, I would recommend you get more tire patch on the ground. Meaning; possibly flares, larger wheels, different (race) compounds...

917 brakes aren't going to stop you any sooner than 914 brakes if you've got the same contact patch.

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ Nov 30 2005, 12:51 PM)

Do we really need all this $hit or might some seat time do the trick?

Well, I keep telling readers that, 99.99 percent of the time, the slowest component in any Porsche is its driver.

That said, we all love the technology and making educated choices. I put 911M calipers on the front of my 914 13 years ago and they have been all the brakes I've needed.

But I've always been interested in the unsprung weight advantages of the S calipers.

But I doubt that small changes in unsprung weight are noticeable by the driver -- even a sensitive one. Walter Rohrl says he doesn't think he could tell the difference between a GT3 with PCCBs and one with steel brakes from behind the wheel -- and that's ELEVEN pounds per corner!

So yep, it can get pretty academic and I agree -- $3,000 spent on instruction from a David Murry is a hell of a lot better than $3000 spent on brakes for one car.

Oh yeah, and how much speed does that trick "coating" on your rebuilt calipers add?

If I had another body to assist, I could go check for flex right now.
I can hear & feel them flex, just dunno how much.
If you want a high hard pedal,you prolly wanna go to something else.....but their lightness gets my vote.
I had to listen to Britian whine about it after he drove my car.
He'd bitch if ya hung him with a new rope.

QUOTE

Oh yeah, and how much speed does that trick "coating" on your rebuilt calipers add?

I did a set for Redmond. He put them on his 914-6 and said he got an extra .02316 of a second at the "Ring" with them! Now Rohrl wants a set... those guys are all so damned competitive!

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Nov 30 2005, 12:41 PM)

QUOTE (rogergrubb @ Nov 30 2005, 12:39 PM) Wow, thanks guys. =-)   Is there an easy way to identify the aluminum and steel calipers? What year were they manufactured? I swear this group rocks.    :D aluminum S calipers have an externl hardline that connects the caliper halves together.... years? 67?-74? not sure. oh yeah. they are aluminum colored

External line....yes

Color.....gold anodized

Yeh...I've got a set under my desk, along with SCs, Brembo Monoblocks, Brembo regular, etc...............

I to tired to shoot images..so suffer

Like has been said before, it all depends on your application.

Personally, I think the stock brakes have an underserved reputation. A good set of well-built calipers, a good set of pads, a good master cylinder, and some fresh brake lines will work extreemely well. And if you have enough clamping force to lock up your tires, you have enough brake. After that, the issues that come up are more complicated. Like, brake modulation and heat management. The first is generally solved first by the driver, then by pad and master cylinder selection. The second can be controlled by ducting. Amazing what a little ducting can do at the track...

If you've got a built race car, and you plan on hauling the car down from 100+mph often and in quick succession, then the need for big brakes becomes more real. But for street applications, I find the stock brakes can be made to work just fine.

Remember, the car doesn't weigh much. The big ol' 4 pot brembos and the like were needed for heavier cars that were routinely needing to slow down from 120+ mph.

-Josh2

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Nov 30 2005, 02:00 PM)

If I had another body to assist, I could go check for flex right now. I can hear & feel them flex, just dunno how much. If you want a high hard pedal,you prolly wanna go to something else.....but their lightness gets my vote. I had to listen to Britian whine about it after he drove my car. He'd bitch if ya hung him with a new rope.

Hey now...

I didn't think that I would be able to tell a difference, but it is very noticable under hard braking with a lot of speed. Now that I know about the differences in feel, next time I drive JP's car I will be able to adjust in advance...that is if he lets me drive it again.

-Britain

It's probably those super-duper heavy duty bolts you have in yours

QUOTE (rogergrubb @ Nov 30 2005, 10:33 AM)

I know so little 'bout brakes....

i've got mid '80s carrera on all 4 corners ...

Andy

QUOTE

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Nov 30 2005, 12:41 PM) QUOTE (rogergrubb @ Nov 30 2005, 12:39 PM) Wow, thanks guys. =-)   Is there an easy way to identify the aluminum and steel calipers? What year were they manufactured? I swear this group rocks.       aluminum S calipers have an externl hardline that connects the caliper halves together.... years? 67?-74? not sure. oh yeah. they are aluminum colored

Used a magnet.....Aluminum (nonstick) Steel (Stick)

Year = What car did you take them off?? Sorry JK

PS: Edited due to Spelling errors a=s?

QUOTE (Jeffs9146 @ Nov 30 2005, 02:27 PM)

Used a magnet.....A=Aluminum (nonstick) S=Steel (Stick)

Ah shucks you beat me to it.

-Ben M.

ps - the magnet won't stick to the caliper if you heat it above about 1,450 degrees F, so be sure to use the magnet test at lower temps than that.

QUOTE (airsix @ Nov 30 2005, 02:39 PM)

QUOTE (Jeffs9146 @ Nov 30 2005, 02:27 PM) Used a magnet.....A=Aluminum (nonstick) S=Steel (Stick) Ah shucks you beat me to it. -Ben M. ps - the magnet won't stick to the caliper if you heat it above about 1,450 degrees F, so be sure to use the magnet test at lower temps than that.

Yeah.......except S are aluminium & A are steel......hay, It wasn't my idea.

Damn, here I've been thinking the A and M calipers were cast iron and not steel. So what do I know. Anyway, the first 911 turbo aka 930 also used the S calipers.
My buddy who has the 914, 935 and GT1 said the S doesn't flex worth noticing, but the floor in front of the pedal cluster does, so brace the master cylinder. With his 230 HP he does not find anything bigger than the S caliper is really beneficial, and he has tried several of his bigger sets.

QUOTE (rogergrubb @ Nov 30 2005, 11:39 AM)

Is there an easy way to identify the aluminum and steel calipers?

magnet

John


P.S. I wanted to get that in here BEFORE SLITS did!

damnnnn too late,

J

QUOTE

Damn, here I've been thinking the A and M calipers were cast iron and not steel. So what do I know.

I'll bet you know the carbon count is anywhere from .5% to 2.5% more in cast iron...

(otherwise they're both the same iron with carbon as the primary alloying material)

What were you stupid guys thinking?!?!?!

Sorry... I'm bored.

I agree with a couple things in this here thread. Aaron and Pete are spot on with the M-Caliper (me thinks). Not much more you need with most cars. Dave's bud proves my theory on the S-Calipers as well. That's what's on my cars.

Somebody makes adapters to put Boxster brakes on 3"?

QUOTE (914RS @ Nov 30 2005, 06:16 PM)

Oh so sexy, but can anyone say "tire limited?"

QUOTE

Somebody makes adapters to put Boxster brakes on 3"?

yeap

QUOTE

Somebody makes adapters to put Boxster brakes on 3"?

who?

are boxsters aluminum?

QUOTE

are boxsters aluminum?

Yeah... they flex like crazy!

These still fit under 15" Fuch and the pad size is double a "M" caliper

OK, so is it just me or is this a sweet deal for a 5 bolt/brake upgrade ???
no rotors though....


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/911-914-914...1QQcmdZViewItem

sweet deal indeed!

QUOTE (rogergrubb @ Dec 1 2005, 12:01 AM)

OK, so is it just me or is this a sweet deal for a 5 bolt/brake upgrade ??? no rotors though.... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/911-914-914...1QQcmdZViewItem

I do believe that is Albert(o) on this board as Lagunero.............



Don't have images of "M", "A", 964 or 986 handy

holy crap slits, ...

you just gave me a crash course in what these brakes differences really are.

i always wondered if there was any BIG differences..

not just bolt spacing but swept area... 996's...

Mr. Grubb,

This is what it looks like!!!

Mar7ck

and this

and this

the end

Installing the Carrera calipers on today I noticed that they are damn close to the 320i BMW ones without the spacer. In fact really effin close!

I wouldn't bother using "M" calipers as they fall in between the Carrera/320i and the stocker in size.

VCI makes an adapter where you can use radial mount calipers on 3in or 3.5in mounts

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Dec 3 2005, 06:45 PM)

Installing the Carrera calipers on today I noticed that they are damn close to the 320i BMW ones without the spacer. In fact really effin close! I wouldn't bother using "M" calipers as they fall in between the Carrera/320i and the stocker in size.

M-calipers allow you to use a vented rotor, so they are infinately better than a BMW caliper.

It's all about the cooling.

Yeah, thats why I went to the Carrera calipers and the vented rotors but the 320i calipers look the exact same as the Porsche ones. Someone just has to source spacers as the BMW ones were WAY cheaper than the Carrera ones. But piston wise the BMW one and the Carrera are the same size, equals same force.
The "M" calipers are weenie compared to the BMW/Carrera calipers. Piston size equals more force to stop, even if you are using solid rotors.

QUOTE

The "M" calipers are weenie compared to the BMW/Carrera calipers. Piston size equals more force to stop, even if you are using solid rotors

Which ones lock up sooner?

The only testing I have done....
Ran the rebuild stock ones and could lock them up without too much problem, they did have some fade during AXing
The BMW ones were more solid feeling during hard braking and didn't fade during AXing or for track events
I'll see how the Carrera ones with the vented discs feel soon

Has anyone thought of using Wilwood. I think i'm heading that way, but not completely decided.

QUOTE (Howard R @ Dec 4 2005, 12:02 PM)

Has anyone thought of using Wilwood. I think i'm heading that way, but not completely decided.

i think Ron S did???

I have Wilwood Billet Superlites on my 914 originally I used a carrera rotor, but to increase thermal capacity I rebuilt the Wilwood to accept a 944T rotor. I also have the hardware ready to use a Wilwood or Coleman 1-1/4" rotor, just havent got around to installing the setup.

You can now get 6 piston Wilwood

In all the Wilwood brake set up is really good, and not really that expensive.