at this present moment, no. I have the Haynes manual and I found pin II on the relay board, so the yellow wire is connected. As soon as I get this running, I was going to go to radioshack to pick up some connectors and wire my fuel pump the *RIGHT* way.

b

following this troubleshooting guide for L-jet motors, I get to the part where it suggests to replace the dual relay...

is this a FLAPS part, or special order?

b

You should be able to test the relays themselves. There's nothing magic about them, they work just like other relays do.

dont make it so complicated in your mind.

to make it fire and start you need gas, air and spark.

You have spark.
you need fuel.

You can run the pump all the time , and it will last for a bit, but eventually it will burn out.

So for this test, jumper it so it is running and make sure you have fuel at the injectors, at the right time...

I take out both injectors from one side, put them in baby food glass jars, run the pump and turn the motor over...

You should get fuel in each jar...if not they are not getting the signal to fire...

it is an electrical signal of something like 3volts.

Again a test light will work here also.

If you find one is getting fuel and the other is not, switch them to make sure the injector is not clogged.

Make sure you have pressure at the injector as well.

Dont be looking for relays just yet.
As I recall they control the fuel injectors, so you need to determine which one is bad, if any.

Rich

Rich

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Dec 29 2005, 12:10 PM)

following this troubleshooting guide for L-jet motors, I get to the part where it suggests to replace the dual relay... is this a FLAPS part, or special order? b

I think it's a specific dual relay, last time I bought a new one it was $75.....

you should easily be able to duplicate the dual relay using the stock relay board or use 2 of the GM style square relays, I'd lean towards using the 2 GM square relays, just make sure you use insulated female spade terminals and crimp them good....GM type relay should be less than $10 each

it's pretty basic, AFM energizes 1 relay* which turns on the fuel pump...easy

the second relay gets energized via either from the 1st relay or the AFM as well which then supplies 12vdc to the injectors (the + goes thru the resistors before the injectors, very important to follow that)

*(without looking at the wiring diagram, not sure if it really supplies + or if it supplies ground to complete the circuit)

now the battery is dead.

this day is good.

b

Easy way to check if your injectors are opening/closing on an ljet before popping them off is to:

1. remove the distributer cap
2. make sure the points are closed
3. turn on the ignition
4. open and close the points (don't use a metal instrument..don't want to fry anything!)

By doing this, you should be able to hear the injectors opening/closing...you'll hear a noticble click at each one. This will tell you if you are getting juice to the injectors. If those are clicking...then you have a fuel distribution problem. Here I'd make sure you have oil the fuel lines hooked up in the right direction. I'd go look at mine but it's up in milwaukee and I'm in IN this week.

Jim

uh, houston, no power to the injectors.

b

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Dec 29 2005, 12:48 PM)

uh, houston, no power to the injectors. b

relay problem.....do you have power to the resistor pack?

I'm guessing no....

for testing ONLY......

you could run a 12vdc + to the resistor pack and fuel pump using a toggle switch (the toggle switch would "mimic" the AFM being opened and the relay circuit activated when flipped on)

EDIT!

no power to resistor pack.

now what? i'm going

b

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Dec 29 2005, 01:03 PM)

through which terminal.? the central one or ? b

yes, the central terminal of the resitor pack is 12vdc+, the other 4 wires go directly to the injectors

QUOTE (Mueller @ Dec 29 2005, 02:04 PM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Dec 29 2005, 01:03 PM) through which terminal.? the central one or ? b yes, the central terminal of the resitor pack is 12vdc+, the other 4 wires go directly to the injectors

no power at any of the terminals with key on.

is the relay dead?

b

Does the relay click when you turn the key on?

Is pin #85 grounded? (it must be for the dual relays to operate)

is the AFM open?

when the AFM opens, a microswitch completes the circuit which activates the 2 coils inside the dual relay, as soon as these coils activate, one give power to the fuel pump, the other one supplies power to the resistor pack.

You should be able to pop the cover off of the dual relay and see what happens when you have the key on and the AFM opens....

you can also manually over-ride the coils inside by pressing down on the lever on top of the coil

if its the brown wire, then yes its grounded. I just checked my mail

I hope this thing works, it looks so nice!!

b

I opened up the dual relay and manually engaged the contacts and the injectors clicked! So how do I get the computer to do this for me?

b

I open the AFM and nada...nothin.

Might as well be closed.

b

B,

Have you opened the PDF of the wiring diagram I sent you?

The dual relay is not that complicated.

Relay 1:

Feeds power to the resistor pack and to pin 10 of the ECU. The Power is supplied by th elarge red wire. The coil of the relay is energized (+12v) by the black coil wire that terminates at the dual relay.
________________________
Relay 2:

Feeds power to the fuel pump (Black/red wire), and feeds power to the Aux Air Valve.

The coil of this relay is energized in one of two ways:
With the key in the on position (relay 1 energized);

1) The flap in the air flow meter is slightly opened closing a switch. Power is fed from the output of relay #1 through the switch in the AFM and powers the coil for relay #2.

2) The starter is bumped (yellow wire energized). This will energize the coil on relay #2.

Without the ground for the dual relay, neither coil will operate as they share a common ground (according to the diagram).

I sure hope this helps.

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Dec 29 2005, 01:22 PM)

I open the AFM and nada...nothin. Might as well be closed. b

now you have to figure out if you are getting power to the AFM

okay...let me back up for a sec. I plugged the yellow wire coming off of the relay board plug fro L-jet into plug II, top right. When I started the car, it continued to start (without the key in the ign) until I pulled the yellow wire. Is it supposed to go into there.

b

QUOTE (Mueller @ Dec 29 2005, 02:30 PM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Dec 29 2005, 01:22 PM) I open the AFM and nada...nothin. Might as well be closed. b now you have to figure out if you are getting power to the AFM

i'm going to get my powerbook. one minutre and i'll give you instant results. Thank you guys for helping out a doofus who thought I could get this working in one day.

b

QUOTE

I plugged the yellow wire coming off of the relay board plug fro L-jet into plug II, top right. When I started the car, it continued to start (without the key in the ign) until I pulled the yellow wire. Is it supposed to go into there.

No, it's not supposed to do that....

I don't recall the numbering sequence of that 4-pin plug on the relay board.

i had it correct via the haynes manual.

I dunno.

No power to the AFM when powered on.

b

don't be discouraged...once you get the kinks worked out on an ljet...they are rock solid. Your vacuum hoses will be extremely important! You can double check the fuel lines and vacuum lines off of the tech forum on pelican..they have a really good diagram for this.

Do you get power at the AFM (pin 39) if you manually trip the relay?

im trying not to......

it helps having people that are willing to help tho

b

okay i think that if my battery wasnt borderline dead, i'd be off and running.

so i'll work on that.

b

no beans.

back to the drawing board.

b

You can get the fuel injectors to click when manually actuating the relay?

yep....click click click...it made me happy

it did this even when the key was off.

b

I suppose that we should start right there.

They should click even with the key off. (you get direct battery voltage from the large red tied to the battery)

So we know that the resistor pack, the injectors, and the wiring for that is OK.

To make the relay trip electrically, we need a ground at relay terminal (85) and power at terminal (86c)

Terminal (86c) is supposed to get power from the coil +12v [terminal (15)].

If you have power and ground respectively at these two relay terminals, the coil should be energized and the relay should trip.

Check this please.

it checks out. ground is on 85 and power is on 86c

it just wont start bc the battery is almost dead, but im off to correct this.


b

its off to be recharge, i'll update when it gets back.

Lots of good info here though, i'll print this out....



thx again

b

I'll try to help any way I can. I know that system works.

okay...

it fires.

wont idle and doesnt like to push over 3000...

I havent driven it yet.

if i do nothing, it runs for a second and then dies.

i re-wired the pump circuit, due to the fact that something in the "cockpit" was smoking

b

Excellent!

Now you must make sure ALL vacuum leaks are TOTALLY sealed up (even a leaky or loose oil filler cap can make them not run well).

Also you need to set timing and dwell fairly accurately. It will be best when you get all the FI components installed like the aux air regulator and the thermo time switch.

If you need more free advice, I'm full of it!

got a Q for the peanut gallery....

what's up with the generator light, it goes dim-bright-off-dim-dim-bright-off-dim every so often at completly random intervals.

john, thanks for your help.

oh...could this run too rich, since its on a 1.7 engine?

b

Way to go Britt,

You will love a solid well tuned FI car.

Good luck...

So, got heat yet??

Rich

I don't know if it would run too rich. It is supposed to measure airflow. I would assume that it should work easier with less volume. I just don't know all the dynamic differences between the two engines: Compression Ratio, cam specs, Cylinder Head Flowrate, etc......

Aren't you a young and budding Mechanical Engineer to be? (I thought I read that someplace) You should be able to reverse-engineer it and calculate all those things yourself. (right?)

Your alternator light sounds like it's not alternating as well as it should. Has the engine sat for some time before running? You may have crap on the brushes, the wiring may be corroded (check and clean all connections), the diodes may be failing, or the voltage regulator may be old. You may want to take it to a FLAPS that can do an alternator test on it to see if it is charging like it should or if you need a rebuilt alternator. Some FLAPS will do the test for free. Then you can decide if you need to replace an alternator or a voltage regulator, etc., etc.

just my 0.02

im working on it...

the big step here is to get the car off of the jackstands again, and on the road.

b

maybe i have the fuel pressure regulator backwards?

b

the way I have it, the OUTPUT or (back to tank) connection is off to the side of the unit, while the INPUT or from the fuel lines is connected to the end of the unit.

this unit is a vacuum adjustable fuel pressure regulator. I do have a djet one in there, should i swap them out or what?

sorry...slight hijack here... but i just bought a new dual relay, thinking that was the problem... but my engine still doesn't want to run.... can you fry a dual relay?? i put the new one in, and i turned the key on, and it clicked once... i left for a minute, and when i turned the key back on, it doesn't click anyone... before with the old relay, when i pulled that cap off of the AFM, and moved the contacts, the relay wouldn't click.... i am thinking it is a wiring problem... any thoughts?? Thanks

mine was all in the wiring...three hours ago i was sure i needed a new dual relay. i cleaned everything off and it runs like a charm now, kinda.

b

grasshopper,

You may want to start a new thread, but to answer your question, you can fry just about anything, but I believe that these dual relays are pretty hardy.

Do you have the factory wiring diagrams for the year of your L-Jet? (Those are a big help)

Do some searching in this thread and some others on this site and you will find some generic L-jet diagrams. That guy that makes and sells harnesses actually has 3 excellent hand sketches with wire numbers. With those and a factory diagram, it should be straight forward to troubleshoot.

I used the wire numbers from those hand sketches and labeled the factory diagram that I printed out. It made some sense out of Britt's problems.

Is your car originally L-Jet or is it a conversion? Did your car ever run correctly? I would consider starting your own thread to troubleshoot your specific problems.

just my 0.02

another thread would be a excellent idea...

Britt WOW I been off and missed a lot. OT and perhaps a little to late (ALTL?) but a box of Ljet stuff is headed your way.

well it seems like its stubling and rough running, but man is that timing window small....

right now it didnt even want to idle for more than one revolution...

its acting wierd. it seems like its running super lean...but its spitting out an INSANE amount of water, so it might be running rich? Gas is like three days old.

b

rich, thanks buddy. I have the plenum in a box for ya.

just need my car to work so i can take it to the store. I have like two more boxes to take too.

b

Have you double checked that the injector groups are correct? (could #3 & #4 or #1 & #2 be swapped) I recall that two of them had tan boots and the other two had black boots, but I don't recall which ones went where.

The other thing that I keep warning about is air leaks. You must get that thing sealed up tight or it will not run right. (Including the valve covers)

You asked about the fuel pressure regulator earlier. Have you checked your fuel pressure?