John's car is a 4 with carbs. But I know nothing of the motor internals or size.
His car belonged to Tom Provassi years ago. He bought it from Tom after Tom bought the Orange Crate.

I will have to ask him next time I see him. I guess KenH is thinking of a bigger motor with aftermarket fuel injection?

The new rules will see lots of folks doing upgrades to their cars. A lot of assumptions that the rules will remain in effect for many years, I guess.
I am still not convinced. Have you looked at the cars you will be competing against for next season in TT? Sorry, sometimes I can't help myself.

I would love to know more about the motor in Steve Neislony's car.

Competiton will have to wait. Sure, I'll run for time.
I don't think I can beat anybody, yet.

Steve runs carbs and race gas on a high compression 2.0.

I think there is a short a/x video in my blog if you want to see and here from the passenger seat.

I was *awful* and was using a handheld cam


KT

As far as upgrades, I have my dreams.

According to Albert he had stock cam on his 1.8 with his carbs. The car was marginally faster than my 1.8 with FI. Albert and I had very similar setups - stock 1.8 with KH headers. I only beat him when I switched to hoosiers and he was on Kuhmos. When he went to Hoosiers he usually beat me a by a couple hundreths. He mostly beat me with his driving however I think his car was just a little faster than my FI 1.8.

Trekkor you would probably know if Alberts carbed car was faster as you have riden in both cars.

I can't remember...

Both we're fast. A good example of two well prepared, good running cars with good drivers doing battle.

This is likely the best comparison we've discussed here.

Same cc's, on the same tires, at the same venue running within fractions of a second.

Good stuff.


KT

QUOTE (trekkor @ Jan 1 2006, 10:02 PM)

Will trade for carbs

ok, i'll be the first to ask this dumb question then ...

*if*, according to some "experts" here, carbs are just as good or (as most of you stated) even better than FI, why is it that newer cars *all* come with FI?
even the *sportscars* ...

why is it that the car industry claims better gas milage and increased HP on electronic FI cars due to better fuel control?
what do you know that they don't know?

and don't give me the "emission"
i'm not just talking emission-hell CA, but the rest of the world.

how many modern, new, competitive racecars run on carbs?

why aren't all cars still on carbs?

what am i missing?

Andy

Raby proved that EFI put out more horsepower than carbs on the same engine:

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/kitcarlson.htm


I think D-Jet on a stock engine versus carbs on a stock engine is a coin toss and mostly dependent on how well either fuel delivery system is running.

You can gain horsepower with carbs once you ditch the cam that was designed for D-Jet.

You can even gain more power with an EFI setup and the right cam.

As for the modern car argument. I won't get into that because these are not modern cars and they don't have modern F.I.

There are only a few people on this list that are running aftermarket F.I.
I've only heard of a couple success stories. Most are having problems or still working the bugs out.

The vast majority of the 914's still on the road with a stock motor are sporting the original F.I. bits.

Many hundreds ( 1000's? ) of owners have switched over to some form of carbs.

The Jake data quoted is for a 2500cc aftermarket F.I vs 44 IDF's. Interesting I'm sure, but not applicable to most 914 owners. ( the $15-20K factor )

this discussion was a stock 2.0 with D-jet F.I. vs Webers.

I guess the reason this subject comes up so often, is because there are so many problems with people's stock set-up. It can be frustrating trying to get it to run well.

New/reconditioned parts are pretty expensive.
Troubleshooting the issues can be tough. All of the help questions on this forum proves that.

KT

Modern EFI and 1974 EFI are two different animals almost as different as webers and djet.

Modern EFI is being monitored and adjusted hundreds of times per second, I doubt that is the situation with djet.
Modern EFI can be adjusted and modded with a computer program, can djet?
The issue is can webers (any carb) be used successfully with a stock cammed 2.0l motor.
I am talking across the board drivability not just idle, full throttle or something in between.

If someone can show me that a stock 2L can be just as tractable and drivable with no decrease in power or a modest increase in power, then I would consider switching to carbs now.
If not then I would wait to switch when I do a cam change and other tweeks.

lawrence's aub car is a carbd car with stock cam.

a very smootth driving car. great throttle response, good power.....

id venture to say the only thing it lost was a few mpg.... it was a well sorted setup with stock cam.

why do you want to ditch FI on a stock motor???? you wont *GAIN* anything without a hot cam.....designed for carbs....

but...whatever floats your boat....

That was the point of my initial query. do you gain anything by switching to carbs with a totally stock motor?
I guess the general feeling is that unless you change the cam you aren't going to gain any performance or drivability. And probably lose some MPG.

expereince with my freinds stock 1.7 was he had problems with the FI (electrical problems with old, bad wires) He switched to carbs, and got horrible mileage, a higher top end, with a big loss in botom end power. After a while i convinced him to fix the FI, we did a rebuild of the harness, tested all components, and put it back on, the car ran great, mileage went back up to about 30 mpg, and it had power at low rpm again.

No we did not optimize the carbs, maybe with re-jetting and such some problems could have been solved, but fixing the FI was easier, cheaper, and gave better results on a stock 1.7 engine. good luck

I think the only gain in the carbs vs Djet debate is reliabilty. My car is a 2056 with DRLA 40's on it with a stock replacement Web cam. It runs great and it is very reliable. I spent some time sorting out jets and vent size and sure it sputters on cold start but once it is warmed up it runs great.

I have all of the parts to convert it back to Djet but I fear 30 year old rudimentary injection reliability problems. How many posts are there about whats wrong with my Djet?

"It won't idle"

"It wont start"

"It bucks & misses"

"Where can I get a new MPS"

"It stranded me"




I am still waiting for Kitcarson.

well the deal with D-jet is that most systems are 30 years old. It's indeed a very well designed system, and for a insanely simple system, it works very well. Problems arise when the engine is upgraded, or when the MPS diapragm breaks...other than that it works well for stockish engines....

b

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jan 2 2006, 07:56 PM)

why do you want to ditch FI on a stock motor???? you wont *GAIN* anything without a hot cam.....designed for carbs....

The thing I gained was a running car by switching to carbs w/ stock cam. I dont know for sure if my FI was bad, but it was my descision and I wasnt about to pull the engine apart a second time to put a different cam in. I'll save that for the next rebuild.

Welby's piont is the only point for switching. If your fighting a D- jet, L -jet problem and can't find the source of it carbs are the light and, the way to usage of your teener.
:PRMAGRIN: Joe

Thanks for the replies.
This is another one of those topics like the 4vs6 debate, evidently.

Carbs have their place in our hobby just like some other mods that some folks make to their cars and others only shake their heads and wonder why!

That is the great thing about these little cars. They have so many ways they can be modded and still be a 914. And as always...to each his own.

I guess a switch to carbs will wait until I rebuild the motor with some hotter internals.
As long as I have a stock motor and the EFI is functioning, I have seen nothing here to convince me to switch at this time.

Every engine is different..... Honestly I have tested a few engine combos that made MORE power with Carbs.

It's all in the combo.

Well there you have it...


Jake , just tell us if you can make a stock FOUR run better on Webers than the D-jet. Please.

thanks


KT

From what I recall, most wabers are jetted far too rich for smaller fours like a 1.7 up to a 2.0. You can bolt them on and they will run, it will just eat up fuel like it's going out of style.

When optimized I'm willing to bet you can get more power out of the carbs. The power band might be higher but that's okay with me. I like driving at 3.500rpm

Oh yeah, Webers are eye candy too! For me Djet doesn't do very much. Now TPI, that is an awsome looking FI system.

Rob

On pg #10 of Haynes, you can see the motors listed and the HP breakdown by cc's.

The 1.8 was available a factory option with dual-single Solex 40's.

Two HP rating's are listed, 76 and 85...who's who?
Differant cam or no?
Was there more than one cam offered on any of the stock motors?

I need to know


KT

From what I remember, the carb'd motors did have a different cam.

Or, maybe I'm just telling you what you want to hear...

Tom

I'm looking at the book. It looks like the EC motor has 7.3:1cr 76hp @ 4800 rpm and the AN, 8.6:1cr 85hp @ 5000rpm

Looks to me like the carbed motor was European only. It reqired 98octane fuel. Acording to haynes the rest is the same... so yes a pair of Little little 1bbl 40mm solexes make considerable more power than the stock Ljet. Valve timing is the same. I realy doubt it has more lift.

There you go, carbs are better... even little ity bity 40mm solexes....lol

-Rob

Maybe that is the problem, folks are using too large carbs. Especially when they do not have the knowledge or parts to rejet the 40s. Maybe those tiny little Solexs are a better match for our motors than the webers that everyone seems to want or need.

QUOTE (Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Jan 3 2006, 10:13 PM)

Maybe that is the problem, folks are using too large carbs. Especially when they do not have the knowledge or parts to rejet the 40s. Maybe those tiny little Solexs are a better match for our motors than the webers that everyone seems to want or need.

its all in the combo according to jake...

like i said. lawrence's 1.7 was PERFECTLY jetted. no stumble stutter etc.... just prolly a mpg or 2 less than djet fi...

its not the carb...its the jetting that gives carbs a bad name....

do it once...do it right

AA

Combination as in which carb not just the jetting. Venturis and jetting, overall flow of air and fuel.
Just like a holley 600 vs a holley 650 on a GTO or Mustang, with a big block.

My 2110 VW motor with the dual-single 34 ICT Webers was pretty good when I was a 17 year old.

I was pretty much a "slap it on and go" kind guy back then ( I still am a little bit...ahem ) So no attention to the jetting was paid.
The carbs came off my 1600cc motor.
I had the motor built to short block using the STOCK CAM. I assembled and ran the motor in my Baja bug and then my '62 crew cab for about five thousand miles before I sold it all off. That thing really pulled.

I bought a Ghia with a 1776cc and dual singles. On a Engle 120 cam...Not stock, but fun...Not a 914, so here I am.

Doesn't somebody have the stock FOUR cam data?

My guess is that they *all* use the same one...My guess.


We'll know soon, I'm sure of that.


KT

On my first 914 I had a 2056 with a big cam, 45 dellortos and some heads with big valves, light flywheel and balancing. Carbs were great under most all conditions until I blew the engine up.

I had it rebuilt and the mechanic would only do relatively stock engine. 2056, stock cam, and 36mm dellortos. It ran like complete shit, I worked with him for about 6 months to get it running right and it never did.

so where are we?
Any other ideas?

How about you professionals out there. What has been your experiences along these lines?

If the factory infact, built 914s with EFI and Carbs did they only do the induction or did they make changes internally to make the car more drivable with one or the other?

This must have been a Europe only option.

Working...

If there is a CR difference of 1.3 between a factory carbed car and a FI one then there is more than just an intake and a pair of carbs difference.

up until recently, Jake used only carbs on his motors..

Now that he has found a good FI system that he can tune, he loves FI...

I think that SirAndy hit the nail on the head...
Modern cars use FI because it is more precise and can be specifically tuned for each motor...

Djet/Ljet are purpose built and specifically tuned for these motors...no VE changes are acceptable..

Carbs offer some tuning options that you cannot get from djet/ljet.

Though there are less and less proffesionals that can tune dual webers correctly, there are lots more of them that can tune a PEFI system perfectly...

So, do you do your own work, or do you bring it somewhere to have it tuned?

If you like to play, carbs are for you.

I put dual 40mm carbs on a 1600 vw motor...it took some time, I worked with the great guys at aircooled.net and the car now runs as good as its gonna...
You really need to warm it up, and the MPG suffers on such a small motor..

But, that is what the kid wanted, he likes dual carbs, he loves the sound...
Now with the prices of fuel, he wants a FI system...

I would say if you have a working FI system, dont change...if you have working carbs or a desire for carbs, go for it...they are fun, they are easy to tune if you get the basic concepts down...

Just err on the small side for jets and venturis and you will be alot happier...smaller venturis help alot more than you would think..

Rich

The only specs I can find for any 914 cam happens to be the valve timing, which is listed as being the same for all 914 type4s. If any one happens to have better data, by all mean.

Intake opens @ 12* BTDC
Intake closes @ 42* ABDC
Exhaust opens @ 43* BBDC
Exhaust closes @ 4* ATDC

Dan,

I know that Albert's 2.0L was *not* running a stock cam. I'm not sure about his 1.8. Albert told me he was running a webcam in the 2.0. He did not tell me which grind.

When I was looking at cams for a carbed 4, I came to the conclusion that a webcam 86b/163 was the cam of choice for autocross (good low-end torque, sacrifice some at the top) and an 86c was the cam of choice for TT (less at the low end, more at the top).

----Bill

I'm surprised no one has the cam answer...
All these guru's, pros and builders and nothing?

Should be pretty simple. Do they all use the same cam or don't they?


KT

QUOTE (trekkor @ Jan 5 2006, 05:31 PM)

I'm surprised no one has the cam answer... All these guru's, pros and builders and nothing?

that's probably because all the "gurus" have stopped reading this thread a month ago ...

Andy

It may be one of life's great mysteries


KT

QUOTE (trekkor @ Jan 5 2006, 08:31 PM)

I'm surprised no one has the cam answer... All these guru's, pros and builders and nothing? Should be pretty simple. Do they all use the same cam or don't they? KT

you are stepping into an area that the proffesionals make a living at.

The heads and valve train are where the power is on these motors, and as we have all seen, if you have the valves adjusted correctly, your car runs perfect.

I would say that there are alot of answers to the same problem...

I was reading the ecellence article about an orange 914 with a 2.7 liter /4 that made similar HP and torque to a 2270

All in the heads...bore and stroke are pretty straight forward, but you are asking the same question here that has been asked before and on lots of boards....

If you would like a good answer, I would suggest that you purchase a valve train setup from Jake, you will learn your answer then...

Or, buy several grinds and try a few...

Rich

That was not the question.

The question was do factory carb equipped car use the same cam as the EFI cars. If in fact the factory had a carb option.

QUOTE (Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Jan 5 2006, 06:58 PM)

That was not the question. The question was do factory carb equipped car use the same cam as the EFI cars. If in fact the factory had a carb option.

want it EURO 1.8's had dual solexes? single or dual barrel 40's iirc....

I'm not asking for trade secrets.

Just looking for a simple answer.

In the Performance Products catalog you can buy a new stock cam, 70-76 ( no specs given )

If you order an aftermarket grind, the specs are front and center

KT

QUOTE (trekkor @ Jan 5 2006, 05:31 PM)

Do they all use the same cam or don't they?

Tuna's site says that the euro AN case 1.8 come with dual 40s and made 85 hp compared to a US 1.8 with 76 hp, BUT the euro model has 8.6:1 compression and the US model has 7.3:1.

Read that however you want.

Yep. they had domed 93mm pistons! Jake has a set I think

QUOTE

Read that however you want.

Either you don't know or don't want to tell...

Not to be confused with "don't ask, don't tell" in any way


KT

I bumped a thread on STF and Jake promised to use his new tool (cam profiler) to reveal all there is to know about stock cams.

And the answer is?

Drumroll please.......

QUOTE (Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Dec 30 2005, 01:28 AM)

So there is a lot of difference of opinion. With a totally stock 2L engine including ignition, cam etc do carbs work effectively? Yes More noticeable power? Not really, though it sounds cool Drivability? As long as you warm it up its fine MPG? A few less MPG Worth the hassle? Well if your FI works, its not worth it...If you have a broken FI system and a set of carbs laying around, yes its worth it..If you have a broken FI system and would ahve to either buy parts for the FI or buy a total weber setup, its not worth it.. You can get used MPS's from Geoff for a reasonable price, and the rest of it can be had either used or new. let the games begin! Lets hear it.

ok, answer to the initial questions...

Web cam Stock FI (it is very close to the original)

Lift 426
Duration 262
Duration @.050 224
Grind Number 73

Good overall power for engines with stock fuel-injection. Designed for mechanical lifters.

Web cam basic street Cam for carbs

423
270
234
86

Good overall power for carburated mech. street engines. RPM range 2500-5500. The perfect street cam!

I would comment that the lift is less for the carbed cam, and the duration is just a tad longer..

435
290
252
86a

Strong mid range and top end for high performance mech. street engines. Valve springs recommended.

I am noticing that the lift and duration are considerably more here..

The Web cam "Stock" grind is based from a stock bus cam with solid lift.

The new cam doctor will be here in about two weeks and I'll use these stock cams to learn the new software a bit...

I'll give ya 5 pages of specs on each cam

BTW all those single pattern, non split duration cams catalogged are power robbers and gas burners....

My observation would be that is you wanted to duplicate the "carbed" cam that webcam sell, not jake, then you might be able to do it with different rockers...

You could increase the lift by playing around with those to create a stock engine that works well with carbs...possibly...

Rich