So there is a lot of difference of opinion.
With a totally stock 2L engine including ignition, cam etc
do carbs work effectively?
More noticeable power?
Drivability?
MPG?
Worth the hassle?

let the games begin!

Lets hear it.

Stock cam + carbs =

Really worn out FI, replaced with carbs, can be an improvement, even with the stock cam.

Mark,
That is exactly the information I have gotten from another very reputable source.
Yet others seem to feel otherwise.

stock cam+ carbs= sucks
more hp=not!
mpg=not!

sure it will run but suffers in the everywhere except partthrottle

the cam isn't for carbs

I'll concede, that if you take a SERIOUS amount of time and $ to set up the carbs (I'm talking WAY more than main and idle jets, here) you could get them to work pretty well.

I would question the cam in any "stock" engine that runs great with carbs. Call me a cynic.

Unless you don't have first hand experience, keep the barfing to a minimum

Albert Correia was running Webers on his 2.0 early last season...I don't know about the guts, but he was fast and always beat just about everybody on the a/x track.

This isn't the whole story though. He broke that motor and still wanted to play.

He literally slapped the same carbs on an old multi-year stored stock 1.8 and still wastes the field.

http://lpr.pca.org/ax/2005/lprax6/lprax6.htm

Given the chance, I will put dual 40's on my old 2.0 FOUR and run it hard.


KT

What cam would you suggest in an otherwise stock 2L with carbs?

Ask Jake as he has several cams for carbs. Depends on where you wantthe powerband.

QUOTE

Unless you don't have first hand experience, keep the barfing to a minimum

Well the stock cam engines I've had carbs on, I can definitely say first hand that they ran like crap.

QUOTE

He literally slapped the same carbs on an old multi-year stored  stock 1.8 and still wastes the field.

If we're talking about first hand knowledge, you know first hand it was a stock 1.8?



Dan, what are you really trying to do here? Start a bloodbath?

That was the general Idea Mark.
Kind of like the 4v6 debate.

I agree that unless you are there seeing an engine built you never really know what is in it.

Not to call anyone a "fibber" but we have all had occasion to run across cars that run way to well for what they are supposed to be. Yes the driver has a lot to do with it but so does the way the car is set up (including the motor and tranny)

comments?

Flames?

Keep it cool, boys

All I'm saying is this: A well tuned stock F.I. will run very well. My 2.0 FOUR was proof of that.
Also, a well tuned carbed motor on a stock cam will also run very well.

Well tuned is the key here.

I believe what Albert told me was true and I have ridden in that car and watched him run many, many times.

It's no secret and no dispute that a carbed motor will run even better on a aftermarket grind.

I have first hand experience with 40 Dells on a stock 2.0l.

I hated it so much I figured out how to put the Djet back on and make it work 6 years ago.

Thinking more about Alberts 1.8 with carbs (40 IDFs I'm assuming). In a racing situation the large intakes will favor the top end and the timing can be adjusted for full throttle power. But I'm doubtful that that same engine would do well around town.

On a daily driver, yeah, it could be a bummer.

My experience is based on foot to the floor , dodging the cones.

Trying to get to work, in the cold, before the sun is up everyday, I got nuthin'



KT

stock engine + carbs = less power and much worse gas mileage.

that is compared to a well running stock FI. of course carbs will be better than a FI that isn't running. duh!

stock cam sucks for carbs. as i said, you'll have less power and worse gasmileage.

now, if you put a more agressive aftermarket cam in there, carbs can *really* wake up your engine. big time.

bottom line, if you want to go carbs, you'll have to split the case and add a carb-friendly cam.
Andy

My 73 2.0 had 40idfs installed by the PO ....it was the worst running automobile that I have ever owned .....so bad in fact that I toyed with selling the car although it did make great backfiring sounds....no one could ever get the car to run right,including a local Porsche 4-cam (expert)...The po had saved the FI system so I had it reinstalled by ejm .....car is now a pleasure to drive great fun......Forget the carbs they are the pits.

Ditch the stock FI, sell your carbs and buy a Megasquirt system... Duh!



I had a 2056 that had a stock cam and 40 IDF's, it ran OK - but I had no baseline to compare it to. That car would bark the tires in 2nd gear, so it seemed pretty stout.

Tom

As usual, lot's of different opinions. So here is another.

I put a set of new 40 IDF's with a Facet fuel pump on a stock 2.0 and it ran fine. It had about the same power, and gas mileage, while not as good as with FI, was not bad. It still got 30+ mpg on the highway. This was a set of Webbers from CB, back when they were Claude's Buggies, with their recommended jetting for a 2.0 T4. I drove it like that for about 6 months before splitting the case and putting in a mild performance cam from Garretson, some head work, balance job and a few other mods. That did wake it up and it ran well like that for years. Oh, and it still got 30+ mpg on the highway.

When I hear stories that you can't make a stock T4 run with carbs, it makes me think that there are other issues involved. Just my opinion...

what do you consider "less power and much worse mileage"? i've had to fill up no more often than other fi running cars. i get 27mpg during moderate freeway running. so fi cars get around 30? that's less than 50 miles per a 16 gallon tank fill. big deal.

"...no one could get the car to run right..." unfortunate.

my car runs just fine around town. in fact, it ran more than just fine stuck in santa barbara traffic during the terrible afternoon commute traffic.

my car has had no carb issues during my drives to california. 3 times. twice for the classics and one solo trip to arcata. not to mention more trips to portland than i can remember. whistler...i had no problem keeping up with other members with 2.0s and various fi setups on the flat ground nor climbing numerous grades. in fact...never mind.

i don't trailer my car. PERIOD!

a dual webered engine that sneezes, pops back through the carbs, goes BANG out the exhaust on decel, has other issues than the webers.

the garage is littered all the time with people having fi problems and it seems they are always chasing one damn thing or another.

i just chuckle to myself everytime the weber debate surfaces.

k

I'm with Kevin.
:PERMAGRIN: Joe

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Dec 30 2005, 11:09 AM)

what do you consider "less power and much worse mileage"? i've had to fill up no more often than other fi running cars. i get 27mpg during moderate freeway running. so fi cars get around 30? that's less than 50 miles per tank full. big deal. "...no one could get the car to run right..." unfortunate. my car runs just fine around town. in fact, it ran more than just fine stuck in santa barbara traffic during the terrible afternoon commute traffic. my car has had no carb issues during my drives to california. 3 times. twice for the classics and one solo trip to arcata. not to mention more trips to portland than i can remember. whistler...i had no problem keeping up with other members with 2.0s and various fi setups on the flat ground nor climbing numerous grades. in fact...never mind. i don't trailer my car. PERIOD! a dual webered engine that sneezes, pops back through the carbs, goes BANG out the exhaust on decel, has other issues. the garage is littered all the time with people having fi problems and it seems they are always chasing one damn thing or another. i just chuckle to myself everytime the weber debate surfaces. k

All I can say is the car runs so well now with the stock FI system that I can see no advantage to using carbs and plenty of disadvantages.....I suppose if anyone likes the boy racer look of those Webers he can talk himself into thinking that it is a great setup...just my opnion.

Not a 914, but an air-cooled 2110cc with a stock cam.
This is what I had in a Baja bug back in the 80's.
Ran dual Weber 34 ICT's.
No problems at all. Loved doing fast hillclimbs, three wheel offs and such.
Going from a 1600cc to a 2110cc was really good.
Ran the same carbs on both motors, too.

That's why when Albert went from a 2.0 to a 1.8 with the same carbs sucessfully, it was no surprise to me that it ran so well.

I don't know why I feel this way, carbs are just more fun to me.

KT

"pfierb"- Comments like that only get people on the defensive and really don't add to the converstion.

my suggestion is that you edit that post-


KT

for heavens sakes i'm not suggesting everyone dump their fi setups and install carbs. what i am saying is, the conversion, poperly done, can result in a good running car. power loss . i'll keep waiting for someone to show the dyno results reflecting the major hp gain going back to fi on a stock engine.

"boy racer look"? please be more specific. what is the longest road trip (without a AAA or assistance call) you have done? the proof is in the driving. do 2300+ miles in a long weekend and get back to me. i need little convincing and don't bother editing your post on my account. you would have to try much harder than that to incite me.

k

Not stock , 1.8 , I will fire up TODAY.
Original 1.7
Lots of head work, 34 ICTS,.
Call me racer boy if ya wanna, I like carbs.

we boy racer LOSERS need some hats with a weber embroidered on them. i would wear mine sideways with the tag still hanging on it.

k

Having a carbed car that runs is much better than spending Thousends on a D- Jet that dose not....
:PERMAGRIN: Joe

Not trying to incite anyone nor am going to edit my post... that is just the way I feel about carbs on a 914-4... Had Webers on a couple of Alfa Guilias and they were wonderful but not for me on a 914....my opinion and I am entitled to it. Wouldn't drive any car 2300 miles on a long weekend.

I'm working on a 2.0 carb conversion with stock cam. I chose to go with Dual Weber 40's and a CB deluxe linkage. Consulted with John at Aircooled.net, and he recommended 32mm venturis, and some other jetting options (specific to where you live and the type of driving you will be doing).

The veredict is not in yet... but I think it will be running soon.

carbs SUCK
fi BLOWS

there you go, i said it ...
Andy

Thanks Andy

I was waiting for that from someone!

QUOTE (Joe Sharp @ Dec 30 2005, 08:35 AM)

Having a carbed car that runs is much better than spending Thousends on a D- Jet that dose not.... :PERMAGRIN: Joe

who all all these fools spending thousands of dollars on FI?

I thought Webers are now made of unobtainium.....

Kevin's car runs great, no problems when I test drove it. I had carbs for 2 years and got sick of the cold starts and waiting for them to warm up, (no chokes). FI was in a box so I reinstalled it and figured out how to tune it on my own before Brad Anders site was around. Djet is pretty simple and MPS's do fail after 30 years of use! just like carb linkage wears out, throttle shafts wear out etc.....

The dyno stuff I have seen shows FI has more torque down low over carbs due to better mix control.

People - Please realize this...

When someone says that their car "feels" faster due to carbs, or FI... We are talking about a "butt" dyno. There is NO way anyone can really tell whether you're picking up or loosing Xhp at Yrpm. It just can't be done.

You stick two motors, one with stock FI and the other with a PROPERLY tuned set of webers, and you'll see probably the same peak HP - maybe more with carbs since they can flow well over stock D-Jet. But, you'll find a low end loss with carbs due to fuel/air mixture issues.

A well tuned FI system will beat webers on a cold startup, maybe a few more MPG, and mid-throttle transistions, but a tuned set of Webers will run for a LONG time without having to mess with 'em.

Plus, Webers sound hella-cool at full-tilt boogie.

We're splitting hairs here.

And for me, I consider boy-racer when I have my Gateway 675E laptop in the passenger seat tuning my FI... So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Tom

I approve of this thread...


KT

Thought you might like it Trekkor.
Got the idea from one of your threads the other day.
I was expecting a little more drama...

QUOTE

one of your threads the other day

Which one?



KT

Don't recall offhand.

But I thought it sounded like a good thought provoking topic.

I've thought about changing my 40 webers for Djet, but then again I REALY like carbs. Sure, they can be a total pain in the Arsch but so can anything else. I know carbs, that's what I have, and I like it.

Perhaps tuning webers is becoming a black art? Is that why a lot of people seem to hate them so?

Does anyone have hard data comparing a FI motor to a dual carbed one?

I know my 914 hauls ass when compared wilth my '72 type1. It also seems faster than a freind's old 1.8 914.

-Rob

As usual, my standard offer of my complete D-jet sysem for your complete dual 40 Weber set-up is still on the table.


KT

Never ran carbs on a /4 so I don't know, but if you run the wrong ones on a /6 it sucks... (BTW, Triple throat 40mm Webers may be for sale soon)...

That's it? Thread over?

More ranting, please


KT

progressives are awesome.

there we go.

b

I have a perfectly tuned FI system, its fine.
BUT
If it werent for the re-classing penalty I would switch to dual webers in a nanosec....

they are cooler sounding, and alot more fun to tune that this archaic FI system with all the limitations...

It is a 34 year old car...Carbs are appropriate and an easy way to liven up the motor with a different cam.

You can get 140 hp with carbs...not with Djet...at least no one has yet...

So I would do carbs...even if I have to wait...
I dont wait for the volvo, or any of my other cars...but I cant run the twisties with those...

I think carbs make the anticipation even better when you have to wait five minutes to beat the snot out of your car...

If it was a daily driver I would say FI is the way to go.
If its a toy, a fun toys to beat on, not a concourse car...I would say carbs are the most fun for the buck...as long as you can tune them yourself.

I agree with an earlier post...if your car is bucking and spitting, you may have other problems...

If you set up a set of carbs correctly, you will have a great running car.

Rich

It would be cool if someone had a very good running FI system. Dyno that...

Then put on the Webers and after tuning them precisely, dyno that, too.

I'd love to see the results of that test.


KT

That is kind of what I was hoping to hear from some one Trekkor.

Up until then it is mostly conjecture... be it personally informed or otherwise.

I have it directly from an old school Porsche mechanic that the carbs do not do well with a stock cam motor.
Yes, you can make it run...but is it really better than the FI or does it just sound better at some operating parameters.
According to my source it is very tough to get the carbs to run efficiently at all parameters with a stock cam.
That is why until I change the cam I will probably stay with the stock FI

I think Jake has done this......

QUOTE

I think Jake has done this......

I think that data *may* be secret

Let's have some of that cam data, eh?
lift and duration of the popular carb cams compared to stock.

No? Didn't think so...

Will trade for carbs



KT

You will have to have your clearance checked Trekkor



Any gurus out there with the latest information that is not top secret for eyes only?

I have switched to carbs with a stock FI cam. The only thing besides the carbs that isnt "stock" is the euro pistons. I think I have plenty of power and gas mileage isnt bad but I have calculated that out.

Dan, what is John Seidell running? I can't remember.


KT

( that stick hurts, )