Where can I get some blank head castings? I've got an NHRA friend who thinks he can make some power. And I'd rather not buy a whole block of aluminum.

Here

I believe they are based on bus castings.

I meant raw castings. No holes in 'em yet. I'll put my own holes in there.

Nope. Get out the welder, make your own castings, or billet.

Unless aircooled technology would sell me a raw casting for cheap. The plan was to not spend much more than a block of aluminum but not have to cut fins with a slot cutter endlessly.

QUOTE (McMark @ Mar 21 2006, 12:06 AM)

Nope. Get out the welder, make your own castings, or billet.

Welder? To "make" your own castings?!? Well. I HAVE been meaning to set up a foundry. And one of the guys I went to Vocational school with JUST got his own house.

What holes were you referring to, that you would cut yourself?

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Mar 21 2006, 12:09 AM)

QUOTE (McMark @ Mar 21 2006, 12:06 AM) Nope.  Get out the welder, make your own castings, or billet. Welder? To "make" your own castings?!? Well. I HAVE been meaning to set up a foundry. And one of the guys I went to Vocational school with JUST got his own house.

As in weld up the other castings and re-cut.

Hmmm.... I guess that works in a pinch. The problem is that cast aluminum is an inconsistant material, and that makes it hard to get great weld penetration, like what you will want/need on the combustion chamber.

ANYWAY... My buddy wants to completely revamp the flow angles. So it needs to start as a solid piece of material anyway.

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Mar 21 2006, 12:15 AM)

ANYWAY... My buddy wants to completely revamp the flow angles. So it needs to start as a solid piece of material anyway.

you are talking billet here anyway.
you would have to weld up fins in a casting to put your holes where you want them and still have wall thickness.
most castings are near net shape to avoid having to machine in the first place.

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Mar 21 2006, 03:15 AM)

The problem is that cast aluminum is an inconsistant material, and that makes it hard to get great weld penetration

What a load of BS! That just tells me you don't know squat about welding aluminum.

Ask him how fast he can go in his 914 in 3rd gear.

You're NHRA friend better have plenty of patience.. My Billet head program just went past 3.5 years of development and still has flaws that are being worked out.

Finding the PROPER alloy of Billet was the hardest part, by far. It takes a lot of machine time to whittle it into a head and more time to test it, and I'll bet you 500 bucks that you WILL NOT get it right the first time.

As for the new castings, we have to buy the heads 100% complete from Spain to get them, the factory finishes them up so a blank casting is out of the question- I have been trying to persuade the factory to do that for 5 years now. We take the new castings, rip out the valves, guides, seats and etc and start from scratch with our own components as the factory components are horrible.

This can all be done and we have done it, BUT you better be ready to swallow a lot of cash to get something that even functions correctly, much less runs cool enough. Thermal conductivity of different alloys is drastically different and you'll find this out very quickly.

A good welder can do anything with a head casting, proper preheating and post cooling are mandatory and it takes experience to know what "proper" is for these heads...

every passageway is cast in , and things kind of "line up" . best wishes on your wheel re-invention.

k

I figured this would get entertaining. I was kind of hoping for billet titanium heads.

Dave

LOL.....

I NEVER try to tell someone that something cannot be done, because I HATE it when people tell me that and usually it makes me forge forward with no sense at all, just to prove them wrong..

I just try to share what I have experienced and tell guys it may not be as simple as it seems and could entail a hell of a lot more work that anticipated.

It is also expensive, even if you have a full machine shop at your disposal.

I'd see if Mueller can cast up some new castings for ya in his backyard operation....

figuring out the core placement/index. the void type, not the head blank. now, which is the cope and which is the drag?

k

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Mar 21 2006, 07:28 AM)

LOL..... I NEVER try to tell someone that something cannot be done, because I HATE it when people tell me that and usually it makes me forge forward with no sense at all, just to prove them wrong.. I just try to share what I have experienced and tell guys it may not be as simple as it seems and could entail a hell of a lot more work that anticipated. It is also expensive, even if you have a full machine shop at your disposal.

I like Jake's perspective on things.

And I can't do Ti heads. Ti doesn't transfer heat, so it would have a problem with cooling until the heat would build up locally in the combustion chamber and start the thing on fire.

I've had enough problem with the Ti connecting rods. No pictures, but four are already in an engine. Hush hush.

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Mar 21 2006, 08:09 AM)

I'd see if Mueller can cast up some new castings for ya in his backyard operation....

Since when is that funny? That may be what I have to do.


It is really too bad that Jake's French company won't sell blanks. I'll bet it causes all sorts of problems for him. And it will me.

Even if I had a casting with the fins taken out of it would save 30-45 minutes of actual run time. And plenty more time setting and programming. Right, Jake?

Did you look at the pics of his furnace? Thats why its so funny.

You can buy new oem 2.0l heads from PP.

yep. WOW!!! only $1317.25 a pop for bare ones.

k

QUOTE

yep. WOW!!! only $1317.25 a pop for bare ones.

They better be selling ALL of them very fast, or they'll be sitting on the shelves indefinately...

Spending 1300 bucks for a caswting that still has the same issues with spark plug cracks really isn't that smart...

You will all be amazed come the middle of May.

i bet your new heads would work swell on a 2056 jake. again, that's the bare price. throw stock valves, springs, keepers, shipping, etc, into the the mix and you'd be well over $1.5k, EACH!!!. fmtt.

k

I have a couple of sets of junk heads Mueller can have to melt down..

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Mar 21 2006, 09:31 AM)

Did you look at the pics of his furnace? Thats why its so funny. You can buy new oem 2.0l heads from PP.

hey now !!!!!

I never claimed to be a professional

QUOTE

figuring out the core placement/index. the void type, not the head blank. now, which is the cope and which is the drag?

lost foam would take care of some of those problems...too bad it's too expensive for us mere mortals

Lost foam intake manifold

All you need is a 3D-CAD drawing of the head...now where are my calipers??? hahahaha

then you have to fab up a core box to make the cores in. when your neighbors call the epa will we see a "furnace" for sale in the classifieds?

k

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Mar 21 2006, 10:25 AM)

then you have to fab up a core box to make the cores in. when your neighbors call the epa will we see a "furnace" for sale in the classifieds? k

ROFL kevin!!!

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Mar 21 2006, 10:25 AM)

then you have to fab up a core box to make the cores in. when your neighbors call the epa will we see a "furnace" for sale in the classifieds? k

to quote Oddball:

QUOTE

Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

Who the F%#@ is Oddball. I've cast gold alloy with lost wax. Not exactly foundry size though.

Hey Mike start with something easy like a belt buckle. I know a part I'd like to see. Those silly things that mount the visors to the windsheild frame. The plastic sucks after 30 years.

Dave

QUOTE (DNHunt @ Mar 21 2006, 10:53 AM)

Who the F%#@ is Oddball. You have never seen Kelly's Heros??? I've cast gold alloy with lost wax. Not exactly foundry size though. Hey Mike start with something easy like a belt buckle. I know a part I'd like to see. Those silly things that mount the visors to the windsheild frame. The plastic sucks after 30 years. Dave I have thought about that part, it would have to be a really nice surface finish if one was to leave them bare or want to polish them.... trust me, I plan on starting off with something dirt simple.....

......

QUOTE (DNHunt @ Mar 21 2006, 09:53 AM)

Who the F%#@ is Oddball. I've cast gold alloy with lost wax. Not exactly foundry size though. Hey Mike start with something easy like a belt buckle. I know a part I'd like to see. Those silly things that mount the visors to the windsheild frame. The plastic sucks after 30 years. Dave

Maybe you can tell Mueller what that molding plastic stuff is dentists use to make molds of people teeth when you make a new crown. Self hardening in 5 minutes.
Like stuff would be the hot ticket to make part molds that you could use in the lost wax process.


I admire Mueller trying out the casting process, I might try this in Suriname where there are not effin rules. Hell, there are hardly any police for that matter. Lots of small casting equipement around as there are 300 jewlery shops due to the gold rush.

not trying to be neg mike, sorry. i have a little bit of casting production experience. there's lots to consider (as i'm sure you're discovering).

k

How long did you do that anyway, Kevin??

6 years. combo of shake out, molding, furnace operator, prelim qc.

k

6 years....then you got burned out?

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Mar 21 2006, 11:30 AM)

6 years. combo of shake out, molding, furnace operator, prelim qc. k

while I have never done the casting process myself (melting, pouring, being a sand crab and what not), I have designed parts to be cast (for work) and have visited and dealt with a few of the foundrys in the area (too f'n hot, there is no way I'd want to work in a foundry unless it's 30° outside )

i'm sure I'll make some mistakes and it'll be a learning process, but I look forward to it

Muller said:

QUOTE

too f'n hot,

Last fall I had a short project at a place that made silica glass in a continuous batch process 1800 degrees at the furnace draw, a bit cooler as it fed into the molds, but still toasty warm. This is about a 4" diameter ribbon of glass
Harvey

QUOTE (Mueller @ Mar 21 2006, 09:16 AM)

Lost foam intake manifold All you need is a 3D-CAD drawing of the head...now where are my calipers??? hahahaha

So that's why you were so interested in that 3-D printing service! Molds. Would that be "lost plastic stuff" casting?

Not to mention the electrical requirements to smelt aluminium. One of my professors worked for ALCOA, he is always talking about how how big a pain in the ass it is to melt aluminium.

QUOTE (Eddie Williams @ Mar 21 2006, 12:58 PM)

Not to mention the electrical requirements to smelt aluminium. One of my professors worked for ALCOA, he is always talking about how how big a pain in the ass it is to melt aluminium.

I had read that ALCOA was having fits with the high cost of electricity and was blaming that on their lower production output.

AFAIK doesn't ALCOA make most of their own 'lectricity? I know here in Tejas, they own a lignite mine (with like a 50 year supply) and associated boilers, etc. We just did a project based on that boiler. And in Oregon, don't they own some hydro dams? I would think they are putting as much into the grid as they are taking out. But then again I'm just a student, I'm not getting paid to think, yet.

anyway... when you melt the AL with external heat, aren't you oxidizing alot of the AL out of the alloy? Seems to me that if you were to make heads, you'd want a fairly accurate alloy, right? I'm taking a class in process and materials next semester, I can't wait. And CIM after that!!!

The new thing in casting is to arc it to the right temperature, which costs a lot more in electricity, but makes the casting with a near-zero porosity. Does ALCOA use this or does it just heat up a furnace like Mueller would?

QUOTE (Eddie Williams @ Mar 21 2006, 01:21 PM)

AFAIK doesn't ALCOA make most of their own 'lectricity? I

yes and no

QUOTE

Md. Alcoa Plant to Start Layoffs in December By Justin Blum Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, November 24, 2005; Page D01 Most of the workers at a Frederick County aluminum plant will be laid off starting next month as production is curtailed because of high electricity prices, the plant's owner said yesterday. Alcoa Inc. plans to lay off 500 of the 600 workers in late December, company spokesman Jake Siewert said. Another 75 employees are expected to be laid off next year from the 35-year-old plant. The company probably will shutter the 400-acre smelting plant, called Eastalco Works, unless electricity prices fall, Siewert said. "If energy prices in the mid-Atlantic stay where they are, it's virtually impossible to see a scenario where that smelter is viable," Siewert said. Smelting converts the extract of bauxite ore into aluminum in a process that consumes huge amounts of electricity. Companies that buy the aluminum transform it into door frames, windows and car parts. As domestic electricity prices have risen, aluminum smelting plants around the country have closed. Companies have moved production to countries where electricity is cheaper. The price of electricity typically is the biggest factor in deciding where to locate new plants. Alcoa had a long-term power contract, which was signed years ago, before electricity prices spiked. Alcoa says it cannot operate the plant, located outside Frederick, if it has to pay the going rate being charged by power suppliers. Electricity costs would far exceed what Alcoa is paying in other parts of the world. Alcoa recently told Eastalco workers that layoffs were likely. "It's starting to hit home," said Chip Cook, president of United Steelworkers of America Local 7886, which represents Eastalco employees. "People are starting to realize it's a reality and that -- more than likely -- they're not going to restart the plant."

When Enron jacked up the prices of electricity a few years ago, Kasier in Eastern Wash laid off everyone at the aluminum smelter plants. The workers got unemployment insurance and Kasier sold the electricity back on the grid making about a billion dollars profit. The State of Wash sued and Kasier had to pay for the laid off workers because there was no slow down it was just money making deal or rather windfall profits.

In Suriname recycling here killed the Bauxite exporting demand, so everyone just toss your aluminum cans in the trash, don't recycle!

We also did a project concerning carbon anodes for the process, so they use an electrical means to melt it. The crucible is also covered with a layer of another compound to keep the aluminum from "boiling" away. This may only be a factor in smelting primary AL, maybe not in forging alloys.

Ok the stuff on top is cryolite, which is the mixture of sodium flouride and alumina, it is the feedstck i guess, it also serves as an electrolyte. Carbon Dioxide is fromed near the annode and aluminium and oxygen is formed near the cathode.


i love this place...

Another factor is that ALCOA can make more money selling the electricity then using it to make AL.

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Mar 21 2006, 12:30 PM)

...so everyone just toss your aluminum cans in the trash, don't recycle!

No, just ship them all to Mike!

Hey Mike, how soon 'till you offer custom billets? :-)

-Josh2

so there goes another alpha thread hyjacked beyond recognition.