i've been to the big track a few times, 10 maybe. probably about 20-25 AXs ...

i am narrow minded because i go by what a racetire manufacturer tells me about their tires in their product description?
what a respected reseller lists on their website for the same product?
what other respected racers have told me?
what i have experienced so far with my limited track/AX experience?

you have got to be kidding !!!

i don't care how many times you drove in a circle and how many years you have tried to kill cones in a parking lot,
stretching a racetire beyond what it was designed for IS NOT SAFE and anybody who tries to tell me otherwise does not belong behind the wheel of a racecar ...

period. my narrow minded opinion and i'm sticking to it ...
Andy

OK doaky

I like track tires...


KT

And I'm sure it will get the respect it deserves.

*if* i was looking for respect, i wouldn't be looking for it here ...

so, you are saying it's perfectly fine to overstretch your tires ...
am i understanding you correctly?
Andy

Say, Dan. You ever run the Toyo's?
I know KenH has. He likes the Kumho's better though.

I want to try the Toyo's. I think of all the Spec classes that run them and so on. They must be good, right. Just kinda nervous over here.


KT

What you can't seem to get thru your stubborn German skull is that Goodyear has said repeatedly that mounting these tires on 8 inch wheels is *not* "overstretching" them.
You are the only one that says that they are being "overstretched". Maybe you should call Goodyear and tell them that they are all fucked up. Maybe they'll put you to work as the chief straightenerouter of all us dumb fucks who are trying to kill ourselves & everybody around us.

Trekkor,

Go over to the Pelican Board and post your questions about the Toyo's there. Or PM Mark Scott of Scott Associates who runs a Beck's powered 68 or 69 911 in HSR/VARA. Lots of guys running Kumho's, Hoosiers and Toyo's. Scott has a clean car and has won a series championship. I rmember him talking about the switch from Victoracers to Toyo's. I'm sure if you do a search there you could get info on it.

IIRC, the guys running track events said the tires lasted longer (heat cycles and tread) if you shaved them. Probably has something to do with chunking the tire. I remember when we were running the 2.7 914 during a rainy weekend that dried out during my run session. Victoracers were on our light car and they stuck great once they came in. I also tried a set of the V700 Ecsta's after that and I thought they were terrible. They got greasy really quick during a 25 minute run session. I have never tried the V710's or Hoosier Dot R's on the track as we had already made the move to slicks by that time.

Bill P.

Thanks, Bill.

Rich W had told me this evening that a 4-6/ 32's shave is critical.
He said they went through 5 sets in the 25 Hours of Thunderhill.

He was telling me how he went out on tire's that were at the 6/32 tread depth. Their lap times were 3 secs slower than the 4/32 cut.

If I get them, he recommends the 6/32's shave for me, as I will improve as they wear in and increase grip all the way to the wear bars

For reference: the full tread depth is 8-9/32's.
Full tread in competition is only used in the wet.


KT

have you ever sold anything for a living? ever worked for a company that sold products?

in a fairly small market like this certain type of racing slicks, one would think that a company like goodyear would be interested to sell as many of those tires as possible.

*if* they could be mounted on 8" without any problems, you can be *certain* goodyear would list that size in their spec-sheet. this is called marketing ...
however, they are very clear that those tires are to be mounted on 7" rims only.
why do you think that is?

there obviously is a reason why they do *not* list 8" as a allowed rim size for their tires ...

apparently, the goodyear specifications in print and online can easily be ignored and substituted with rumors and anecdotes ...

again, thank you for proving my initial point ...
Andy

His eyes are x's. I think he's dead, boys.


KT

i know. that's why you should be able to see what i'm trying to say here ...

nowhere, not just online, but also (and even more so) in print, have i ever seen or come across a specsheet for this particular type of tire (from goodyear) that *ever* listed anything other than a 7" rim as the size. ever.

now this might be the biggest hiccup since marketing was invented, but i have my doubts ...

in addition, for everybody here that states that they have heard that it's "ok" to stretch those tires, i have had someone else tell me the opposite.
i guess it now comes down to who can dig up the more impressive names to go with their claims ...

if i am wrong and these tires can be safely mounted on a 8" rim, goodyear has had the lousiest continuous marketing campaign of all times, hands down,
because they could have sold hundreds of thousands more tires over the years ...

i guess these guys are missing out on a ton of business as well!
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...15&autoview=sku
someone call them and let the know ...

Andy

Bill, thanks for the idea to go over to Pelican and poke around.
I learned quite a bit about the Toyo's.
"Sprint shave", "Enduro shave" etc.

Some guys say run full tread and enjoy improving grip all the way to the cords. Some say run shaved at 4/32's.

Seems to be the same story. "To each his own".
All tend to aggree that the tire is fastest on short treads.

So, If I go with the enduro shave at 6/32's or even full tread the tires may be at peak grip by the end of the season when I should be at the top of my skill level.

People have been worried about chunking or squirmy feel when used at full tread on dry tracks.
No reports of chunking were found but some stated squirmy feel.
Some of that seemed to be due to underinflation.

I want buy from my local America's Tire Co. here in town because they have been so good to me. They don't/can't get shaved Toyo's though.

I could buy the tires from AIM and pay AM Tire Co to do the mount and balance.

Never ending, huh?

KT

Hi Trekkor,

Yeah...there was alot of discussion about the Toyo's on the bird board. If you decide to buy the shaved tires....get them sent to you and have your local tire guy mount and balance. Or maybe your local tire guy can buy from AIM wholesale B2B. They make a couple of dollars and you don't have to deliver to them.

As far as the different tread depths, you could try one set one way and log it into a notebook and then try a set a different way (shaved versus unshaved). Let the data tell you how they perform regarding wear, laptimes, driver preference. It may take several months, but you'll collect some information.

Bill P.

In case you were wondering about the Yokohama 225's I have.

I'm not brave enough to run them. I think they will burn through my paint in the rear fenderwells.

This picture is not the greatest, but it's what I have.

the 225's mounted.


KT

This is a debate? If so I'd say niether side has offered compelling evidence one way or another. Seems quick way to resolve this is to talk to a Good Year tire engineer or rep involved with race tires.

All the other companies typically have great people available to speak to consumers.

well, of course they do! and they (summit) are just one source, not the absolute source. can i attach PDF's to posts? i'll try ...

directly from goodyear itself, fresh from the oven and still warm ...

so, you're telling me that whenever you see a specsheet for a product, any product, you *always* call in person to verify the content?
you trust the ingredients list on the back of your canned soup?
the expiration date printed on your yoguhrt?


if you can download the attached PDF, please note that we're not just talking about a typo, *all* of the G-19 tires for the production classes are listed as one rim size only ...
you will also notice that the few tires of the formular type that can be used on different rim widths are CLEARLY marked with a rim-width range !!!

what are the chances that your sales rep you had on the phone wasn't sure, didn't know, had no idea, was new, or worse, in india ...

maybe you should get a job at goodyear as they cleary seem to have a huge marketing problem on their hands ...

i'm sorry, but i just don't buy your "they must have fucked up their print material and spec-sheets because i spoke to a guy who told me different" story ...

hey trek, if you say please, i'll let you touch my schlicks next time at the AX, just so you can get an idea on how stiff those sidewalls really are ...
Andy

The nice thing about AIM, is they are at Sears Point and I can pick them up shaved for less than the price of AM's Tire Co unshaved with shipping fees.

Track's less than 20 minutes from home, you know?


KT

i never based anything on the ad at summit's website. that link came along after i had made my initial argument. it's simply to show that there *are* people out there that think those tires should only be mounted on one size rims.

my real argument has always been the print media that comes directly from goodyear ...

so it looks like we're now down to:
did goodyear fuck up their print media years ago and has been too lazy to fix it?

that is basically your argument, am i correct?
Andy

well, if you want to get picky on me ...

i never "quoted" you with that sentence, i *asked* you if that was basically what your argument was boiling down to.
technically, two different things. of course, you only saw the printed online version. if you had called me, i would have explained it to you in more detail ...



Andy

i was serious! c'mon bill, you are in advertising! a company as huge as goodyear should not, and can not afford to, have obviously incorrect spec-sheets and product information on their website.

that wasn't a blow against you, that was me poking at goodyear.
if you are right, they have a HUGE problem with their advertising.
plain and simple ...

don't tell me i'm wrong on that one as well ...
Andy

Once again, pick your gurus carefully.
If you need advice on an issue like this, bounce the Q off a couple of them. If the stars align, give it a shot & find out for yourself......they YOU know.

Thus far, I haven't had any problems with cantis on 8s. Since I'm running around parking lot killing cones, the danger to myself & others is minimal.
I could run them on 7s, but one of my gurus warned me off that for AX. That particular guy didn't say to use em' on 8s instead. I extrapolated at bit from another source or 2. So.....nobody recommended running cantis on 8s. Some said they did so and since I had a problem to fix, that's how I fixed it and it worked.

Problems that come up for guys that actually do stuff (vs armchair quarterbacks) can cost time & money (500 bucks for a pair of cantis + wheels). Research is good prior to jumping in. I satisfied myself that this was a possible cure and put my money on the line. Right or wrong, there it is. If I'm wrong, it won't be the first time so ego doesn't enter into the equation. The only thing that counts is the result.

dude ... i told you before, *i* have been told by people that *you* would consider experts and/or gurus, apparently, they didn't tell you, too bad for you ...

btw. exactly what makes one an expert?
Andy

sorry to tell you that, but in germany (and probably most of the rest of the world) a manufacturer that has false product descriptions and datasheets and knows about it and doesn't do anything about it would be regarded as *incompetent* ...

the fact that you're fine with that fits perfectly in my 10+ experience with CA workethics ... must be the sun ...
and yes, you could regard this as a low blow, just my observation, *quality* and "standing behind your product" does not seem to be very apprechiated around here ...

i'm sorry man, that's just not right ...
Andy

hold on, putting on my marketing hat ...

you just contradicted yourself. big time. if goodyear sells 99.9% of those tires to go on 7" rims, then, according to your claim, they're missing out on a *HUGE* market of 8" guys that don't buy their tires because they don't *know* that they fit a 8" rim ...

that's about the worst marketing argument i have ever heard ...

and yes, i run my own company, and have so for years. and yes, i sell products and services.
and yes, i have worked for multi-multi-million dollar companies and know a thing or two about selling stuff in large quantities ...
Andy

Experts are those who have BTDT and have been successful in their chosen field.
Like yourself, I'm not a name dropper.....they're hinterland guys anyhow.

The point is moot in any case.* I* made the decision months before this thread came up and there's nothing here to make me reconsider. In fact, with the admittedly
short time I've been using the car for it's intended purpose, the results have been positive. Tho I'm still slower than I would like, the car is much easier to drive & the push is gone. Both my co-driver & I are learning to drive the thing, so we have hopes for measurable improvements against those that are currently faster than us......assuming the front tires don't explode killing everyone in view.

Speaking of unsafe set-ups, what are you doing to improve your suspension problems .....beyond your chassis deformation? Which guru recommended slicks on a car that wasn't set up for them? Didja notice how this attack dog crap cuts both ways?

Funny discussion. Let's see if I got it right?

"Canti's are cool"
"Yeah, I know, man"
"They won't/can't fit on 8's, dude"
"Listen Bro, I seen it. Come look"
"No, you're dumb"
"Hey,hey...I asked them guys. It's fine"
"So what?"
"arrgggh!"
"Hack"
"Chop"
"Outsch!!"
"You OK?"
"Yeah"
"They don't fit, though"...



KT

have you seen me on the big track lately? no? well, there's a reason why i have not attended any DE/TT with my car recently ...
why? because i feel it's not safe with the current problems. go figure ...

no one recommended slicks for my car.
well, actually, bill p. sort of talked me into it.
i bought them from him. but i was a willing target.

Andy

My wife just saw this and asked, "So , do they fit?"

I told her yes...


KT

I'll keep my resonse short...

Cantilever tires are advertised to fit 7" rims because -that- is the market they are being sold to. Look at most of the smaller displacement production and many formula classes. Most are required to run a maximum rim width of 7". Which is why cantilever tires were created in the first place. It doesn't neccessarilly mean that's the -only- rim they'll fit on, but only the manufacturer can tell you otherwise.

And trekkor... I like the idea of the Toyo's so long as you don't need the -fastest- tire on the track. My favorite saying about Toyo's? "Toyo's, they suck for a really long time...". They won't be the fastest, but they'll last a lot longer.

-Josh2

this has turned into a stupid thread.

Let's turn that around.



I wonder how they stick compared to the 710's?
The 710's work extremely well. I have not driven them to the edge and so they have not gotten greasy on me. At all.

I ran an old set of Hoosiers at Streets of Willow. Those seemed ok.

I have run on my street tires (Yok YK 420's) at Sears, Thunderhill and Laguna.

They howl like crazy and roll over a lot, but were still fun. 195/50/15's

Right now fast is not the big thing. It's smooth and consistant.
I need everything to be predictable as I slowly creep up in ability.


KT

Why don't we leave the slick/canti debate for another day....

I believe Trekkor's initial inquiry was about Toyo, yoko, hoosier, kumho DOT Rs.

He couldn't fit cantis under his current fenders. Doesn't even look like 225s will fit on the rear of his car in it's current configuration.

Trek,

My good friend Jeff Reitmeir and his co-driver Jim Lane in the 924S, used Toyos last season and they both said they were junk for their application.
They went back to Kumhos this season for practice and I believe they have a set of Hoosiers for Timed Runs. They both agreed that they worked well in the rain and lasted a long time, but for ultimate grip they were nothing special. I think Jeff knows a thing or two about good vs. fair vs. junk tires, for AX and TT.

Just because the Toyos are the spec tire for a couple of groups like spec Miata or 911 cup, does not mean they are a great tire....just means those guys have to use them and they are getting a bit of a discount at purchase time.

remember you are still in a steep learning curve on the track.
Get a particular tire and stick with it the entire season. Constantly switching tires does not let you learn the progression you are making. "Is it the tires or is it me?"
With your car you should be able to get a set of what ever manufacturer's tires and run a good portion of the season. If not then, either your car setup or driving technique needs to be attended to.

My $.02

So.....we're dumb for wasting our time here.
What are you doing here, informing us of our dumbness?.....thanx
Please continue rating threads so I'll know which to avoid so's I don't seem like a drooling idiot.....even tho I am.

Thanks, Dan.

From your 914 point of view, knowing that I have seven track days experience on the 710's, would you suggest that I continue on them again?
I know I like them. They are very comfortable to me.

I won't rip up the next set at the a/x, so they will certainly see way more than seven track days.

KT

If that is the tire you are comfortable with then I would go with them. But then again I think you will learn more about your car's dynamics on the track on a less extreme DOT R tire.
Kumho Victoracers or even the Toyo RA1s would be more along your current learning curve. The 710s will cover up some driving issues the other tires might not. You will learn more on a less agressive tire.
I would stay with a DOT R but not the most aggressive like the 710s or some of the Hoosiers.

Just my take on the learning curve of students.

what about victoracers, trekkor? good grip, good life -- they're also a pretty progressive tire at the edge.

I couldn't wait any longer. I ordered another set of 205/50/15 710's.

It will be interesting to see how they feel with no a/x'ing on them.


KT

Well, there you go.....

I guess we will be seeing how the 710s wear during track sessions this year.

I am going thru the same considerations right now with my new 6.5x15 minilites. If I get the mounting issues straightened out...I need to decide if I am going to mount up another set of Victoracers or go with something else. Don't want to go to Hoosiers or 710s...at least this season.

I had been throwing around the Toyo idea until I talked to Jim and Jeff.

So I guess I will either use Victoracers or A032Rs. Since I have been happy with both of those tires in the past.

Good choice. Cant wait to install my big fat 710's if they grip better than Victoracers I will be quite happy.


I spent about two hours on deserted mountain roads today getting seat time in the 914. The Victoracers are an awesome street tire. I flew up Jamison Creek road a la hillclimb style. The grip was wicked. Man this car is balanced!

2 miles from home my shift linkage broke.

Dan, I thought you picked up some of those A032's on close-out?


KT

Nope I got some slightly used Victoracers, that are mounted on my Fuchs.
Now I need to decide all over again for the minis.

I think the '32's are still available on Tire Rack, but...Only the hards.
That may work for you. I only ran the softs for a/x and went through them really quick.

KT

$128


KT

yeah, I have been watching them on Tirerack for several months. If I can't get the issues with the minilites rectified, then I am just going to run my Fuchs with the Victoracers until they are gone. If I do get the minilites to work then I am going to get a second set of tires for the track on them.

Then I will have a nice set of black center Empi Look 8 spokers with 195 michelins for sale.

Hi Trekkor,

I just got back from LA. Had to see my daughter this morning.

Wow...sorry about the tire thread going off course. I deleted my posts that related to the rim issues so that YOUR thread is returned to you. I apologize for helping it get off course.

If anyone is interested, I did send a message to Goodyear last week about the slicks and the rollover on them during AX for the sizes on Fritz. Last night I also added another message about the canti's. Hopefully Goodyear will respond in a timely manner. They have in the past.

Last week I dropped off Fritz at JWE to redo the suspension geometry setup. We're trying our best to dial out the 2 wheel bit. If anyone is interested in what we find or what Goodyear has to say, just PM me.

Now back to your regularly schedule Track Tire thread!

Bill P.

Aw, man.
That stuff was hilarious.

I'm glad I was on last night to see it.

Oh well, maybe I should delete my junk, too.


KT

I have both the Hoosiers R304S 225x45x15 running on 15x7 fuchs front and 15x8 rear and 205x50x15 Toyo RA1's. I have not shaved the Toyos. No question, no debate for me...I like the Toyos but in my 914-6 they dont hold a candle to the Hoosiers on the track. I am told shaving the Toyos improves their grip, turn in,etc. but have not done that yet.
The HOOSIERS are much stickier, better turn in, more predictable at the apex and just simply make the car handle better, faster.
With the HOOSIERS on sale - no question - buy them for your track days. Greg Braun turned me on to them 6 years ago...you might seek his input too.
Greg Welch

Hi guys,

Does anyone have feedback the new Hoosier vintage radial called the Speedster.
The vintage club I race with(VARAC) requires 60+ series for my class and this new Hoosier is beeing offered in the size 185/65/15 witch is ideal (I think) for my 5.5'' OEM Mahles.I now have Yokos 048 205/60/15 witch are OK but still to wide for my rims and contact patch is minimal.
MB