Yep, that's the engine mount alright! Fat73 has pics of it installed in the engine bay without the engine installed since we just got it in tonight and it sure is beautiful. It's something very rigid and well designed. I wouldn't want to design and produce it myself, that's for sure. Nothing "home made" I've seen on here even comes close to it.

Here's my take on the whole situation, and I wasn't there so don't take this as the gospel: Renegade was at the show because they wanted to be part of the community and let people know/see that they are doing Subaru conversions-- publicity. I don't think Scott was there to "spear" anyone, and I'm sure he was spread pretty thin. I'm sure he would've been more than happy to let people take a look under the car, but just as they did when Ed (fat73) visited the shop in Vegas, didn't want pictures taken unless an owner of a vehicle with their mount consented. It would suck to have the "oh crap, someone just got pics of all our stuff and posted them on the internet for competitors to emulate" phenomenom happen on your watch. I'm sure Scott turned around, realized what was happening, and frantically opened his mouth and said the first thing that popped into his mind as harshly as possible to really catch Tony's attention and keep him from taking that picture. I'm sure anyone here can recall doing the same kind of thing in a variety of situations.

Additionally, Tony is known as being a "rebel" and having the "I can do it myself, I don't need Renegade's help" attitude and the fact that he was snapping pics of something he couldn't figure out ninja-style could've been taken as a slap in the face. "Oh yeah, you don't want to emulate us but you want to get pictures of our set-up?" You can understand where I'm coming from. Just a thought.

In all honesty I really don't know exactly what happened, but I would've been shocked if the same thing happened to me. Renegade/Scott was wrong by not keeping closer tabs on the car or posting a clearly visible sign and everyone else is wrong by jumping to conclusions about Renegade because of this incident. They produce very high-quality products and from what I understand have good customer service as well. Cut them some slack, try to place yourself in their shoes (trying to make a profit while still trying to contribute to the community), and wait for an apology. If it happens, that's great. If it doesn't, don't get an ulcer over it.

Now go get your keys, turn off the computer, and drive your 914.

Last I checked, the 914 club was a pretty tightly knit group. Knowing Tony personally I would come to his aid any chance possible. I'm not dissatisfied with Renegade Hybrids, but based on his experience with this Scott fellow I would choose to DIY a subie conversion if I know I'm handing my checkbook or cash to a guy who speaks down to a fellow enthusiast, let alone a friend.

That is the double-edged-sword of being a business person to a tight community -- your customer service (or customer service skills) will be known, good and bad.

Theres something about people who think they own your camera that piss me off as well. This is a good thread that needs to be addressed to the club about how RH really is.

HEY!?! That's my design!! (1/2 serious)

Out of curiousity and by no means is this a thread hijaxing ( ) but how much approximatly could I look at spending for a Scooby converison for my 914? I understand the renegade kit is a good idea of the parts cost, considering bigger brakes and better suspension are a given for this kind of car if I get balls deep in the engine with a scooby conversion. Thus am pretty daunted by the cost. Being a soldier it doesn't lend much in the way of moola unless, of course, I was an 2LT (why i didn't go to college right away I will never know). Then i could afford a freakin kit in two months pay with money leftover for the engine.

I have TRIED to buy parts form Renegade on several occasions. When Scott gets an attitude about what I am doing, or says that will never work, I hang up the phone and get the stuff somewhere else.

Thats how I did my conversion mfor $1500 instead of $3000

Mark

So its a subframe that ties in the trans and engine mounts.
Correct? Is that it?

I knocked a similar system up in CAD last year if thats all it is.
No big deal.

right.... it is a cradle that picks up the /4 engine bar mounts, and also picks up the tranny mounts....

also giving the scoobaru motor a place to mount

I have read all of this thread and find it interesting, I have had some negative dealings with Scott, but I won't turn this into a bashing. In this day and age there are almost always options, if you don't like how you are treated, go somewhere else or do it yourself. Tony, I don't know you, but I respect you for holding your tongue, I probably would have not been able to show your level of restraint...hats off to you!

Didnt Red Dawg racing come up with this subchassis design 10 years ago. Granted it wasnt for a subaru but same concept. I remember looking at it in their video they produced. It was a subframe for the V8 and a 915 trans that pick up the original 914 mounts.

What a let down, 6 pages of bitchin and all we got were two pictures of an engine mount that wasn't even plated in gold. Come on, what is so special about that mount? Anyone doing a Subaru conversion has probably thought about that style of mounting and I am sure it has been done before. I would have come back later and snapped a picture.

-Britain

Hmm. First, the treatment was bad

Second, if I had a kit and was verboten to display pictures of it, I'd enter the car into as many car shows as possible with it lifted in the air for ALL to see. It's the rebellious nature in me

Personally, forbidding someone to take pictures, particularaly in a public event, is stupid silly!

I understand the convienence part. I also understand how others would rather do it themselves. I also work for a software and services business and thus understand the legalities therein about piracy and compitition...though software can be a bit (hahaha) more difficult to reverse-engineer. BTW, you don't see the floor monkeys at new car shows telling spectators to not take pictures because they're afraid someone will try to copy their car to build their own, now do you? Extreme example but valid nonetheless

As to the last two points in the above quote, well my friend, I guess I'm once again an exception because I 'invented' a way to replace the generator in a Type III with an alternator. COMPLETE documentation can be found here:
http://www.icbm.org/erkson/ttt/engine/generator.html#custom

Turns out there was a market for this conversion so I worked with my buddy and his shop ( http://www.theddb.com/ ) now sells this alternator conversion kit:
http://www.theddb.com/new/DDB_products/alternator_kit.html

Sales are not hurting by any stretch of the imagination simply because many prefer the convienence of a plug-n-play set up...even though I give detailed instructions on my web site! Of course there are those who will do it themselves, just like any endevour, but that number is very small.

I get no monetary profit with this product. Any profit I would gain I told my buddy to keep and put it back into the shop. The profit I gain: Knowledge in helping other enthusiasts and owners, and pride in engineering accomplishment (I should've been a mechanical engineer) because when I look at an alternated engine (yes, I just made that word up) I know it was because of my hobbiest enthusiasim and effort. Maybe it's because of my attitude that I have far more respect to those who share their efforts than to those who hoard them.

Of course, all the above blabber is my opinion and worth 1/2 a bellybutton hole of lint

Tony...

It's Scott...Renegade. Yep, you are correct. I acted like an ASS and for that, I am truly sorry. I don't have some lame excuse, but I would like to offer an explanation for my knee jerk reaction...

Please take a moment to understand what it takes to make this place work and you might see where we (especially "I") can get kinda "punchy" from time to time:

Two weeks ago I set out on the impossible journey to deliver a car to the far side of Ohio. After trailer tire problems, getting jacked up by the Police twice, and averaging just under 1000 miles a day for the four days, I arrived back to Vegas with more back/neck/and butt issues than I care to share.

...Now it's time to build a booth for the GAF in a record 3 days. We worked about 20 hours a day getting ready for the show and then we made the trip ladened with cars, parts, and lots of bling. Again, little sleep, lots of painkillers, and a Red Bull or two to keep things going.

To top things off, Tom Trudel’s beautiful light blue 914 Subie conversion, that was going to be our center piece at the GAF, was broken at the Dyno shop in the Bay Area the day before the show and didn’t make it. (Fortunately, Keith’s car was not only finished in the nick-of-time but it won BEST OF SHOW from the people’s choice awards.)

By the time Saturday AM became a reality, we were dead as you can well imagine. Just ask Brad Roberts and Mike Zois that joined us for dinner Saturday night...we hadn’t had one ounce of alcohol but our drunkenness was short of intoxicating.

To further the effects of sleeplessness and exhaustion, Saturday night’s dinner went through us like a cat through a dog pound...so I spent much of the evening sleeping in a sitting position. So, as you can see, we were less than "on-our-game" over the weekend.

Another way to look at it... We have been ripped off many times and it sucks. We put so much time into developing this stuff that is so custom, we ultimately make very little profit. Once you add in the cost for the R and D, then the cost for testing, tooling, and finally promoting, a new kit costs us about $15,000 hard cash each and every time. Insurance, cost of materials, and just keeping the lights on and the AC working also eats into any gravy we might see. Imagine spending $15,000 on new parts just to discover that you funded the R and D for another company that has stolen your ideas.

I have no excuse for my actions and this long explanation does not justify how I treated you...so again, I am sorry. I hope that everyone can see that ALL of us have done something that we regret. Just hope that future mistakes do not make the front page of a HUGE INTERNET CHAT BOARD like this one.

EGG WORN PROUDLY ON FACE!

Thanks for reading my post and I hope someone will call off the wolves. Take care all...

Sincerely... Scott >>> Renegade Hybrids

PS... I only wish I had the time to keep posting on this board. I don't...and I can’t. I really appreciate everyone like Dana, BJ, Keith and Tom who are able to lend a voice to our efforts from time to time. If you have a specific question, issue or problem you would like to address, please use my e-mail at scott@renegadehybrids.com and I will get back to you ASAP. Again, thanks... Scott.

I just love a happy ending!(add crying smilie here)

that was an impressive response with full accountability....don't see that too much these days.

Scott:

Thanks for the reply. I think your timely, candor response will do much to repair the damage done. There are a great many people who would not admit being in the wrong, or offer an apology.

As I posted earlier I understand the level of effort that goes into doing a conversion. That is probably about half the effort required to make an actual product worth selling. I'm actually pretty amazed that a kit only costs $15,000 to develop. In my line of work $15,000 might pay for a few meetings to discuss a design.

I am sure next time we meet it will be on better terms.

-Tony

This better than going to the movies.

I'm still keeping the /6 though...

Yep....he wasn't drinking that night and the next day he looked like dog poopy....we ate the same Mexican food but Bradhole, I and the others fortified ourselves with Dos Equis and Tekilya....

But he was nice enuff to remember the Fuchs wheel deal.....

Good to see that there is a middle ground here.

Group hug...Kumbaya.....


OH GAG ME.....

its good to see hospitality in this thread now.

Tony...

I assure you...the next time we meet I will be on my best behavior.

Thanks to the recent posters for their responses. I think I might be able to hose off some of the egg now. ...Back to work! Take care...

Scott >>> Renegade Hybrids

adults acting like adults. (no sarcasm) =-)

it's a beautiful thing.

i'll gladly buy more renegade products. especially now.

Scott @ Renegade

This is your perfect opportunity to do a little marketing & sales promotion.

How about a run down on typical costs & a web site for us hungry subie want-a-bes???

Give us your best shot & tell us what a typical (budget #) installation will cost????

Tom

Well, Scott is man enough to stand up and say that he made a mistake. Many can learn from his example, me included.
I'm still not buying anything from Renegade Hybrids, however, but only because I'm a right leaning Porsche owner, any conversion I do will keep it in the family, not mix it up with the riceburners or the rednecks.

Whoopee!! A happy ending!! (no mikeZ not THAT kind of happy ending)
All is well in the subie world.

-Rob

I'll have you to know....I AM A PROUD AMERICAN SOUTHERN REDNECK , and I have a JAPANESE Turbocharged Rice Burner in my hot-rodded ultimately better than any stock GERMAN 914 (in my honest but most accurate opinion ). No sentimental purist here.....So there... I was about to puke after all of this huggy feely crap anyway . Glad that's over with. I feel much better. Can somebody delete this thread?Now back to work! This is taking up too much of my wrenching time!

By the way....a classy response Scott. Just what I think most people were hoping to see.


Ed aka fat73 soon to be W9R1

Too much estrogen flowing around here...

Tony, Scott, Keith, Dana, And anyone else that would like to be included.....

GO FUCH YERSELVES

Love Always
BJH

BenT said:
So doesn't this groups send emails to the principals at Renegade to bring this matter to heir attention? Why wait for them to come to this thread? I'll start off by sending them a note after I write this.

George said:
i think a admin already did


BenT says:

Uhummmm.. Yet Scott did not know about the thread until this email:

From: BenT Syncro
To: info@renegadehybrids.com
Date: Sep 11, 2006 11:13 AM

He responded by email to confirm he answered in the thread:

From: Info <info@renegadehybrids.com>
To: BenT Syncro
Date: Sep 12, 2006 11:55 AM


I think the best way to handle the issue was to take it to pmail first to Renegade. It they do not respond, then air it in a Forum. I don't know either Tony or Scott personally. That made it easier for me to be objective unlike some of you.

Perhaps if Tony had lodged a complaint with Renegade first, he would have gotten his apology sooner. Scott responded to my email and to the board within 24 hours.


BenT

HEY, FUCH YOU AND YOUR HORSE!!!!
wait what?

I just LOVE happy endings....


John

P.S. Tony I would have liked to have met you.

I must say Scott handled himself with dignity. He recognized the fact that he acted inappropriately. What transpired at the show only lasted a few moments...but this thread has gone on for a few days and many people have chimed in. I think we will all agree we have done or said something that we have regretted..."ooops...too late to take that back...." But in the end, it takes a big man to admit he erred and apoligize to make right a wrong. Personally, I have more respect for him now than ever... I think Tony handled himself admirably. He wasn't quick to blow this thing into a scene. He just wanted a little respect and wound up getting it.

Howie and A-ron woulda axed fer at least a "Reach Around"....

You should have heard Scott on the "mic" during the trophy give-away!! LOL I was waiting for an out of town Porsche redneck to light him up over some of his "comments" about the conversion cars..LOL He was up there with his shirt untucked.. he looked like left over dog food..LOL

Thanks for responding Scott. I told you at dinner that this place stood behind Renegade. I'm glad we still can


PS: I dont like you



B

I like Scott and the things thay do down there. Its not easy to run a company like his and yes people try and take Ideas all the time. Trust me on that. I have been to 10 big companys in the last year that will not let pic be taken. You Got to protect whats yours and maybe he did it alittle out of line But what a great come back. Your still a great conversion shop in my book.

Convenience

That's what I was told when I bought a full 911 V8 kit from renegade. First the kit came with hole in the side of the box. Looking thru the inventory revealed no hardware of any kind. No bolts washers anything.

So they did send me their hardware but I was still missing bits and peices.

Their Aluminum gas tank was packaged with the flywheel and the flywheel put a pretty big dent on the back of the gas tanks It's ok. No harm done. The dent is on the back of thank and can't be seen.

But what bugs me the most is their useless directions. What good is all the parts if all you have is a few pretty much useless online pictures that are barely clear. Some one without previous swap knowledge would never be able to do this conversion with the instructions they provide.

What really helped me was a video someone gave me, that was made by the previous owner of renegade, which went thru the whole installation process step by step.

That would be Andy Leany. I met him just before he sold Renegade and they were based in Redlands, CA. He sold me a nice rust free roller for $500 and it ultimately became the V-8 car it is today. He was a great guy.

Wow...7 pages on this issue! I was in the booth and ask Scott what the real cost to convert to a Subie if I gave him a 914....he said......20-25,000! Seems like you could put in a rebuilt 3.0L for that? Whats the Subie advantage?

power is cheaper.....

there are 500+ HP subarus out there...

whats it cost to build a 300HP six?.....500HP?

Cost to build a 300 hp six? About $2200.
Cost to build a 500 hp six? dunno, haven't done that one yet.

Well isn't this nice...

BJ - You are a douchbag, so your comments don't matter... Your just jealous cause your penis has not graduated from 1st grade!

There is only one thing that I will chime in on a serious note...

For the owners of Renegade, this is a business, not a hobby. I hear both sides of the equation, and understand them well. Renegade is fighting tooth and nail to provide new products. Every new product be it is a Subaru kit, or the new hybrid V8 penis pump has it's trials and tribulations. We as customers only get to see the tribulations. We buy the part and struggle to install it, but think about what Dana, Mike and Scott go through in the designing stages with not only not having a set of instructions but encountering problems and set-backs throughout the prototype mock up. It must be very frustrating... It just seems that if you are a hobbiest, the etiquite is sharing your ideas and products. Whereas in business, you will perish quickly giving away your commodities.

Without kissing too much ass, I thank Renegade and every other manufactor... Engman, drevil, Eric Shea and Ghetty come to mind for taking the time to produce new products and services for the 914 enthusiast. Without companies like these we would not have some of the options we have today...




now you can all get back to work, and oh yea...go fuch yourselves!

Ah, it's in the wording. If you GAVE me a 914 to put in a Subie engine, I would CHARGE YOU the same amount.

Now, if YOU did the conversion YOURSELF, it would be less

I know next to nothing about the Suby engines or the conversion.

Can I assume that a radiator is required for the conversion?

Cheers,
Rusty

OK, you want to know what I think about Renegade. What a bunch of duds!!!! Nothing bad to say about Scott. I am sure he is a good nuts & bolts, hands on person, but he sure missed an opportunity to reach 99% of the people on this site who were not at the event. Why are they not on this site doing a dog & pony show to tell everyone why they deserve our business. I'll tell you why. No marketing skills. They spent lots of money to attend the German event & forgot to touch a huge potential market of viewer's. If this was Jake Raby he would be here with fire in his boiler telling everyone why quality counts & back it up with a web site answering questions with pricing, etc. Raby has a little B.T. Barnam (circus) in him and gets everyone to dig into their pockets to spend $20K on his products. Like him or hate him he knows how to market his company. His company will grow along with his reputation because of his sales/marketing skills.

Now on to Renegade. I am sure they are a fine company & great guys trying to make a living. Yes, they developed and spent lots of money with quality products, but they don't know how to grow a business and make money. They need to look at themselves and learn from this experience. They need professional marketing help.

I would give them a few pointers if they asked me. I might even tell them to hire one of our web site experts. Maybe develop a group of outside sales reps. Maybe someone like Craig @ Bxstr. to sell & handle turn key 914's. I would even suggest Renegade hire Mike Z to be a paid consultant (hey, the guy is good & I never met him). They need to reach out to the people in the 914 market that can take them to the next level of sales. Anyway you get the idea. They need marketing help. I say these things because many of us only see what comes through our screen each day. Please don't flame me for giving my thoughts, lets just help Renegade. I would consider them on a future project, but I need a warm & fuzzy feeling after this Scott thingie.

You suggestions please

Tom

I think that this thread is pretty much done. I don't want this thread to turn into a discussion of Renegade Hybrids in general, nor a discussion of Subaru conversions. There are plenty of threads for that. I don't particularly want to delete this thread because I think in the end it turned out better for everyone involved and is good documentation of it.

-Tony