That's funny he also told me an electric water pump wouldn't work and mine has been on there for three years.

Just imagine for a moment....

The Possible ways to handle this.....

1. Nothing is said - Tony come back with the info and no thread.

2. He is asked to not take pictures nicely, and is told how it was done and the vendor is helpful.

3. He gets the responce he got..


Now I understand about 'rights' but you are displaying it and as a vendor you want to sell what you have. But I see at least one other way to have no pictures taken and have some good well establised.

Tony - I have followed your thread with great interest. Excellent job. Keep up the good work.

M

Did renegade "borrow" any designs from KEP? Did they "borrow" and designs from Rod Simpson? did they "borrow" any ideas or designs from anyone else?
Of course they did. So now maybe they actually came up with something slightly original and want to protect it? BS.

I'd have gone medieval.

100%. That there is some good thinkin'.

Engine designed by...

I'm curious? What stops somone from buying the kit, taking pictures and posting it on the internet?

Probably nuthin' besides the 2k price of admission. Beyond that there is probably not a whole lot more they can do.

Ok, who has a picture so we can end this? Post it here!

-Britain

i may have one from under keiths car at the BBQ....

nothing excuses this guy for being a a-hole. I dont care how special their product is. The moment it became part of a car show it was their for everyone to see...

I have been considering getting a 2nd 914 for a subie conversion but i will use stuff made by Small Car. They are polite, open and helpful. I am using their Subie mount in my Vanagon. You can pull pix of their product from their web site. The product is reasonable priced so you would rather buy it than copy it.

Even in the past I used to hear wierd stuff like this about Renegade. (rude, not helpful) Another vendor i will never visit...

Tony,

First of all, I am not defending anyone on this post. I prefer to take the neutral posistion on this one as it does not involve me. Let me say you are one helluva nice and intellegent guy. Had I known of your expierance, I would not of busted your balls so hard. After reading this, I apologize for having fun with you. I also understand your frustrations of how your were treated. Hopefully, Scott was just spread too thin and lashed out at you. Like I said, I don't know... I was not there. Anyway, I admire your project and your tenasity. I took the easy road and just wrote the check to build my car. Whereas you are pushing the paradigm of 914 possibilities. Hats off to you, without open minds such as yourself's we will find ourselves repeating what we already know, never expanding our horizons. Keep up the good work and don't let others distract your vision, not even me!

Tony, anytime you are in Vegas and need a place to stay, you are welcome at my home.



Keith

I dealt with Renegade more than 10 years ago. Didn't have any problems then. I've never had to deal with them again. As for Small Car they do not seem to have any problems sharing their designs. That's why I had no problem with their rear disc brake kit which is essentially the one I designed and published for free to enthusiasts about 5 years before they put theirs out.

So why doesn't this groups send emails to the principals at Renegade to bring this matter to heir attention? Why wait for them to come to this thread? I'll start off by sending them a note after I write this.

BTW, who was first with V8 Porsches? Rod Simpson or Renegade?
BenT

Tony

Seems to me they don't want or need our business. I emailed them 2 week ago, concerning a problem I was having with one of their parts (just a throw out bearing) and have yet to get a reply from them. On the other hand, I sent pictures
and questions to KEP, and received a email within the hour. Guess its not hard to figure out who will get my buisness. I say boycott them, we don't need this kind of BS

Reguards Bob

Voluntary disclaimer toward the thread in general, not to this specific quote or anybody in particular......

I can't speak for Renegade, I'm not an employee of Renegade, I don't own part of Renegade (although sometimes I feel I do), and I'm not affiliated with Renegade except for being a customer-in-process. But guys.....use some common sense.

I bought the kit and am in the process of installing it because I didn't want to attempt to invent it and have the whole process take 5 years. I'd rather pay for 25 years of expertise that is pretty much guaranteed to work. It's kinda of like walking through a mine field. Wanna volunteer to go first or follow the last guy through?

Yes, Renegade let me see it up close and personal, got a tour of the shop, even had Dana come and pick me up at the hotel in his car to frighten me into buying a kit. I signed no such agreement about refraining from showing "revealing" pictures even though I was in their shop with my camera, underneath Dana's car which was on a lift, and about to drop $5k (a start), I was asked very politely not to take any pictures of the mount. I would've liked to have pictures, but I complied, and I understand. Pictures have a strange way of showing up on the internet. I think it's some kind of a law, you take a picture, it automatically shows up on the internet.

So, at least in my case I understood that Renegde didn't want me to give out pictures of the mounting mechanism where it could be refabricated by somebody, lets say as handy as TONY. Their mount is quite different and better than any other that I've seen. And....I remember telling Scott that I wouldn't do that. An informal gentlemans agreement of sorts. I'm sure they probably tell all their customers that. I do seem to remember Scott telling me that they were in the process of having the mount patented. Maybe, maybe not. If a patent is in progress, then I can understand the reaction, but not the method at least for a first request. Sounds like a good course of How to Wind Friends and Influence People may be in order for somebody.

So to you critics out there....Helloooooooo knuckleheads, Renegade is in business to make $money$, not to give away their trade secrets, just like let's say, a software company. I'be been in the software business for years, and piracy there is a no no too, and until you get something copyrighted or patented, it's usually held close to the vest. You get the Renegade pictures with the install instructions and all of othe piece parts once you've bought the kit. Duh!

I'm sure Tony can attest, and you can tell based on the extraordinary amount of imagination, engineering and design that went into his project, this undertaking is not a simple process that can be invented by the "average" engineer/mechanic. And in case you haven't notices, Tony is definitely not average. It's not a simple process, even with Renegade's kit. If you don't believe that, or you don't think what Renegade has put together is worth what they get for it, go ahead and try this from scratch, even with pictures, and we'll see how many more Tony's are out there. I dare you. And by the way Tony, I'd bet that if you were in business to sell your setup, you wouldn't be too interested in documenting it every step of the way until you got it perfected, and protected by a patent, now would you?

It sounds like most of you are more upset about this than Tony. Smacks of AutoAtlanta bashing... Yes, I'm probably one of the handful of people on the planet who actually thinks that George isn't a bad guy. Neither is Scott, Dana, or Mike. Plus, for anybody who is dead set on building one of these rockets, I doubt that this forum will keep them from doing business with Renegade because there will always be those like me who have thus far had a positive experience to rebutt the naysayers. Last time I checked, AutoAtlanta is still in business too aren't they???? OK that's my $7k worth....

Critics are a dime a dozen. What have you invented lately? Now, where did I put that proprietary turbo mount????


Ed aka W9R1

Can't we all just get along?

(now the LAPD and CHP can beat the shit out of me too)!!!

I would have snapped a picture anyway, and called his bluff. Public place, no reasonable expectation of privacy. If they are that concerned about protecting it, they would put a privacy agreement of some sort in any contract they had with paying customers. If he would have tried to look at my camera, I would have asked to see his badge; escorted off site indeed.

They may be in the business to make money, and concerned about "proprietary secrets", but the guy behaved inappropriately, it is that simple. You don't bring something to an auto show and expect people not to look at it, or heaven forbid photograph it.

Fat73

I read your comments & understand what your saying. I think the point of all this is how Tony was verbally treated. A professional sales person would have handled it differently. You don't treat potential customers like a bag of chicken manure. The guy was out of line & should be taken to the wood shed by Renegade mgt.

The only thing that will make it right, is a public apology.
Tom

If you're in the Software business - you'd probably know that a lot of software companies are clammering to turn themselves into service businesses (mine included) because it is too easy to replicate designs. One thing that isn't easy to replicate is a great customer experience, or quality. By letting the world see the Renegade product they stand to gain a lot in terms of their reputation for quality. By being rude to Tony they just get a reputation for being rude.

You're right - they are in business to make money; but I'd wager they'll make more money showing off their product (even on the internet) than they will trying to keep it secret and being rude to potential customers and their friends. Heck: I might have bought their stuff if I'd seen it, but instead (and answering your final question) I built my own mount and got my Subie engine running with Megasquirt and EDIS.

Come on somone must have some pictures of this top secret stuff.

Photos on your camera are your property Tony so if you have one of what this thread is about, how bout sharing it with the 914club.
Renegade does have a good business rep and your issue should only be with the person who got on your case about taking a photo.
Just my unbiased opinion.
Show us what you got!!

MikeCool

That's probably the one thing that could help. For all the right reasons, Tony's conversion thread is real popular, and thus because we're all eager to see what he comes up with next (you never know what kinda cool crap he might think up), he's made alot of electronic friends. And even though many of us never see each other, word does spread really fast these days. A good old fashioned ass kissing might be in order. Wasn't there, but seems like it could have been handled differently. By the way, from what I understand, Scott is Renegade management, with the company being co-owned by him and Mike Johnson. I'm sure if I'm not right on that one somebody will correct it.

Mike, Scott....Where are you?

Ed aka fat73 soon to be W9R1

I witnessed what happened as well. It could have been handled much better. Tony kept his cool and did not let a bad situation get worse. I lost more than a little respect for Scott, who I previously had no interactions with (talk about a bad first impression). I still admire what Renegade has produced and I think there are some great guys working there.

I have the stuff, I could show you a picture, then I'd have to kill ya.

Ed aka fat73 soon to be W9R1

As the old saying goes "A satisfied customer will tell 2 people, and dissatisfied customer will tell 20 people", or something like that. Or...one OH SH!T takes care of all of them ATTA BOYS. That is a hard lesson to learn by experiense, just ask AA. Another real bad thing a vendor can do is be a "nice guy" while the sale is being made, and then be an ass after the check has cleared. Lack of support after the sale, and unwillingness to resolve problems, or replace defective stuff is certain death. You used to be able to get away with that, but not now in the instant microwave internet society.

I was really leaning toward a V8 conversion until I saw what Renegade was able to do with the Subie. Plus one of my sons owned a WRX and I knew what the performance was gonna be like. I also looked around at Megasquirt and other stuff, but managed to get a motor complete with the original ECU and harness. Had smallcar prune the harness. I just didn't want to have to invent alot. Even with the kit, still ended up doing quite a bit of that anyway.

Hopefully this'll get straightened out soon, and we'll all be discussing more interesting/fun stuff. I need to be in the garage working on my car anyway.

Ed aka fat73 soon to be W9R1

got some new engine pics in my 1973 914 WRX Conversion thread on here somewhere

Oh, and I agree I worked in the performance industry for almost 10yrs and I can guarantee you there is a simple reason why I went into engineering - you can't design anything and not expect it to be ripped off within a year in the auto aftermarket. It is very hard to capitalize on a unique design these days, and I also understand why Scott wants to protect it as long as possible. So easier for me to go to aerospace and get a paycheck rahter than sell cool designs piece by piece.

That said, if I were going to copy his stuff, screw taking pix. I would BUY a conversion bar, build a jig, and copy away. That is what happened with products I would design - a Chinese company would buy one and copy it EXACTLY.

Also, if I were going to do a one-off copy for myself, I wouldn't need to take a photo - anyone actually capable of building brackets would have enough skill to just do it, not need photos of another. I built my own mounts because their's sucked for my V8 conversion specifics.

I tried to talk to them and buy some ancillary stuff and got yanked around enough I just bought/built my own cooling setup (better for less money btw) and built away. McMark is absolutely right - I could do it on my own from the start but was looking for CONVENIENCE.

They are selling service and convenience, and apparently can't quite do either. They are just lucky because there is really no competition in that marketplace. No, no, no - aerospace - set paycheck - don't go back


EDIT - Oh yeah, this coming from a company who's original designs were all stolen from another. Look at a KEP adapter and look at theirs for instance. Cheaper to copy than keep buying from KEP. How much you wanna bet they used a KEP to make theirs! HYPOCRITES!

pics



















ccl

Well, that was impressive!

an eye opener for me.

that aint the flagship "you cant take pictures of me!" engine cradle.....

this is.......


























ok. i havent found the pic yet

hey boxstr...
that is not a renegade kit!

Not only was I there, I told Tony to stick his head under the car and look @ the Speed sensor ring (never mentioned pics).

There was a bit of over reaction.

Renegade (whom no longer employs, i was there as a friend of the shop, not an employee) Is doing their best to keep their design their own. Had Scott been their the whole time, it never would have been so bad. Had I thought about it, i would have asked Tony not to take a pic, but I didn't, and Scott saw it as Tony was putting the camera to his eye...

What hasn't been said as yet is Tony got the speed sensor he wanted/needed anyways. He is creative enough to replicate the bracket for the sonsor from memory, and got all the other needed info. He got what he wanted, and a bit of a spectatle as an added "bonus."

Tony, if you need anything from me, yell. I can probably findout anything else you might need.

BJH

Sure doesn't sound like the Scott I know so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. That was supposed to be my car there but I had electrical probs (not related to Renegade) and could not get my car down there. So I'm going to standby and see what Scott says in response to Tony's post (on the website that targets his LARGEST Subie conversion market).
BTW, Scott never told me that no one can take pics of my car's underbody and I didn't sign any kind of confidentiality agreement, so anyone who wants pics, come on down!

Wow, they used metal and welding! The secret is out!

Oh, not a Renegade kit? Ah well, back to wondering what kind of dark magic they used

bubble bubble toil and trouble
fab up a subie kit on the double....

LMAO!

You'd think they'd use carbon fiber at least for the amount of fuss they cause!

BTW: Boxstr's pics look like Eric Tischer's subaru conversion - which used the 1.8l Subaru motor and later the 2.7l.

(The pics are of 2 separate engines.)

fixed link


Who's Scooby Roo is this?

it is so amazing that some say you will go blind by simply being in its presence.
legend has it that photographing this kit may cause sterility in some men.
be scared, very very scared
but seriously it is a pretty nice setup, all round steel tubing, welded, powder coated, black magic, yada yada....

After 15 years of product development there are a few "rules" out there, most based on common sense.

If it's proprietary and you don't hold the patent... guess what.. you don't show it to anyone...

Anyone who "needs to know" i.e. a supplier whose gonna build it for you has to sign a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) where they cough their lives savings if they break their promise to keep it under wraps...

Bringing a device to a public event, allowing people to view it, but then getting pushed out of shape if they photograph it is silly. What about the "mental photograph" most any engineer will "take" just viewing a piece of machinery?

My turn!

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." quote by Einstein

I believe Einstein got it right!
Everything has already been done!
So why hide your creativity?
Publish your novel work?
Hide your sources and you will remain creative and maybe stay in business longer.



I always like to go philosophical when I hear stories about business assholes!

ok, next air show you go to, try to take pics of everything on the plane... It's much more effective if it's a Military plane...

Looking is one thing, photo's are a whole new ball game.

BJH

Wow, I would have put up a much larger arguement then that, if he didn't want people to see his design why was it in the damn show in the first place, anyone with a good memory could glance at it and probably figure it out if they wanted to. Or just buy the damn kit and make a better/cheaper version and sell that. If he was so concerned then I would have said something along the lines of thats why we have patent laws, so I couldn't copy it if I wanted to, if he hasn't patented it then hell, he can't stop u from copying it if u wanted to.

Shops that are concerned that much about "super secret" parts should just not go.

I never implied that the pics were of a RH kit.
CCL

Craig you are such a tease.

I chuckled at that too. I thought it was obvious you were joking.

My take on this is Renegade has a right to protect there products to the extent they can. The way it was handled by Renegade was bad for business, they should have treated you with respect. Having said that if you were looking for answers to a problem and using them to solve it, that might also be considered disrespectful of there business. Each person has a vested interest in the situation. Personally I would have been annoyed by there reaction but at the same time could see there point. The fact is what they do isn't so special in the end but getting there cost money and everyone has a bottom line. I would hope Renegade can make it up to you, it would do wonders for there rep here. Some of us don't need a business to back us up the way others do and having a business with ready made parts is to their benefit. If all the conversion companies closed there doors a lot of us would be in a bind some day.

This is from a distance without being yelled at like a 8 year old, mix that in and I would have been very angry at them, thats one reason I never fight a ticket even if I think I have a good chance to beat it. I am leery of spouting off at a judge in open court.

I agree that Renegade should be able to protect their intellectual property. If they choose not to let people photograph parts of show cars, thats their choice. Its definitely not what I would expect, but its up to them. As many have said here, I was not upset about them trying to protect their IP, but the way I was treated.

Scott was never part of any conversation I was having at the booth, but if he overheard me asking questions about stuff, then maybe he thought I was a potential threat to his business.

If he was put off by me asking questions about conversion details I can even understand that. I know personally how much time and effort it takes to solve the myriad of problems involved in doing a conversion, much less making it into a product. To productize what I have done would take much more time, effort and money. None of which I'm particularly interested in doing. In fact if someone wanted to produce things I have come up with, I would not have a problem with it. I don't consider anything I've done so far to be unique or particularly difficult.

From my perspective I am out to share my experiences and lessons learned with others. I want to see more people doing Subaru conversions and I want to supply answers to as many of the frustrating issues as possible. I have this perspective because for me this is a hobby. If I were out to make money I _might_ have a different perspective.

In the business of engine conversions there seems to be a spectrum of perspectives. Outback motors comes to mind as a company who advertises their openness with technical information. People tend to like this.

I suppose it has something to do with the market you are after. If you are after the do-it-yourselfer, then providing all that information is a benefit, becaue it attracts customers. If you are looking for customers to hand you their car and do the work for you then its not really in your interest to make doing it yourself any easier. It pushes more people into the catergory of sending off the car to be converted. If some problem seems insurmountable, then your specialized knowledge is worth a lot more.

I certainly am in no position to question or criticize Renegad Hybrid's business strategy or methods. However I do think that what I have contributed to the Subaru conversion 'movement' is good for their business. Many people look at my thread and say "damn thats a lot of work." The other day there was a thread which included a comment to that effect. So not only am I popularizing the Subaru conversion simply by persistence of its existence here, but I am also demonstrating that its really time consuming and requires a fair amount of obsession to do this on your own.

I'm assuming Scott knew nothing of me, or who I am. To me it doesn't really matter.

There have been many good points made in this thread, and I appreciate the support. I didn't realize so many people were such fans of my work.

If Scott chooses not to respond to this thread, I don't hold it against him. I was humiliated in a public place and I wanted to respond publicly. I'm not the kind of person to tell someone to go fuck themself, or to escalate a scene. But I will not allow myself to be humiliated without a response.

-Tony

Alrighty then!

Sorry, my daughter dropped my camera after this so no more pics...

Protecting one's accomplishments or business is understandable but it should be done respectfully. A simple sign "do not photograph conversion parts" and someone pointing to it would have sufficed.

Sorry you had to take this abuse Tony. Just feel good someone felt your talent as a threat.

Felix, you are a bad boy! lol.