One of the things I was most looking forward to at today's German Autofest was talking with Keith (WRX914), BJ (CrazyHippy) at the Renegade booth about Subaru conversion stuff, and my project. So I go over to the Renegade booth and start talking about why my car wasn't here, problems I'm having etc. I was explaining how my vehicle speed sensor is malfunctioning and one of the people I was talking to said "have a look under here and see what they did." So I get on my knees and look under the car, and pull out my camera, so I can take a look at it later and think about it. This same sort of taking-pictures-of-the-underside-of-cars took place probably 1000 times today at the GAF. People with cameras everywhere. Usually manufacturers like to show off their stuff. It didn't even cross my mind once that what I was doing was unwelcome or out of line.

Just as my finger is about to push the button this voice from above tells me something very very similar to "NO! Get up, get off your knees, I own proprietary rights to that and I'll have you escorted out of here." This sort of dialoue continued for a few sentances more. Stuned, I get up and stand there wondering what the hell is going on. He then insists I show him the pictures I've taken to make sure I don't have any pictures of the underside of a car that doesn't belong to him, and is being shown at a CAR SHOW.

Then I realize that he must have been concerned that I was taking pictures of his oh-so-secret engine support system and that I was going to go off and start competing with him by copying his design.

There were somewhere around 5-10 people standing around watching this whole scene unfold. I never ever expected treatment like this from anyone, especially a vendor. I was totally embarassed in front of my friends, not to mention harassed by this guy. So I stayed there talking with the other guys for another 20 minutes or so. All of them were very friendly and helpful. Not once during that entire time did I get an apology, explanation or otherwise from Scott.

So I can only speculate as to why he was so upset, but I'll keep that to myself.

In any case I used to reccomend Renegade Hybrids to people thinking of doing conversions. There have been many posts where I specifically say good things about Renegade products, but that is no more. After being treated like that by a key representative of their company, I will reccomend them no more.



-Tony

that sucks....I've never heard of anything like that happening at a car show before.

if you need any advice on speed sensors let me know.

No man likes to be made a bitch. I hate shit like that. My question to him would be where is the sign?

You should feel stunned. You did nothing wrong at all. I have had many discussions with both owners of Renegade, including Scott. They are extremely protective of their "super secret" conversion pieces and have crossed the line with that type of behavior. Sounds like a scene behind the Berlin Wall Circa 1967..."Hey! STOP! guns pointed, german shepards growling in the background..." Scott was the same guy that told me it was impossible to place an LS1/LS6 in a 914. My response was, "That's funny...I've been driving my LS6 converted car for a few years now already..." WTF

If you need any info, photos or assitance with the speed sensor, send Scott thatcher a email. He did his conversion before Renegade. I watched him mod his speed sensor in the hotel parking lot at the WCC. He'll help ya.

unfortunately, that stunt done in front of an audience will probably make prospective buyers think twice..... hope you get an apology or something, because it is a tight nit community, and they will probably lose some business.

its their booth, at least act professional enough to sell a product LOL

cant sell a product if you dont know what it looks like!

i designed the subie speed sensor setup used on the renegade kit. it works great and I would be happy to help you out.

very cool dana...

that's just crap...I did see on their website that they didn't have pictures for a reason...it doesn't take a genious to make your own mount anyways...I am now considering doing that myself...I just wanted to go with the renegade kit so I didn't have to bother with making my own mount...who knows

sorry to hear about this experience...

coming from a suby background, I've heard of many subaru vendors making asses of themselves at places such as SEMA...companies with high end parts too...that picked a lousy, douchebag representative...not that that's what renegade's are like, but just as an example that if you want business you need to support you customers in a more professional way

shame

Thanks Dana. I appreciate it. I don't mean to hurt Renegade's business. But I do feel wronged by Scott. I know the rest of you guys are cool.

-Tony

what a dickwad...... if you don't want your design to be seen, then don't take it to the damn car-show.

renegade then! errogant pos.

I hope their sales plummet. I've got more of a temper, I'd have told that guy what was on my mind. Pi$$es me off just sitting here.

I would have called his bluff. Escorted out? LOL!

That's a bitch Tony.

Now I'm gonna keep the /6 in my car for sure...

Andy

OhOh

That sucks, a simple fucking sign "no pictures please" would have avoided this.

Their loss

Later

Tony,

I am very sorry, I was standing there when it happened! I was shocked as well. If I would known you by face I would have jumped in. I met Keith at the show and I was very impressed with him and his car. I know Keith would have been shocked as well. Keith is very friendly and an asset to the club. You can photograph the car and it's components outside the booth without any proprietary rights problems. I know you by face now. It is not my style to standby and watch this type of behavior towards family or friends. I truly am sorry.


Dan

PS Keith has a beautiful machine!

What was he doing at a car SHOW?? So if you buy his conversion kit, do you have to sign a contract that you won't let anyone look under your car?

If the design is that genius, then a patent should cover it. Chasing people away only does harm to their reputation. Letting people see and talk about it would help their business. The potential risk of someone stealing the design isn't worth that particular battle. Treat people well, protect your intellectual property, move on, do business, build a reputation.

Dude, if I would have seen him talk to you like that I would have verbally cut him down before you had a chance to be unstunned. Not cool.

Ha, Dan probably thought you were the guy from Napoleon Dynamite

I had dinner with the Renegade reps, as well as Brad and Joe Sharp some gal that kept whispering "I want your gasburners" in my ear....anyways, it was an interesting test of egos.

Joe was nice enuff to pick up the dessert tab...I think....we asked for the check and the guy said Joe paid...so Joe...if you didn't mean too.....thanks anyways.

I got a few shots in on the Renegade guys at dinner while getting barbs back....I think I came out on top.....

I'm surprised to hear about this issue....hope someone does the right thing. Bad raps are hard to live down.

That was a bad move, you subie guys have been multiplying like rabbits around

here. Talk about kicking yourself in the nutz. If someone wants a pic of under

there car all they have to do is follow one of their customers home. "Duh".

I know, ask AutoAtlanta....

Tony, that's lousy and rude. What are these people thinking? You've done so much to up the Suby interest here....

Man if any of you ever take pictures of my car's underside, *I* would be shocked.

I would be honored if someone was intrested in something, not yelling at them.

That makes NO business sense.

b

I'm still a young diehard subaru conversion guy...the "subaru + 914" or "ej-series 914" legacy will live strong...give me a year or two and I'll be another tony...I hope

Wow, That's a shame. I was following Keiths car over to Howards and I am really impressed with the Subie performance, this kind of attitude from Renegade could really hurt them.

I'm sure Keith would not have been happy to hear what happened.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but I would have told the nice gent to go fuch his self somewhere else while I took the pics that I wanted and then quietly left.

Nuff said.

EvilWerks is now gonna offer a new thing for your car. The only condition is you are not allowed to view it or show it to anyone. Just believe that it is there and it is great and worth the price.

Please send $1000 to my special Cayman account

You got Paypal, How will I know when and if I've received it?

Is that the Emperior's new and improved tranny turbo? Never seen one myself.

Thats completly lame.
All though its doesnt surpize me after talking to the guy, trying to find out if they had an adaptor for an alum 5.3

Between KEP and the sandrail market I think most of the answers and products can be found for putting all kinds of engines in a midengine setup to a 901.
There is a ton of subby powed sandrails out there.

Of course if you looking for a "bolt in" conversion" you are limited.

... wrong thread.....

hate to stir the pot but the 914 really didn't have much "porsche spirit" to start with,hence the NARP stickers!
sorry, I have been way to diplomatic on this thread, had to piss someone off!

I saw what happened, but I was pretty far away, so I didn't get the drift of it until I read this post.
I just sent renegade hybrids an email entitled "Scott's bad behavior in Ventura".
Hopefully others at the company will see it.

he is not a member of the non-club, I will be in there sometime this week and will show him this thread. it is always nice to hear both sides of a story.

Just sent an email to Scott @ RenegadeHybrids. Hopefully he'll pop in and defend himself.

I can sympathize with them trying to capitalize on their development. But in reality they aren't selling parts. They're selling CONVENIENCE. They're not going to get the build-it-yourself people EVER, they're going to get the people who would rather get a turn key conversion, or buy a no-guess-work conversion package. If I were them I would sell a conversion manual with dimensions to their stuff for $50. They can't protect the cars of their customers, unless the customers sign a non-disclosure agreement. Which is ludicrous as well. I can't imagine being told that I can't show off my new conversion without penalty.

Of course, this is all only speculation and I hope Scott can stop in and inform us. But regarless, Tony was treated poorly by Renegade, and that's not right. Definitely a dark spot on any reference I would give. Even business should show a little respect.

Lets see:

* Front suspension designed by Porsche

* Rear suspension designed by Porsche

* Trans designed by...come on you can say it.....Porsche

* Body designed by Porsche/ built by Karman (builders of many great Porsche's)

I am putting a early 911 front suspension in my 74 and noticed that the

calipers from both are almost identical *Brakes .........Porsche could be.

Besides Porsche spirit doesn't come from the factory it comes from Porsche owners, and we know better.

Defence Rests.

I'm surprised at Scott's behavior...when I visited the shop in Vegas there wasn't anything I couldn't look at or ask questions about.....

Any car in a public place is "public domain" for taking pictures of it and it's occupants. You can take all the pictures of it you wanted as long as you don't damage it while doing so.

72hp engine designed by vw....
I was refering to the subaru engine swap and the whole dilution thing.
although I know my stock engine did drip a lot of "spirit" on my driveway!
to each there own

I always thought it was designed by Porsche and manufactured by VW.......and the drip is also a factory design....if it's not dripping, your out of oil.

sorry tony.

Just like a Harley and a bad dog they mark there spot.

The basic design of that engine has not changed sense before WWII and lets

see who was it that designed it..... oh yah it's that P word again.

I'm dumb, stock 914s rule. lets get back on track here.

Just hackin on ya 37, nothing personal.

You worked with them, that is not a normal reaction is it? Was he PMSing or

something and went against company policy?

Very interesting thread.

I know how I would have handled it had I been standing there with you.

Sorry to hear about this.



B

renegade has had a lot of design ideas ripped off in the past. scott was probably just worried about pictures of the kit ending up on the internet. I was not there so I don't even know what his reaction was. Scott has always been good with customers in my experience.

Well, what the guy did was wrong. However, I would have asked before trying to take the pictures.

A few years ago, I had a fellow Vanagon enthusiast sent me copies of Marty's MSDS Inc. 3.2 conversion manual for Vanagons for publication in my webpage. The kit was already out of production. I asked Marty before publishing as it was still sensiitive intellectual property IMHO. Marty declined to permit publication. The documents went in a dead file at my desk where it has remained.

I have a Vanagon with a 2.2 EJT behind a auto trans. It's nice and fast and reasonably reliable. I kept it quite for a while as I preach against cross-species engine swaps. It's certainly not for everybody -- but that's another story. Anyway, vendors for Subie Vanagon swaps are generally not so secretive as evidenced by their participation in the SubaruVanagon conversion forums. However, there are a couple out there who are as defensive as this guy from Renegade Hybrids. We're supposed to ignore the fact that they are knocking off (with some modifications) a part originally designed by KEP. This is not rocket science as many of you have already pointed out.

I am trying to defend the guy. I still feel asking first would have avoided this incident altogether. That said, I would not have stood still without saying something in rebuttal. It helps to have your attorney's business cards on hand and ex-marine buddy who can break most guys in half.

BenT

Thank you for sharing your story. It's unfortunate that it happend to you, but honesty like yours is refreshing.

Cheers,
Rusty

Tony,

Remember seeing me right after you walked out of the renegade area.

And you and Iwere talking next to the full bodied old school Porsche racer?

The look on your face when you told me that story was priceless.

I wish I had a camera for that moment.

Dude....... Have some fun with it now..... Cause the moment is over.

Regards,
Clayton